HERE'S ANOTHER RACISM POST!!

[mominatrix]

Can I get that put on a tee shirt?

I love it, and I want everybody to read it.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[downtoearth]

I totally learned two new things... sundown towns can be searched in a pretty inclusive state-by-state database and what baby bonds were. I'd never heard of the 2010 economists idea of Baby Bonds (similar to a UK program) to give $$ to kids born into poverty so they have an account to draw on when they are mature (18+) for college, home purchases, retirement, etc. That seems like a good idea to start breaking the bond of poverty and I'd be interested to read more.

[twotrue]

[iammalcolmx]

Jun 17, 2014 15:00:37 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

www.thefrisky.com/2014-06-12/18-things-white-people-should-knowdo-before-discussing-racism/



4. Reverse racism is BS, but prejudice is not. Until people of color colonize, dominate and enslave the populations of the planet in the name of “superiority,” create standards of beauty based on their own colored definition, enact a system where only people of color benefit on a large-scale, and finally pretend like said system no longer exists, there is no such thing as reverse racism. Prejudice is in all of us, but prejudice employed as a governing structure is something different.

I am seriously about to get up on my desk and APPLAUD!!!

[AJL]

Just shared that and now waiting for the response. Thank you for posting this!

[lasagnasshole]

As someone who lives in a gentrifying area, this one is particularly interesting to me:

9. Realize that segregation is still rampant. Step outside and take a look around your neighborhood. Lacking people of color much? That is called segregation. It is not by chance, though sometimes by choice. (Refer to “redlining” Google search.)

About your neighborhood again: Displacing people of color much? That is called gentrification.
Think about the schools you went to and the classes you had. Not too many minorities in either? (Refer to school segregation/in-school segregation.)

The segregation vs. gentrification issue seems very tricky to me.

[laurenpetro]

ok so i may as well admit it: i didn't know the difference between "reverse racism" and prejudice. i knew enough to know why the former was bullshitty but not how to define it.

so thank you.

[rugbywife]

DH and I got into it with BIL about white privilege on Father's Day. The rest of the family stayed fairly quiet (they don't like to have spirited debates like the three of us do…)…it was brutal, at times I felt like we did a shit job explaining it and then I realized BIL wasn't going to change his mind either way.

[downtoearth]

Jun 17, 2014 15:26:07 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

As someone who lives in a gentrifying area, this one is particularly interesting to me:

9. Realize that segregation is still rampant. Step outside and take a look around your neighborhood. Lacking people of color much? That is called segregation. It is not by chance, though sometimes by choice. (Refer to “redlining” Google search.)

About your neighborhood again: Displacing people of color much? That is called gentrification.
Think about the schools you went to and the classes you had. Not too many minorities in either? (Refer to school segregation/in-school segregation.)

The segregation vs. gentrification issue seems very tricky to me.

Me too.  I feel like a lot of white people, myself included, were seeking out more diverse neighborhoods in our 20s without realizing we were part of gentrification - we had some $ to spend on a little real estate and liked the "diversity" of the neighborhoods, but didn't realize that we would displace generations of families/neighborhoods by beating out others for housing costs or turning traditional rentals into fixer-uppers.  

I think I read that there are VERY short-term benefits during gentrification and increased diversity in neighborhoods (less than 5 years of benefits), but that none of that is sustainable and that it becomes the middle/upper class in urban neighborhoods and turning them predominately white in the long run.

I saw this all in our last gentrified neighborhood. So even local schools become less diverse and living in the area is unattainable to people who originally grew-up there - especially those who cannot purchase homes and rely on renting. This often results in longer commutes/increased commute costs for poorer people who work in urban areas, but have to live somewhere between affluent suburbs and gentrified urban downtowns. Plus, most of those who purchased in the urban area stuck around for 7-10 years until they had kids, sold their houses for more and more to DINKs (housing bubble still hasn't burst there) and then moved to the suburbs anyway when their kids were about 5 years old and they wanted a "more neighborhood feel, better schools, and bigger houses." Very few seem to ride it out in the small, overpriced, gentrified houses when kids arrive. So the neighborhood stays young and hip and less diverse.

[lasagnasshole]

Jun 17, 2014 15:47:21 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jun 17, 2014 15:26:07 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

As someone who lives in a gentrifying area, this one is particularly interesting to me:

9. Realize that segregation is still rampant. Step outside and take a look around your neighborhood. Lacking people of color much? That is called segregation. It is not by chance, though sometimes by choice. (Refer to “redlining” Google search.)

