So, genuine question here....is there really a big difference between keeping one man's name (my father's) or taking a new man's name (my husband's)?? Would it be any different, or any more fair, if it was the woman's name that was handed down? We live in a society that has given names and surnames, and that surname has to come from somewhere. Does it matter where? Not trying to be snarky at all, this is a genuine question intended to spark some debate.
I really hate this argument. I understand it on its face, but you have to ignore a lot of important points in order to make this argument with a straight face, and it reeks of, "well--you're going to have some dude's name either way, so you might as well just shut up and embrace it!"
Yeah, I have my dad's name, but whether or not children should default to their fathers' names is a separate argument (one worth having, yes--but separate). You have to start somewhere, and I start by keeping my own goddamn name. It's the name I've had all my life--aside from that starter marriage 20+ years ago that flamed out super-fast--and, like most men, my name is important to me. There's a lot of family history and sentiment tied up there, which, presumably, is why men always insist that it's so important that their name carries into a marriage and family.
I've yet to have anyone offer a cogent argument for why it's so very important for a man to be able to hang on to his name while I'm supposed to give no fucks about my own name and treat as disposable.
I don't think it's unfair. A woman doesn't have to change her name if she doesn't want to. As long as a woman can choose to do it or not, I don't see how it can be "unfair."
I mean, is it unfortunate that some women are expected to go by their husband's name? I guess. I don't have my husband's name, and other than short-lived confusion until I can explain that we have different names, I have had zero issues.
Genuine question.. What about her children?
I kept my name. It was my mother's last name and it's one of the few things from her that I have so it was important to me to keep it. (Also it is awesome.) We gave my daughter my last name and my son has H's last name. Seemed fair.
I remember lovedan's cousin I think, who also was a nestie, lived in Portland, and had short hair? She and her husband changed both their names to something unique to them? Like, they created a new last name for their unit. I thought that was cool.
Post by pantsparty on May 29, 2014 14:20:27 GMT -5
I don't know why, but the use of "fair" is bugging me in context of this argument. It's a childish term. Also, my first instinct is to say, "LIFE'S NOT FAIR!" LOL.
I was thinking this. Going back to women being property, if I keep my name don't I just stay my dad's "property"?
Sorta, but only because the default in our society is patriarchal naming. If you were Icelandic, this wouldn't be an issue. My name from birth felt more MINE than did my husband's, regardless of the fact that it came from my father and not from my mother. Again, I don't really care what other people do, only that they care what I do. Lol.
And your feminist studies professor was an asshole.
No man, Icelandic names are the height of patriarchy! You don't change when you get married, but you are literally labeled as your father's daughter forever. Occasionally people go by Mothersdottir or Mothersson, but it isn't common.
That's part of why I changed my name. My maiden name was Icelandic, but it wasn't even what my Icelandic name would be, it was my dads so it didn't even make sense. I was basically Rupert Paternalgradfathersson.
My cousin is having a pretty hard time because she is in a committed relationship with a man who did not wish to marry. He has always been upfront about this and she chose to continue in an otherwise wonderful relationship and have a child together. She also chose to give the child his last name. Now, she's lamenting that she and her son have different last names and it bothered her recently when she completed day care paperwork.
So, tell your students it's complicated.
You can also tell your students that I told her to go ahead and use whatever name she wants on paperwork. I am married and I use my maiden and married name interchangeably. I've mostly settled on marriedLastName but no day care provider or school ever made me produce documentation that I changed my name. In the US, as long as you are not doing it to perpetrate a fraud, you can use whatever last name you want. I still pay my taxes, register my car, and use my driver's license in my legal name - but it doesn't matter what my LinkedIn account says.
Unless someone is being forced to change their name, then there's nothing unfair about it. Either change your name or dont? What's unfair about that?
