I think what's important to remember here too is that many boomers or such who began businesses likely did so without staggering amounts of student loan debt and in a real estate market in which rent didn't take most of your money.
My father came to this country, put himself through private college bagging groceries, worked through graduate school and began a business that still runs today. He worked damn hard to do it, but even I know that it would be substantially more difficult to do what he did today.
He's also incredibly liberal for being old and comfortably wealthy.
No, I think the problem is you hear him say "you didn't do this by yourself." I hear him say "you didn't do anything more than anyone else." So my argument isn't that SBOs are an island, my argument is that SBOs have to be willing to swim in a new area, while people like me prefer to swim where it's safe. We may swim the same distance, but the SBO takes the path of greater risk, and deserves to be rewarded more than me if they don't get eaten by Jaws.
I think that's a hearing problem that you are intrepreting what you hear from the quote, but that can be worked out in couples counseling with a third party helping you decipher what you hear vs. what they say.
Honestly though, what "rewards" should SBOs get for being so willing to take on risk? Are they the financial rewards of success?
I can't believe I'm agreeing with kateaggie I think it takes both a supportive govt and an entrepreneur to make a business work. Govt creates business- friendly policies and support, but at the end of the day, the entrepreneur is risking almost EVERYTHING to make a business work. So while I do agree with what obama said in its full context, I think he's not giving business owners enough credit, either.
I'm not completely disagreeing with her either. All I'm saying is that, there was a level of help here. Again, this goes back to the Bootstraps mentality of Ain't Nobody HELP ME!!!!!!!!!! And that's just not entirely the case - SBOs, local tax incentives, Federal tax incentives, the ability to write off loss on your taxes, consumers, family support, etc. are needed to get your SBO off the ground.
I'd like to say ain't nobody help me either - but it's not true. The women who fought to get the right to vote, suffragists, the black folk who came before me and paved the way, the professor that gave me a recommendation ... etc., etc. Yes, I interviewed. Yes I did the work, but someone was a mentor and gave me a helping hand.
I don't know why we are so adverse to this.
anybody realizing that this thread is curving into the one about Marissa Mayer...
Apparently, she isn't standing on the shoulders of feminist women who...
...got women no longer being the property of their husbands and fathers.
...got women the vote.
...got women wage equality.
...got women equality of educational opportunity.
...got women workplace protection from sexual harassment.
...got women maternity leave and family leave benefits.
etc.
She did it all on her own, so she doesn't have to lump herself in with a bunch of flannel-wearing, mullet-having, bull-dykey "feminists"... the same way that the prophetic "small business owners" do it all by their very lonesome.
I chuckle at all of this because without someone buying your product, you don't have a successful business. We're arguing over if someone helped the small business owner. Someone helped them alright, the people who buy their stuff and utilize their services.
Anywho, carry on!
This is what I wanted to say, too. Also, what is this great personal risk of which some of you speak? I suppose if you're already wealthy, you might be risking your own money. Everyone else is using credit, or business loans, or finding investors - also known as HELP. In those first few years, when you're still starting up and building a client base, you get to claim business expenses and loses on your taxes - also known as HELP.
This whole conversation is ridiculous. If it were possible to have a successful business all by your lonesome with no help from absolutely anyone, I'd be a fucking miillionaire right now. But I need capital, and customers, and suppliers, and a little tax relief if I take a loss the first year. Not to mention the support of my family and friends.
No, I think the problem is you hear him say "you didn't do this by yourself." I hear him say "you didn't do anything more than anyone else."
Really, this all just boils down to if you like Obama or not.
What I'm hearing him say in his quote is "Wake the eff up, it's not all about you!" Or maybe that's just what I've been wanting to tell some people in my life recently.
No, I think the problem is you hear him say "you didn't do this by yourself." I hear him say "you didn't do anything more than anyone else." So my argument isn't that SBOs are an island, my argument is that SBOs have to be willing to swim in a new area, while people like me prefer to swim where it's safe. We may swim the same distance, but the SBO takes the path of greater risk, and deserves to be rewarded more than me if they don't get eaten by Jaws.
Jumping in late here, but I think this is where the legitimate disagreement comes in. I think we can all agree that no one makes a small business successful on their own. They have help from government, consumers, infrastructure, etc. But the real disagreement comes in when we talk about how much a successful small business owes society for their help in making the business successful. Some would argue that because of the inherent risk in building a small business, if that business becomes wildly successful, the SBO does not have to contribute as much to society (in the form of taxes for example) as a reward for taking the risk. Others would argue that if you benefit more from society, regardless of the risk you took, you have the obligation to contribute more toward society because they helped you become as successful as you did.