About your neighborhood again: Displacing people of color much? That is called gentrification.
Think about the schools you went to and the classes you had. Not too many minorities in either? (Refer to school segregation/in-school segregation.)

The segregation vs. gentrification issue seems very tricky to me.

Me too.  I feel like a lot of white people, myself included, were seeking out more diverse neighborhoods in our 20s without realizing we were part of gentrification - we had some $ to spend on a little real estate and liked the "diversity" of the neighborhoods, but didn't realize that we would displace generations of families/neighborhoods by beating out others for housing costs or turning traditional rentals into fixer-uppers.  

I think I read that there are VERY short-term benefits during gentrification and increased diversity in neighborhoods (less than 5 years of benefits), but that none of that is sustainable and that it becomes the middle/upper class in urban neighborhoods and turning them predominately white in the long run.

I saw this all in our last gentrified neighborhood. So even local schools become less diverse and living in the area is unattainable to people who originally grew-up there - especially those who cannot purchase homes and rely on renting. This often results in longer commutes/increased commute costs for poorer people who work in urban areas, but have to live somewhere between affluent suburbs and gentrified urban downtowns. Plus, most of those who purchased in the urban area stuck around for 7-10 years until they had kids, sold their houses for more and more to DINKs (housing bubble still hasn't burst there) and then moved to the suburbs anyway when their kids were about 5 years old and they wanted a "more neighborhood feel, better schools, and bigger houses." Very few seem to ride it out in the small, overpriced, gentrified houses when kids arrive. So the neighborhood stays young and hip and less diverse.

I have no idea how this will play out in the long run. I will likely never be able to afford a house in my neighborhood. As far as SFHs go, nothing but a tear-down sells for under $500k. Yet it's still racially diverse and 25% of students at my neighborhood elementary school are homeless.

[NitaX]

Jun 17, 2014 15:26:07 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

As someone who lives in a gentrifying area, this one is particularly interesting to me:

9. Realize that segregation is still rampant. Step outside and take a look around your neighborhood. Lacking people of color much? That is called segregation. It is not by chance, though sometimes by choice. (Refer to “redlining” Google search.)

About your neighborhood again: Displacing people of color much? That is called gentrification.
Think about the schools you went to and the classes you had. Not too many minorities in either? (Refer to school segregation/in-school segregation.)

The segregation vs. gentrification issue seems very tricky to me.

To me it's not. Let me tell you how I saw it happen. Basically, my city decided to revitalize an area. How did they do it? They basically went through and bought everyone out. People who didn't want to move were forced out through eminent domain. after that, those left standing were eventually pushed out because with development came higher property taxes. They couldn't afford it, so the govt just seized their land for back taxes and sold it to someone else. People didn't start really moving into the area until it started to look less like the folks who live there.

That's basically how it plays out - gentrification is how poor people get pushed out of the newest up and coming neighborhood.

Segregation = white flight out of an area into a brand new area. This is always couched around how such and such neighborhood is safe and has a great schools. Those neighborhoods remain primarily white until droves of new black folks move in. Or, in my city's case, once it's annexed. because Memphis = Black People = Annexation = Lots of Black People = Crime. That's the equation, and it continues to happen in other places.

Again, which goes back to me harping on white folks' migration patterns. I loved how in Coates' piece he talks about how black folks making $80,000 a year live in neighborhoods with white folks making $30,000. I'll be damned if I didn't realize that sounds a lot like the area I live in. Sure, I could probably afford a lot more house, but I didn't assume that I could. Instead, I'm hanging out in a working-class community with houses that got hit hard by the market. I'm willing to bet if I lived in a more affluent white community, that hit wouldn't have been as hard. 

To this article -
FUCK YES. ALL OF THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE!

[Wrath0fKuus]

Jun 17, 2014 15:47:21 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jun 17, 2014 15:26:07 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

As someone who lives in a gentrifying area, this one is particularly interesting to me:

9. Realize that segregation is still rampant. Step outside and take a look around your neighborhood. Lacking people of color much? That is called segregation. It is not by chance, though sometimes by choice. (Refer to “redlining” Google search.)

