If you are interested in arbitration and public justice

[ESF]

This article is a must read.

www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/junejulyaugust_2014/features/thrown_out_of_court050661.php?page=all

It's long, but incredibly well researched and well written.  It's a fantastic history and explanation of everything I yell about here all the time.  

I'm really not an insane conspiracy theorist about this stuff, it's real!

[zelda25]

As is the case with most issues I care about (climate change, agriculture/food production, etc.), I feel like not enough people give a shit about this to make a bit of difference and it makes me angry and sad and tired and I don't know what the hell to do.

[ESF]

Jun 10, 2014 10:31:39 GMT -5 zelda25 said:

As is the case with most issues I care about (climate change, agriculture/food production, etc.), I feel like not enough people give a shit about this to make a bit of difference and it makes me angry and sad and tired and I don't know what the hell to do.

It's so hard because you've got decades of anti-lawsuit brainwashing to overcome in convincing the general public, and even if you can do that, the Chamber of Commerce may be the best funded propaganda machine in the United States. I fear that no amount of letter writing to Congress and regular person sized donations to Public Citizen will ever be able to combat the smear campaign that will be unleashed against any elected person that sticks their neck out on this issue.  I am very interested to see what happens to Al Franken, who is one of the few speaking out on this topic, now that he's up for re-election in November.  

It's exhausting.  But like pixy and climate change, I will just bang on this drum as loud as I can every time I have an opportunity until something changes.

Easier things that can be done:
- Oppose any candidate, policy proposal, etc, that is supported by the US Chamber of Commerce.  If it's good for them, you've got a 99.9% chance it's bad for you.  (Some state and local Chambers of Commerce have cut ties with the nationwide group because of how horrible it is for smaller businesses, so a state blessing is not the same as the national blessing.)
- Oppose cuts to the the judiciary branch.  The more broken people perceive it to be, the easier it is to argue in favor of arbitration.
- Public Justice and Public Citizen are two organizations doing excellent work lobbying the government on these issues, and supporting litigation efforts to trying to weaken the protections given to corporations.  

[Deleted]

I'm just posting so I can find this easily later to read it!

[ttt]

ESF I just want you to know you've recruited me. I knew nothing about this issue before this board and thanks to you I've learned so much about it and talk about it to everyone I know who will listen.

[LoveTrains]

This article was good until it used the example of the woman burnt by hot coffee at mcDonalds as an example of a frivolous lawsuit.

ETA: I wish that it had mentioned that there was merit to that lawsuit and that if somehow she had been forced into arbitration that we would all be unaware of the dangerous practices at McDonalds with regards to their hot coffee. Because I think most of us have seen hot coffee and would state that was not a frivolous lawsuit.

But the rest of the article was solid, albeit long. I do feel that ESF has really helped to educate me on the perils of binding arbitration and I do think that we need to push for change. It's just one more example to me of the "average American" getting screwed no matter how hard they work or try. 

[ttt]

Jun 10, 2014 12:16:40 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

This article was good until it used the example of the woman burnt by hot coffee at mcDonalds as an example of a frivolous lawsuit.

ETA: I wish that it had mentioned that there was merit to that lawsuit and that if somehow she had been forced into arbitration that we would all be unaware of the dangerous practices at McDonalds with regards to their hot coffee. Because I think most of us have seen hot coffee and would state that was not a frivolous lawsuit.

But the rest of the article was solid, albeit long. I do feel that ESF has really helped to educate me on the perils of binding arbitration and I do think that we need to push for change. It's just one more example to me of the "average American" getting screwed no matter how hard they work or try. 

I thought it was just using that as an example of a 'fable' about frivolous lawsuits. It certainly has permeated our culture. 

[LoveTrains]

Jun 10, 2014 12:20:13 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jun 10, 2014 12:16:40 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

This article was good until it used the example of the woman burnt by hot coffee at mcDonalds as an example of a frivolous lawsuit.

ETA: I wish that it had mentioned that there was merit to that lawsuit and that if somehow she had been forced into arbitration that we would all be unaware of the dangerous practices at McDonalds with regards to their hot coffee. Because I think most of us have seen hot coffee and would state that was not a frivolous lawsuit.

But the rest of the article was solid, albeit long. I do feel that ESF has really helped to educate me on the perils of binding arbitration and I do think that we need to push for change. It's just one more example to me of the "average American" getting screwed no matter how hard they work or try. 

I thought it was just using that as an example of a 'fable' about frivolous lawsuits. It certainly has permeated our culture. 