What's unfair is the automatic assumption that when you get married, you "must" change your name, just because you're a woman. What's unfair is, if you choose to keep your name, you're constantly having to provide proof that you are a member of the H's family unit in regards to important decisions (would I honestly give a shit about bringing my marriage certificate to the hospital upon finding out H was in a serious car accident and I wasn't home when I found out about it?) and you're getting dirty, judgmental looks from those close to you, despite knowing your insistence on the whole thing and allegedly supporting you on it, because "it's just the way it goes". It's unfair that, while men are seemingly getting more tolerant of a woman keeping her name, they put their foot down that the children his last name and then more dirty looks because "how dare you not have the same name as your own children?"
I know it varies from country to country, but I'm talking about the U.S., where it's ASSumed in 95% of cases that the woman will take her H's last name and the shame that they attempt to inflict on you for wanting to keep the name you've had and have been identified as since birth.
I changed my name to DH's and I am never giving it up, even if we didn't stay married. I it was important to me that my family unit have the symbolic cohesion of a common last name. I wanted DH, me and our kids to all have the same name and I really didn't care what it was. DH just happened to have the better last name. My maiden name was a derogatory word for a female. I couldn't wait to give it up.
Post by underwaterrhymes on May 30, 2014 6:59:45 GMT -5
I think it's unfair when it's expected or when women are shamed or mocked for keeping their name.
But ultimately, it is a choice. I'd like to see more and more people bucking the tradition.
I was not one of them because I disliked my maiden name. (My married name isn't a whole lot better. H and I joked about combining them for a truly awesome last name, but in the end I changed it.)
My wedding photographer, though, took his wife's last name. I think that is awesome. If mine had been better, I would have tried to persuade H to take mine.
Post by irishbride2 on May 30, 2014 7:06:52 GMT -5
I think the laws are unfair (in many states). In many states, it is easy for a woman to change with marriage but it takes a court order for man to do so. That is not fair.
The fact that most of society expects women to change their name is not fair.
People who judge women who do not change their name...that is not fair.
But simply changing your name? That isn't fair or unfair. It just is. I changed my name. That is not "unfair." The system is.
I think I'm confused by the wording of your question.
I don't care what other people do, it doesn't affect my choice frankly. I chose to take my husband's name, for several reasons, one being that it is WAY easier to spell than my maiden name. Our daughter has his name too.
I think kids with hyphenated names will get complicated in the long run…it's not a bad thing, I just don't know how you keep it up, generation after generation.
From a work perspective I have had to learn to look carefully at the cards that have students' details on them so that I can make sure that if I call a mother or father I use the right name since it isn't always the same name as their child.
What I thought was unfair was that sometimes there is a cost to change your name. I ran into this for passport (so I never changed it), car registration (so I never changed it), and something else I can't recall. I was pissed that I had to pay money when my H didn't. Which I guess all came out of the same pot, but whatever. It just seemed unfair.
It is a lot of extra work to change your name, and that's kind of unfair too.
As a side note, I didn't realize this wasn't a standard practice outside of the US/Canada. I think it's normal in England too? I guess IDK about other cultures but I thought it was kind of the norm everywhere. No?
Most of the women in the UK I know, change their names. Most Dutch hyphenate.
The Belgians do not have the right to change, but most women use their husband's name if they have children (for school etc). It is now allowed by law to give a child also the mother's surname or to join both parents' names, but only if the husband agrees (this makes me angry). For children out of mariage, the father needs to recognize them in order to give them his name, but I think the mother may object.
I do not have children, but I would never use another name than mine (just my opinion, not judging).
Just pitch it as a lesson in cultural/historical differences. "In America, most women change their name but more women nowadays aren't. In Iceland, people add -son or -dottir to their father's name so a brother and sister will have different surnames. Here in Spain..."
Boom, done.
I am not about to read 3 pages of people justifying their choice to themselves and the rest of the board.
I don't know why, but the use of "fair" is bugging me in context of this argument. It's a childish term. Also, my first instinct is to say, "LIFE'S NOT FAIR!" LOL.