About your neighborhood again: Displacing people of color much? That is called gentrification.
Think about the schools you went to and the classes you had. Not too many minorities in either? (Refer to school segregation/in-school segregation.)

The segregation vs. gentrification issue seems very tricky to me.

Me too.  I feel like a lot of white people, myself included, were seeking out more diverse neighborhoods in our 20s without realizing we were part of gentrification - we had some $ to spend on a little real estate and liked the "diversity" of the neighborhoods, but didn't realize that we would displace generations of families/neighborhoods by beating out others for housing costs or turning traditional rentals into fixer-uppers.  

I think I read that there are VERY short-term benefits during gentrification and increased diversity in neighborhoods (less than 5 years of benefits), but that none of that is sustainable and that it becomes the middle/upper class in urban neighborhoods and turning them predominately white in the long run.

I saw this all in our last gentrified neighborhood. So even local schools become less diverse and living in the area is unattainable to people who originally grew-up there - especially those who cannot purchase homes and rely on renting. This often results in longer commutes/increased commute costs for poorer people who work in urban areas, but have to live somewhere between affluent suburbs and gentrified urban downtowns. Plus, most of those who purchased in the urban area stuck around for 7-10 years until they had kids, sold their houses for more and more to DINKs (housing bubble still hasn't burst there) and then moved to the suburbs anyway when their kids were about 5 years old and they wanted a "more neighborhood feel, better schools, and bigger houses." Very few seem to ride it out in the small, overpriced, gentrified houses when kids arrive. So the neighborhood stays young and hip and less diverse.

As far as income disparity goes, one of the things we do around here is to have section 8 houses (and houses turned into apartments) mixed in with the newly high-price urban homes.  That doesn't do much to help keep things diversified between the extremes of upper-middle and very low incomes, though.

[lasagnasshole]

Jun 17, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Jun 17, 2014 15:26:07 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

As someone who lives in a gentrifying area, this one is particularly interesting to me:

9. Realize that segregation is still rampant. Step outside and take a look around your neighborhood. Lacking people of color much? That is called segregation. It is not by chance, though sometimes by choice. (Refer to “redlining” Google search.)

About your neighborhood again: Displacing people of color much? That is called gentrification.
Think about the schools you went to and the classes you had. Not too many minorities in either? (Refer to school segregation/in-school segregation.)

The segregation vs. gentrification issue seems very tricky to me.

To me it's not. Let me tell you how I saw it happen. Basically, my city decided to revitalize an area. How did they do it? They basically went through and bought everyone out. People who didn't want to move were forced out through eminent domain. after that, those left standing were eventually pushed out because with development came higher property taxes. They couldn't afford it, so the govt just seized their land for back taxes and sold it to someone else. People didn't start really moving into the area until it started to look less like the folks who live there.

That's basically how it plays out - gentrification is how poor people get pushed out of the newest up and coming neighborhood.

Segregation = white flight out of an area into a brand new area. This is always couched around how such and such neighborhood is safe and has a great schools. Those neighborhoods remain primarily white until droves of new black folks move in. Or, in my city's case, once it's annexed. because Memphis = Black People = Annexation = Lots of Black People = Crime. That's the equation, and it continues to happen in other places.

Again, which goes back to me harping on white folks' migration patterns. I loved how in Coates' piece he talks about how black folks making $80,000 a year live in neighborhoods with white folks making $30,000. I'll be damned if I didn't realize that sounds a lot like the area I live in. Sure, I could probably afford a lot more house, but I didn't assume that I could. Instead, I'm hanging out in a working-class community with houses that got hit hard by the market. I'm willing to bet if I lived in a more affluent white community, that hit wouldn't have been as hard. 

To this article -
FUCK YES. ALL OF THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE!

I guess what I mean about it being a tricky issue is: where is the right place for me, as an upper class* white person, to move that doesn't contribute to further segregation and doesn't push lower and middle class blacks out of their neighborhoods? (And keep in mind that as a new resident to the city, I had little sense of the history.) From my POV, it seems like segregation or gentrification are two of the main options. I guess I chose the latter, but it's not like I was hanging around in the suburbs, waiting for black folks to get pushed out before I moved in.

My perspective as a new resident is very different. I have been told that 20 years ago, my neighborhood was in the thick of the crack epidemic and was not a nice place to live. It's still not perfect (knifepoint robberies, say what?) but most of my neighborhood interactions have been great.