You could be right, maybe I just misinterpreted it. But I still think that many, many americans would use that as an example of a frivolous lawsuit when I would wholeheartedly disagree. I made my H watch "hot coffee" after he kept saying it was frivolous. 

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2014 12:15:01 GMT -5 ttt said:

ESF I just want you to know you've recruited me. I knew nothing about this issue before this board and thanks to you I've learned so much about it and talk about it to everyone I know who will listen.

I talk about it to people but by the time I've regurgitated what ESF has said, I've mangled it to such an extent that it just sounds ridiculous.

"so, there was this thing with American Express.  And....SCOTUS screwed us."

H is like, "cool story." 

so then I have to pull up her actual posts and read them to him and then I think he is more intrigued, but he knows that I dont really know what I'm talking about

[zelda25]

Jun 10, 2014 12:26:34 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

Jun 10, 2014 12:20:13 GMT -5 ttt said:

I thought it was just using that as an example of a 'fable' about frivolous lawsuits. It certainly has permeated our culture. 

You could be right, maybe I just misinterpreted it. But I still think that many, many americans would use that as an example of a frivolous lawsuit when I would wholeheartedly disagree. I made my H watch "hot coffee" after he kept saying it was frivolous. 

You misinterpreted it; it's mentioned to illustrate how Americans have come to believe that the country is rife with stupid people filing gazillions of stupid, frivolous lawsuits, which is why people who don't know better are quick to get on the "tort reform!" bandwagon even though they don't really know what it means. And that's why arbitration has been allowed to proliferate, quietly removing our ability to recover any meaningful financial damages from corporations that misbehave. That was the point of Hot Coffee.

[LoveTrains]

I don't know, I still think she should mention that the mcdonalds coffee wasn't frivolous. I don't think just by saying that it is fabled lawsuit and lumping it in with that budweiser lawsuit (which I don't know much about but sounds frivolous) doesn't help to clear up the confusion amongst the general public about the merits of the case.

And yes, I did watch hot coffee and was appalled at the arbitration stuff, the stuff with halliburton, etc.

[zelda25]

Jun 10, 2014 12:49:37 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I don't know, I still think she should mention that the mcdonalds coffee wasn't frivolous. I don't think just by saying that it is fabled lawsuit and lumping it in with that budweiser lawsuit (which I don't know much about but sounds frivolous) doesn't help to clear up the confusion amongst the general public about the merits of the case.

And yes, I did watch hot coffee and was appalled at the arbitration stuff, the stuff with halliburton, etc.

The point of the article is not to debate the merits of particular lawsuits, but simply to trace how we got this point; how it came to be that Americans are perfectly happy to give up their rights to any meaningful recourse. In that context, it makes sense.

[LoveTrains]

I personally felt that the use of that lawsuit detracted from the article. You are welcome to disagree (as you do). I think overall the article is good and we should all be aware of the arbitration issue. I don't want to lose sight of the bigger picture by arguing over one tiny use of one lawsuit in the article. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but whatever, I still think it would have been appropriate to point out that said mcdonalds lawsuit was not frivolous and that statement would have strengthened the article overall.

[ESF]

Jun 10, 2014 13:01:50 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I personally felt that the use of that lawsuit detracted from the article. You are welcome to disagree (as you do). I think overall the article is good and we should all be aware of the arbitration issue. I don't want to lose sight of the bigger picture by arguing over one tiny use of one lawsuit in the article. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but whatever, I still think it would have been appropriate to point out that said mcdonalds lawsuit was not frivolous and that statement would have strengthened the article overall.

It actually stopped me in my tracks.  I think it was intended to be used as the others mentioned, but that could have been made more clear, as many people reading the article might not have understood the nuance.

I'm so happy I'm converting people on this.  It's one of those complex issues that doesn't work as a soundbite, so it's so hard to get people worked up.  If I can get a few people convinced, I feel like I've accomplished something in my hours of wasted time on the internet.  

[PinkSquirrel]

Ugh why is everything so broken.


I have a semi unrelated question, but it's related to avoiding the Chamber of Commerce, so kind of related. We do a lot of international business and there are some customers that insist on getting a commercial invoice notarized by the Chamber of Commerce. It used to be no biggie because they would do it for free on the rare occasion I needed it done, but about 5 years ago they decided they were going to require you to be a member in order to get the stamp. I convinced them to do it once for free after they change their policy, but had to do some major bullshitting about potentially joining to make it happen and they were clear it was the last time. Since then, I've decided to charge customers $500 for the certificate with a stamp from the Chamber of Commerce, which has worked out perfectly so far, but I know that won't last forever. How the hell do I avoid them?