Personally, I'm in the latter camp, but I can see both sides.
methinks meg is espousing the glory of what she THINKS her father deals with, but the reality is much more "shared" than she realizes.
This is what I'm getting at, really.
The government is so intertwined into our every day lives (which is both good and bad) that saying wholesale that a business owner hasn't had any help at all is just shooting your argument in the foot and shows a lack of being able to look at the big picture. Whether people realize it or not, the government DOES help small business owners, and I'm not talking about the infrastructure that enables the business to run.
Nobody is saying a business owner owns their own success "completely." The debate is over how much of the rewards from that success is due back to the collective that contributes. Throwing the "successful rich people hate poor people" because "bootstraps" and "get off your ass and work a little harder" rhetoric doesn't contribute at all to what is an important topic in the E12 debate. It's this type of rhetoric that divides and completely destorys and potential for a thoughtful, albeit passionate, discussion.
I think first graders somewhere may think this. For everyone else, ummm yeah it's damn obvious roads and bridges help everyone. There were so many obnoxious parts to his speech and that one stood out to me first. He sounds more like a first grade teacher than a President. It's absurd (but typical) to turn this into class warfare. Almost everyone contributes to society by using existing things. You don't have to invent something from scratch, or start a brand new business, or be a CEO to contribute. A janitor keeps a business running too. Cleaning dog shit off the streets contributes to society and the economy. Instead of being grateful to the people for contributing to society and the government, Obama's political worldview is that there is a government and the people should be grateful to it. Because with out the government, we're nothing. No really Obama, without the people working, communicating, generally living their lives connecting with people and things we'd have no need for roads and bridges.
No, I think the problem is you hear him say "you didn't do this by yourself." I hear him say "you didn't do anything more than anyone else."
Where do you get that he is saying that, though? I mean, in the actual quote he credits individual initiative as well as societal help, so I don't understand why some of you are thinking that he is saying no one does more than anyone else.
"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."
No, I think the problem is you hear him say "you didn't do this by yourself." I hear him say "you didn't do anything more than anyone else." So my argument isn't that SBOs are an island, my argument is that SBOs have to be willing to swim in a new area, while people like me prefer to swim where it's safe. We may swim the same distance, but the SBO takes the path of greater risk, and deserves to be rewarded more than me if they don't get eaten by Jaws.
I think that's a hearing problem that you are intrepreting what you hear from the quote, but that can be worked out in couples counseling with a third party helping you decipher what you hear vs. what they say.
Honestly though, what "rewards" should SBOs get for being so willing to take on risk? Are they the financial rewards of success?
[/b]
Absolutely. They fall hard if they fail, so why should they not reap the rewards of their success?
As far as me having a hearing problem..."If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." Does a compliment count if it's backhanded? Not in my world. You're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant more than he said. I take the whole statement at face value, and it reads as placating, not genuine.
Nobody is saying a business owner owns their own success "completely." The debate is over how much of the rewards from that success is due back to the collective that contributes. Throwing the "successful rich people hate poor people" because "bootstraps" and "get off your ass and work a little harder" rhetoric doesn't contribute at all to what is an important topic in the E12 debate. It's this type of rhetoric that divides and completely destorys and potential for a thoughtful, albeit passionate, discussion.
I think first graders somewhere may think this. For everyone else, ummm yeah it's damn obvious roads and bridges help everyone. There were so many obnoxious parts to his speech and that one stood out to me first. He sounds more like a first grade teacher than a President. It's absurd (but typical) to turn this into class warfare. Almost everyone contributes to society by using existing things. You don't have to invent something from scratch, or start a brand new business, or be a CEO to contribute. A janitor keeps a business running too. Cleaning dog shit off the streets contributes to society and the economy. Instead of being grateful to the people for contributing to society and the government, Obama's political worldview is that there is a government and the people should be grateful to it. Because with out the government, we're nothing. No really Obama, without the people working, communicating, generally living their lives connecting with people and things we'd have no need for roads and bridges.
...but it's also the case that, chances are, the business uses a fucklot more of the public services than the janitor does. So why shouldn't they pay more?
Oh and I'm dying that Ayn Rand's philosophy was the politics of government for the past 30 years. That has got to be the most ridiculous assertion I've read on here in months. Let's see, we bailed out and/or created ongoing support programs for auto companies, banks, old people, sick people, poor people, energy companies, manufacturing companies, unions, homeowners, cities and states, children, and farmers, to name a few. Sounds just like John Galt's utopia.
As far as me having a hearing problem..."If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." Does a compliment count if it's backhanded? Not in my world. You're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant more than he said.