*I may be up to my ears in student loan debt, but I'd still consider us upper class based on our educations, professions, and income. I "feel" middle class but don't believe I actually am.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I'm not trying to convey a sense of exasperation or helplessness. It's more that I have learned a lot from race conversations on this board, so I find myself really trying to consider what I can do, particularly in light of the point this piece makes that no, as a white person, I can't ever fully understand your experience.

[lasagnasshole]

Jun 17, 2014 17:09:46 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Jun 17, 2014 16:12:49 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

I guess what I mean about it being a tricky issue is: where is the right place for me, as an upper class* white person, to move that doesn't contribute to further segregation and doesn't push lower and middle class blacks out of their neighborhoods? (And keep in mind that as a new resident to the city, I had little sense of the history.) From my POV, it seems like segregation or gentrification are two of the main options. I guess I chose the latter, but it's not like I was hanging around in the suburbs, waiting for black folks to get pushed out before I moved in.

My perspective as a new resident is very different. I have been told that 20 years ago, my neighborhood was in the thick of the crack epidemic and was not a nice place to live. It's still not perfect (knifepoint robberies, say what?) but most of my neighborhood interactions have been great.

*I may be up to my ears in student loan debt, but I'd still consider us upper class based on our educations, professions, and income. I "feel" middle class but don't believe I actually am.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I'm not trying to convey a sense of exasperation or helplessness. It's more that I have learned a lot from race conversations on this board, so I find myself really trying to consider what I can do, particularly in light of the point this piece makes that no, as a white person, I can't ever fully understand your experience.

I don't know the answer to this. I mean, people have to live somewhere, right? I think the argument? tension? about gentrification in D.C. is that when poor and/or brown folks were in these neighborhoods, businesses wouldn't come and other amenities weren't there. Then white people who wanted housing and couldn't afford the already established neighborhoods moved in (because, people have to live somewhere and they bought where their money spent as we all do!) and suddenly there are bars and restaurants and stuff catering to the new residents. So then the people who were there already feel like these new people are being treated better and given more amenities than they received while they dealt with the crime and crack. And now they can't afford to stay in the neighborhood which is now a nice place to live.

I got all that via many many many contentious and long angry threads on Prince of Petworth.

ETA: OH! And Anthony Williams and Adrian Fenty only did stuff to attract white people to the city. They didn't care about black/brown/poor people. That's the other "argument."


 

Honestly, this just makes me feel better that you get what I'm talking about. Like it's not all in my head, you know?

That sucks that businesses wouldn't move in until white people did. I don't know what to say beyond that sucks.

[PinkSquirrel]

Jun 17, 2014 16:12:49 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

Jun 17, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5 NitaX said:

I guess what I mean about it being a tricky issue is: where is the right place for me, as an upper class* white person, to move that doesn't contribute to further segregation and doesn't push lower and middle class blacks out of their neighborhoods? (And keep in mind that as a new resident to the city, I had little sense of the history.) From my POV, it seems like segregation or gentrification are two of the main options. I guess I chose the latter, but it's not like I was hanging around in the suburbs, waiting for black folks to get pushed out before I moved in.

My perspective as a new resident is very different. I have been told that 20 years ago, my neighborhood was in the thick of the crack epidemic and was not a nice place to live. It's still not perfect (knifepoint robberies, say what?) but most of my neighborhood interactions have been great.

*I may be up to my ears in student loan debt, but I'd still consider us upper class based on our educations, professions, and income. I "feel" middle class but don't believe I actually am.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I'm not trying to convey a sense of exasperation or helplessness. It's more that I have learned a lot from race conversations on this board, so I find myself really trying to consider what I can do, particularly in light of the point this piece makes that no, as a white person, I can't ever fully understand your experience.

Did you want to move to a more diverse community or did you want to live more in the city?   I ask because that's really what I've seen from people I know, not to call you out, this shit is hard.  My understanding in the Boston area at least is that white people used to make up the cities, then they decided they wanted to be in the suburbs, so they pushed POC into the cities, now white people seem to want back into cities and communities of color are being pushed out.   

As for how to live in a more diverse community and not be part of the problem ...  I think the key component is how you act once you're there.   If you move into a community you should actually want to live there and be invested in the community and not be looking to change the community to look like a upper middle class white neighborhood.   For example.   When Whole Foods wants to move into the area, are you going to want it there (or say nothing) or are you going to fight to keep your community how it is with the grocery stores that have been there for years?   Once Whole Foods comes in, the community has likely gone to white people.   You need to actively be working and fighting against racism.

