Sexism in Doctor Who

[mabillon]

I found this linked from previously.tv, basically, university students used the Bechdel test to evaluate the sexism in Doctor Who episodes, sorting by companion and the Davis vs. Moffat years.  I'm including the infographic cause it's cool but the whole blog posting is worth a read too.

Interestingly, though I loved Matt Smith's Doctor almost as much as David Tennant's, I never really cared for Amy Pond and LOOOOOOOOVED and have long missed Donna Noble.  I like River too but perhaps I just like talky funny women.

[Dumbledork]

I wonder if the fact that Amy shared the companion spot with Rory for the most part, and occasionally River, affects her score. Sure Rose, Martha and Donna shared their companion spots with Jack, Mickey and other randoms, but I don't think they were as constant as Rory, or the combination of Rory and River.

She'd have less screen/conversation time than say, Donna, because she's sharing it with others more often. She'd also be more likely to share a scene with her husband than another female that is guest starring in that episode like Donna might. Does that make sense?

That said, Amy and Donna are my favorite companions and River is my favorite love interest.

[Dumbledork]

I mean, Hermione Granger is one kick-ass fictional female character. A total BAMF, and unlike maybe some other kick ass fictional female characters, like Buffy or Wonder Woman, she does most of it with her bod covered in wizard robes, her hair bushy instead of slick or styled, and her nose stuck in a book. I'm all for women wearing what they want whatever it may be, but it's nice to see that women can be kick ass without also being a sex symbol and, honestly, it's nice to see a girl have a relationship with a non-related boy and have it not be at all romantic.

Still, I imagine HP1-7 fails the Bechdel test in a blaze of glory. I imagine the scenes where she isn't discussing one boy or another (Ron, The Chosen One and his destiny, Voldemort, Dumbledore, Draco) are nearly non-existent. Does that make her less of a role model for girls?

Is HP sexist?

[dr.girlfriend]

Jun 4, 2014 0:24:24 GMT -5 Dumbledork said:

Is HP sexist?

I'm only a casual Harry Potter fan, but...yeah.  I would say the proportion of major male characters to major female characters is WAY off.  Hermione is awesome, Professor McGonagall rocks, and Beatrix and Umbrage were good bad guys, but stack that up against:  Harry, Ron, Fred, George, Neville, Dumbledore, Draco and his two henchmen, Sirius, Snape, Lupin, Voldemort...wizarding is apparently a (white) boy's/man's world. 

[Deleted]

Yeah, I saw that the other day and started reading the blog post but had to stop as I was getting too many spoilers. It doesn't surprise me though, sadly.

I'm just 3 episodes into Donna, who I friggin ADORE. WHY does everyone go on and on about Rose?

[Dumbledork]

Jun 4, 2014 10:47:43 GMT -5 dr.girlfriend said:

Jun 4, 2014 0:24:24 GMT -5 Dumbledork said:

Is HP sexist?

I'm only a casual Harry Potter fan, but...yeah.  I would say the proportion of major male characters to major female characters is WAY off.  Hermione is awesome, Professor McGonagall rocks, and Beatrix and Umbrage were good bad guys, but stack that up against:  Harry, Ron, Fred, George, Neville, Dumbledore, Draco and his two henchmen, Sirius, Snape, Lupin, Voldemort...wizarding is apparently a (white) boy's/man's world. 

Meh… Ginny, Luna, Molly, Tonks, Trelawney, Pansy, etc show up about as much as Fred, George, Neville, Lupin, Draco's henchmen, etc. With the exception of maybe Pansy, they're all strong females who are great role models.

I don't think the fact that, in a story focused on HP vs. V with HP as the main POV, two girls aren't frequently seen chatting about potions class automatically means that the series is sexist. With the way the characters are written and portrayed, I think the reader/viewer should be able to draw their own conclusions about what two females might discuss in their off time. Luna and Hermione are not chatting about what a dreamboat Krum is with the way his hair falls just so in his eyes, at least not often.

And again, I like that Hermione is shown having a male friend where there is zero romantic interest between them and they discuss everything from relationships to Quidditch. I like that it shows a healthy male-female friendship.

[IIOY]

I've noticed this.  Even my husband, who is no raging feminist, commented about the women in Doctor Who being too busy crushing on the Doctor to be substantive characters.  We both adore Donna; she's the best by a mile, and I'm bitter her stint was so short.  Rose can pound sand.

[dr.girlfriend]

Jun 4, 2014 12:11:54 GMT -5 Dumbledork said:

Jun 4, 2014 10:47:43 GMT -5 dr.girlfriend said:

I'm only a casual Harry Potter fan, but...yeah.  I would say the proportion of major male characters to major female characters is WAY off.  Hermione is awesome, Professor McGonagall rocks, and Beatrix and Umbrage were good bad guys, but stack that up against:  Harry, Ron, Fred, George, Neville, Dumbledore, Draco and his two henchmen, Sirius, Snape, Lupin, Voldemort...wizarding is apparently a (white) boy's/man's world. 