Because he SAID MORE than that. We're not assuming, we're listening to the rest of what he said.
I think that's a hearing problem that you are intrepreting what you hear from the quote, but that can be worked out in couples counseling with a third party helping you decipher what you hear vs. what they say.
Honestly though, what "rewards" should SBOs get for being so willing to take on risk? Are they the financial rewards of success?
[/b]
Absolutely. They fall hard if they fail, so why should they not reap the rewards of their success?
As far as me having a hearing problem..."If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." Does a compliment count if it's backhanded? Not in my world. You're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant more than he said. I take the one sentence out of the whole statement at face value, and it reads as placating, not genuine.
[/quote]
I fixed that b/c you are only looking at one sentence not the "whole statement" as you thought.
I'm honestly asking what the "rewards" are that you think SBOs are not getting right now? Is the tax rate bothering you (similar to individuals in most LL companies and lower for corporations)? Is it that they aren't getting government loans at low rates? What "rewards" are not getting to the SBOs?
...but it's also the case that, chances are, the business uses a fucklot more of the public services than the janitor does. So why shouldn't they pay more?
Businesses generally do. Unless you're speaking of Obama's "crony capitalist" policies WRT exemptions from the income tax, which I don't support at all.
As far as me having a hearing problem..."If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." Does a compliment count if it's backhanded? Not in my world. You're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant more than he said.
Because he SAID MORE than that. We're not assuming, we're listening to the rest of what he said.
FYI - Context and the remaining sentences of any statement are to only be applied to Rush Limbaugh. All others are fair game.
KA - That's fine. I get where you are coming from, and I'm cool with it. I'd just like for everyone to say - ok, yeah, we get it it. Let's acknowledge that there was help along the way and our customers made it possible.
I think of it like my favorite singers. Whenever I go to a concert, I love to hear the artist thank me, the fan, for their success. Yeah, I don't get any money, but I like to think that my going out and dropping some $$ on that latest cd helped inspire them to keep doing what they do.
Honestly though, what "rewards" should SBOs get for being so willing to take on risk? Are they the financial rewards of success?
This makes my head explode.
I'd say at minimum financial rewards for spending 60-80 hours per week on trying to make a business grow - in short, making it grow beyond that initial HELP the owner is getting from resources - and be a successful entity that will be around longer than two years is absolutely understandable. A business owner sacrifices their entire life - social, personal, financial, image, familial - to get a foothold, gain patrons and compete in the market. And a subsequent societal benefit to that is if they can employ a staff who can be contributing members of society.
Maybe all SBOs should post a window sign, or have good old government create a logo for them, which clearly communicates to all: "I didn't make this happen all by myself, and I'm damn grateful to everyone who helped me get here and who help me stay here. Please feel my humility from afar."
Absolutely. They fall hard if they fail, so why should they not reap the rewards of their success?
As far as me having a hearing problem..."If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." Does a compliment count if it's backhanded? Not in my world. You're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant more than he said. I take the one sentence out of the whole statement at face value, and it reads as placating, not genuine.
[/quote]
I fixed that b/c you are only looking at one sentence not the "whole statement" as you thought.
I'm honestly asking what the "rewards" are that you think SBOs are not getting right now? Is the tax rate bothering you (similar to individuals in most LL companies and lower for corporations)? Is it that they aren't getting government loans at low rates? What "rewards" are not getting to the SBOs? [/quote]
No, I'm saying that one statement colors everything he says after that. There is a difference. I'm not just pulling out that statement and putting my hands over my ears. From my POV, everything else he's saying sounds apocryphal. Is that in part because I don't like or trust him? Sure. But that's part of politics. I put trust in people you wouldn't, and vice versa.
Maybe all SBOs should post a window sign, or have good old government create a logo for them, which clearly communicates to all: "I didn't make this happen all by myself, and I'm damn grateful to everyone who helped me get here and who help me stay here. Please feel my humility from afar."
LOL. I don't think I'm asking for all of that. But, I do love the Customer Appreciation Events that SBOs often hold.
I think of it like my favorite singers. Whenever I go to a concert, I love to hear the artist thank me, the fan, for their success. Yeah, I don't get any money, but I like to think that my going out and dropping some $$ on that latest cd helped inspire them to keep doing what they do.
I like this too. That's why Obama should be thanking the people of this country. Not downplaying the people's successes by asking us to be the grateful ones.
Maybe all SBOs should post a window sign, or have good old government create a logo for them, which clearly communicates to all: "I didn't make this happen all by myself, and I'm damn grateful to everyone who helped me get here and who help me stay here. Please feel my humility from afar."