A couple years ago I was having a conversation about racism and I came to the conclusion that as a white person I'm racist by default.  I don't have to do or say the things often associated with racism, I just have to exist.   As a white person I am afforded many advantages in our society and you know what, I take them. I may not even realize I'm taking them, but I am and if I do nothing and just go on about my day that's me being ok with systemic racism.  That's me giving passive approval for racism to continue.  It was a pretty massive realization and one that has really put pressure on me to stop being as passive and to try to be more aware of how all of my actions may affect other people.    

[lasagnasshole]

Jun 17, 2014 19:33:32 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

Jun 17, 2014 16:12:49 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

I guess what I mean about it being a tricky issue is: where is the right place for me, as an upper class* white person, to move that doesn't contribute to further segregation and doesn't push lower and middle class blacks out of their neighborhoods? (And keep in mind that as a new resident to the city, I had little sense of the history.) From my POV, it seems like segregation or gentrification are two of the main options. I guess I chose the latter, but it's not like I was hanging around in the suburbs, waiting for black folks to get pushed out before I moved in.

My perspective as a new resident is very different. I have been told that 20 years ago, my neighborhood was in the thick of the crack epidemic and was not a nice place to live. It's still not perfect (knifepoint robberies, say what?) but most of my neighborhood interactions have been great.

*I may be up to my ears in student loan debt, but I'd still consider us upper class based on our educations, professions, and income. I "feel" middle class but don't believe I actually am.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I'm not trying to convey a sense of exasperation or helplessness. It's more that I have learned a lot from race conversations on this board, so I find myself really trying to consider what I can do, particularly in light of the point this piece makes that no, as a white person, I can't ever fully understand your experience.

Did you want to move to a more diverse community or did you want to live more in the city?   I ask because that's really what I've seen from people I know, not to call you out, this shit is hard.  My understanding in the Boston area at least is that white people used to make up the cities, then they decided they wanted to be in the suburbs, so they pushed POC into the cities, now white people seem to want back into cities and communities of color are being pushed out.   

As for how to live in a more diverse community and not be part of the problem ...  I think the key component is how you act once you're there.   If you move into a community you should actually want to live there and be invested in the community and not be looking to change the community to look like a upper middle class white neighborhood.   For example.   When Whole Foods wants to move into the area, are you going to want it there (or say nothing) or are you going to fight to keep your community how it is with the grocery stores that have been there for years?   Once Whole Foods comes in, the community has likely gone to white people.   You need to actively be working and fighting against racism.

A couple years ago I was having a conversation about racism and I came to the conclusion that as a white person I'm racist by default.  I don't have to do or say the things often associated with racism, I just have to exist.   As a white person I am afforded many advantages in our society and you know what, I take them. I may not even realize I'm taking them, but I am and if I do nothing and just go on about my day that's me being ok with systemic racism.  That's me giving passive approval for racism to continue.  It was a pretty massive realization and one that has really put pressure on me to stop being as passive and to try to be more aware of how all of my actions may affect other people.    

I get what you're saying. My neighborhood, for example, has a great hardware store, and it would suck if a big box store like Home Depot moved in. But with the bolded example, we also talk a lot here about food deserts. I don't even really shop at WF, but I just don't see it as that simple - sometimes the "upper middle class white people" businesses are pushing out established businesses, but what if it's filling a gap? 

[lasagnasshole]

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack this and make it all about me. Thanks to @soudesafinado and NitaX and others for talking about stuff like this.

"Tell me about the racism you experience in your daily life" isn't exactly water cooler talk at work, so these discussions are very enlightening.

[PinkSquirrel]

Jun 17, 2014 19:47:38 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

Jun 17, 2014 19:33:32 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

I get what you're saying. My neighborhood, for example, has a great hardware store, and it would suck if a big box store like Home Depot moved in. But with the bolded example, we also talk a lot here about food deserts. I don't even really shop at WF, but I just don't see it as that simple - sometimes the "upper middle class white people" businesses are pushing out established businesses, but what if it's filling a gap? 