Meh… Ginny, Luna, Molly, Tonks, Trelawney, Pansy, etc show up about as much as Fred, George, Neville, Lupin, Draco's henchmen, etc. With the exception of maybe Pansy, they're all strong females who are great role models.

I don't think the fact that, in a story focused on HP vs. V with HP as the main POV, two girls aren't frequently seen chatting about potions class automatically means that the series is sexist. With the way the characters are written and portrayed, I think the reader/viewer should be able to draw their own conclusions about what two females might discuss in their off time. Luna and Hermione are not chatting about what a dreamboat Krum is with the way his hair falls just so in his eyes, at least not often.

And again, I like that Hermione is shown having a male friend where there is zero romantic interest between them and they discuss everything from relationships to Quidditch. I like that it shows a healthy male-female friendship.

Like I said, I'm only a casual fan, but of the women you mentioned, I only know Ginny and Luna. :-) So, my guess would be that the other women you mention don't get as much screen time as you think. Or maybe I'm implicitly sexist and didn't notice them -- always a possibility. When I was trying to think of other women I could think of the Asian girl Harry seemed to like and the LeFleur girl, but since both of those fell in the "love interest" category I didn't see them as being equivalent to the other minor male characters, who seemed to have more of their own agency.

I just randomly googled "Harry Potter cast photo" -- 16 guys and three girls in the first one that came up.



I went to the full cast list for the first movie and counted only "named" characters:  33 guys, 12 girls, and except for Hermione and McGonagall pretty much all the women were in a mother role (Lily Potter, Harry's Aunt) or very obscure characters (Alicia Spinnet?  Katie Bell?).

I think part of the issue is that "white male" is the default. So, you don't really notice, for example, that there's basically two female characters in all of Star Wars stacked up against a billion guys, until someone points it out.  It just seems "normal." Just like it seems "normal" that when female characters exist, they usually are in the mother or love interest role, basically existing (and usually dying) to further the story of the man.

I'm not trying to harsh on your fandom.  I think you can still love something and yet realize that it's problematic in some ways, and I don't think it's a stretch to say the Harry Potter world is not representation at its finest. I mean, Sherlock is probably my biggest fandom, and representation on that show sucks as well.

[niemand88f]

Jun 4, 2014 12:27:16 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I've noticed this.  Even my husband, who is no raging feminist, commented about the women in Doctor Who being too busy crushing on the Doctor to be substantive characters.  We both adore Donna; she's the best by a mile, and I'm bitter her stint was so short.  Rose can pound sand.

This exactly, which is why I'm curious to see how they handle the new doctor who is older. Hopefully they bring in some slightly older companions too (but not for age appropriate crushes!). I named my cat Donna because she's the best companion

[evans]

Jun 4, 2014 12:48:49 GMT -5 dr.girlfriend said:

Jun 4, 2014 12:11:54 GMT -5 Dumbledork said:

Meh… Ginny, Luna, Molly, Tonks, Trelawney, Pansy, etc show up about as much as Fred, George, Neville, Lupin, Draco's henchmen, etc. With the exception of maybe Pansy, they're all strong females who are great role models.

I don't think the fact that, in a story focused on HP vs. V with HP as the main POV, two girls aren't frequently seen chatting about potions class automatically means that the series is sexist. With the way the characters are written and portrayed, I think the reader/viewer should be able to draw their own conclusions about what two females might discuss in their off time. Luna and Hermione are not chatting about what a dreamboat Krum is with the way his hair falls just so in his eyes, at least not often.

And again, I like that Hermione is shown having a male friend where there is zero romantic interest between them and they discuss everything from relationships to Quidditch. I like that it shows a healthy male-female friendship.

Like I said, I'm only a casual fan, but of the women you mentioned, I only know Ginny and Luna. :-) So, my guess would be that the other women you mention don't get as much screen time as you think. Or maybe I'm implicitly sexist and didn't notice them -- always a possibility. When I was trying to think of other women I could think of the Asian girl Harry seemed to like and the LeFleur girl, but since both of those fell in the "love interest" category I didn't see them as being equivalent to the other minor male characters, who seemed to have more of their own agency.

I just randomly googled "Harry Potter cast photo" -- 16 guys and three girls in the first one that came up.



I went to the full cast list for the first movie and counted only "named" characters:  33 guys, 12 girls, and except for Hermione and McGonagall pretty much all the women were in a mother role (Lily Potter, Harry's Aunt) or very obscure characters (Alicia Spinnet?  Katie Bell?).

I think part of the issue is that "white male" is the default. So, you don't really notice, for example, that there's basically two female characters in all of Star Wars stacked up against a billion guys, until someone points it out.  It just seems "normal." Just like it seems "normal" that when female characters exist, they usually are in the mother or love interest role, basically existing (and usually dying) to further the story of the man.

I'm not trying to harsh on your fandom.  I think you can still love something and yet realize that it's problematic in some ways, and I don't think it's a stretch to say the Harry Potter world is not representation at its finest. I mean, Sherlock is probably my biggest fandom, and representation on that show sucks as well.

I swear, Supernatural is the worst with the bold. You think the writers would be tired of writing that by now.

I didn't read the blog yet, but I will.