LOL. I don't think I'm asking for all of that. But, I do love the Customer Appreciation Events that SBOs often hold.
Gah. You made me laugh and I wanted to continue in my GRRRR vein.
...but it's also the case that, chances are, the business uses a fucklot more of the public services than the janitor does. So why shouldn't they pay more?
Businesses generally do. Unless you're speaking of Obama's "crony capitalist" policies WRT exemptions from the income tax, which I don't support at all.
Corporations are paying a smaller portion of the pie than any time in recent memory.
and two-thirds of corporations pay absolutely nothing in taxes.
...Maybe we should apply the same rationale to them that some "conservatives" want to apply to people, and make them all pay taxes so that they begin to appreciate their government better.
Maybe all SBOs should post a window sign, or have good old government create a logo for them, which clearly communicates to all: "I didn't make this happen all by myself, and I'm damn grateful to everyone who helped me get here and who help me stay here. Please feel my humility from afar."
Ha! Not just business owners. We should all thank the Almighty State every time we back out of our driveways onto the roads they so lovingly laid for us (with our own money). A verbal toll of appreciation.
Maybe all SBOs should post a window sign, or have good old government create a logo for them, which clearly communicates to all: "I didn't make this happen all by myself, and I'm damn grateful to everyone who helped me get here and who help me stay here. Please feel my humility from afar."
Ha! Not just business owners. We should all thank the Almighty State every time we back out of our driveways onto the roads they so lovingly laid for us (with our own money). A verbal toll of appreciation.
Again, I laugh at all of this because, many people do thank the Almighty State when they invite local officials out for ribbon-cuttings of their new office spaces, development sites, etc. LOL ;D
So if a business is successful, it's because of the roads, the teachers, the loan from the bank along with the SBO. But if it fails, it's just the SBO. Got it.
Honestly though, what "rewards" should SBOs get for being so willing to take on risk? Are they the financial rewards of success?
This makes my head explode.
I'd say at minimum financial rewards for spending 60-80 hours per week on trying to make a business grow - in short, making it grow beyond that initial HELP the owner is getting from resources - and be a successful entity that will be around longer than two years is absolutely understandable. A business owner sacrifices their entire life - social, personal, financial, image, familial - to get a foothold, gain patrons and compete in the market. And a subsequent societal benefit to that is if they can employ a staff who can be contributing members of society.
Maybe all SBOs should post a window sign, or have good old government create a logo for them, which clearly communicates to all: "I didn't make this happen all by myself, and I'm damn grateful to everyone who helped me get here and who help me stay here. Please feel my humility from afar."
Ha ha..LOL. I was mostly referring to the fact that I don't think KA knows what 'rewards' she thinks SBOs are missing out on right now.
But I'm a die-hard SBO shopper (spend probably 80% of my shopping in small businesses - including local/farmer food) and we had one that didn't reap the financial benefits for all the time my DH devoted, so I guess I just think she's a little out of touch. And if someone put that sign in their shop, you bet, I'd laugh and go in and buy something.
I am glad people are coming to his aid and deciphering his meaning in a crappily made statement. But, that is why we are not like the rest of the country with our smarts and all. Government does allow for socializing of failure. THAT is a big problem. Obama just doesn't, imo, really want it to change though he pays good lipservice to his constituents that it will (yeah, I went there...I am getting more and more fed up with him and Congress, though I will save my rail against the House and Senate for another thread).
So if a business is successful, it's because of the roads, the teachers, the loan from the bank along with the SBO. But if it fails, it's just the SBO. Got it.
See, and I'd say no to this too. There are a lot of SBOs that can't even get loans. If they don't have any money to put up, they can't get off the ground, that's problematic. That's why I do think you need avenues for SBOs to get the upstart capital.
I just learned a restaurant I visited once closed up shop. That makes me sad, and I kinda kicked myself for not going back and doing more via word of mouth. My food there was pretty dang good. I don't think the location was fantastic, but I'm sad to see they closed. I frequent local restaurants because I think they are vital parts of the community. Same thing with other local businesses. I know as a customer, that I have a part to play in helping them expand. That's why I have no problem spending my money there.
So if a business is successful, it's because of the roads, the teachers, the loan from the bank along with the SBO. But if it fails, it's just the SBO. Got it.
We haven't talked about failure at all in this thread, and I'd be interested to see the viewpoints on that. As is stands, lilm, your statement doesn't flow with the thread.
If a business succeeds on it's own, then does it fail on it's own? Isn't that the flipside of the coin?
Then, logically, if we say that a business depends on society to succeed, then isn't society letting down that business when it fails?