I think it depends on the business,  would it have moved there if there weren't wealthy white people there?   WF is an easier example because they're not called Whole Paycheck for nothing.   They're expensive, they only go where upper/upper-middle class people live.   

[karinothing]

Jun 17, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Jun 17, 2014 15:26:07 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

As someone who lives in a gentrifying area, this one is particularly interesting to me:

9. Realize that segregation is still rampant. Step outside and take a look around your neighborhood. Lacking people of color much? That is called segregation. It is not by chance, though sometimes by choice. (Refer to “redlining” Google search.)

About your neighborhood again: Displacing people of color much? That is called gentrification.
Think about the schools you went to and the classes you had. Not too many minorities in either? (Refer to school segregation/in-school segregation.)

The segregation vs. gentrification issue seems very tricky to me.

To me it's not. Let me tell you how I saw it happen. Basically, my city decided to revitalize an area. How did they do it? They basically went through and bought everyone out. People who didn't want to move were forced out through eminent domain. after that, those left standing were eventually pushed out because with development came higher property taxes. They couldn't afford it, so the govt just seized their land for back taxes and sold it to someone else. People didn't start really moving into the area until it started to look less like the folks who live there.

That's basically how it plays out - gentrification is how poor people get pushed out of the newest up and coming neighborhood.

Segregation = white flight out of an area into a brand new area. This is always couched around how such and such neighborhood is safe and has a great schools. Those neighborhoods remain primarily white until droves of new black folks move in. Or, in my city's case, once it's annexed. because Memphis = Black People = Annexation = Lots of Black People = Crime. That's the equation, and it continues to happen in other places.

Again, which goes back to me harping on white folks' migration patterns. I loved how in Coates' piece he talks about how black folks making $80,000 a year live in neighborhoods with white folks making $30,000. I'll be damned if I didn't realize that sounds a lot like the area I live in. Sure, I could probably afford a lot more house, but I didn't assume that I could. Instead, I'm hanging out in a working-class community with houses that got hit hard by the market. I'm willing to bet if I lived in a more affluent white community, that hit wouldn't have been as hard. 

To this article -
FUCK YES. ALL OF THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE!

I will say I don't think that is how gentrification works here. I live in a neighborhood that is slowly gentrifying. The county is not taking any land nor has the county bought anyone our. The main issue is that lower income apartment building owners sell their building to private developers. Then the private developers tear down the building to make new luxury apartments/condos. The county requires them to be a certain percentage low income (25% or so?). But VA is a HUGE property rights state so I think eminent domain rarely happens here.

Also, it seems like every few houses in my neighborhood are new builds. If someone is selling a house on a large lot a developer buys it (around 500K) and builds 4, 800K townhomes. So this in turn causes property values to rise, which could lead to higher taxes, which as you note could eventually force people out of their homes, but I haven't seen this happen yet. I think the majority of houses in my neighborhood are rentals though, so I could see the owners selling them as the neighborhood becomes more "desirable"

I don't know, gentrification is a tough issue for me because I want my neighborhood to improve. So I guess the question is how do you improve a neighborhood and keep the same population? (although to be honest, I admittedly would be happy if the ladies who beat each other with baseball bats in front of their kids to move out...that and whoever keeps throwing shoes over the power lines by the park)

[karinothing]

Jun 17, 2014 20:08:34 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Jun 17, 2014 19:33:32 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

Did you want to move to a more diverse community or did you want to live more in the city?   I ask because that's really what I've seen from people I know, not to call you out, this shit is hard.  My understanding in the Boston area at least is that white people used to make up the cities, then they decided they wanted to be in the suburbs, so they pushed POC into the cities, now white people seem to want back into cities and communities of color are being pushed out.   

As for how to live in a more diverse community and not be part of the problem ...  I think the key component is how you act once you're there.   If you move into a community you should actually want to live there and be invested in the community and not be looking to change the community to look like a upper middle class white neighborhood.   For example.   When Whole Foods wants to move into the area, are you going to want it there (or say nothing) or are you going to fight to keep your community how it is with the grocery stores that have been there for years?   Once Whole Foods comes in, the community has likely gone to white people.   You need to actively be working and fighting against racism.

A couple years ago I was having a conversation about racism and I came to the conclusion that as a white person I'm racist by default.  I don't have to do or say the things often associated with racism, I just have to exist.   As a white person I am afforded many advantages in our society and you know what, I take them. I may not even realize I'm taking them, but I am and if I do nothing and just go on about my day that's me being ok with systemic racism.  That's me giving passive approval for racism to continue.  It was a pretty massive realization and one that has really put pressure on me to stop being as passive and to try to be more aware of how all of my actions may affect other people.    

lasagnasshole This point comes up a lot on Prince of Petworth, too. Basica advice seems to be get to know your neighbors and don't clutch pearls when something happens that may just be ...different than what you would do but is overall harmless. Like people gathering on corners. Where I'm from people don't gather on corners (and they don't do that in my DC neighborhood now) but in some neighborhoods people do this to shoot the bull, and in some neighborhoods, they are hustling. Learn the difference and if it's just folks shooting the bull, join them sometimes! Chat folks up. Don't just come in and act like everything the existing folks were doing is wrong and bad and has to be changed. That creates a lot of resentment. That's been the advice on the blog.
 

I will admit I moved into their neighborhood and was at first a little put off by how many people hung out in the street and in front of their houses, but now I love it! It is a great way to get to know people. When people hide in their backyards you don't have that opportunity.

[lasagnasshole]

Jun 17, 2014 20:08:34 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Jun 17, 2014 19:33:32 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

Did you want to move to a more diverse community or did you want to live more in the city?   I ask because that's really what I've seen from people I know, not to call you out, this shit is hard.  My understanding in the Boston area at least is that white people used to make up the cities, then they decided they wanted to be in the suburbs, so they pushed POC into the cities, now white people seem to want back into cities and communities of color are being pushed out.   

As for how to live in a more diverse community and not be part of the problem ...  I think the key component is how you act once you're there.   If you move into a community you should actually want to live there and be invested in the community and not be looking to change the community to look like a upper middle class white neighborhood.   For example.   When Whole Foods wants to move into the area, are you going to want it there (or say nothing) or are you going to fight to keep your community how it is with the grocery stores that have been there for years?   Once Whole Foods comes in, the community has likely gone to white people.   You need to actively be working and fighting against racism.

A couple years ago I was having a conversation about racism and I came to the conclusion that as a white person I'm racist by default.  I don't have to do or say the things often associated with racism, I just have to exist.   As a white person I am afforded many advantages in our society and you know what, I take them. I may not even realize I'm taking them, but I am and if I do nothing and just go on about my day that's me being ok with systemic racism.  That's me giving passive approval for racism to continue.  It was a pretty massive realization and one that has really put pressure on me to stop being as passive and to try to be more aware of how all of my actions may affect other people.    

lasagnasshole This point comes up a lot on Prince of Petworth, too. Basica advice seems to be get to know your neighbors and don't clutch pearls when something happens that may just be ...different than what you would do but is overall harmless. Like people gathering on corners. Where I'm from people don't gather on corners (and they don't do that in my DC neighborhood now) but in some neighborhoods people do this to shoot the bull, and in some neighborhoods, they are hustling. Learn the difference and if it's just folks shooting the bull, join them sometimes! Chat folks up. Don't just come in and act like everything the existing folks were doing is wrong and bad and has to be changed. That creates a lot of resentment. That's been the advice on the blog.
 

I'm still allowed to clutch my pearls at the dude jacking off on the sidewalk, right? 

(I actually know a guy who was surprised I called the cops over the guy masturbating while facing the sidewalk, two blocks from a Little League field. I was like, where do you live that this is OK?!)

Everything you say makes sense. I'm not the best about knowing my neighbors, but I know a few and am friendly and say hi and try to be a good neighbor. I'm sure I could try harder, though!

[cookiemdough]

Jun 17, 2014 20:10:30 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Jun 17, 2014 20:08:34 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

lasagnasshole This point comes up a lot on Prince of Petworth, too. Basica advice seems to be get to know your neighbors and don't clutch pearls when something happens that may just be ...different than what you would do but is overall harmless. Like people gathering on corners. Where I'm from people don't gather on corners (and they don't do that in my DC neighborhood now) but in some neighborhoods people do this to shoot the bull, and in some neighborhoods, they are hustling. Learn the difference and if it's just folks shooting the bull, join them sometimes! Chat folks up. Don't just come in and act like everything the existing folks were doing is wrong and bad and has to be changed. That creates a lot of resentment. That's been the advice on the blog.
 

I will admit I moved into their neighborhood and was at first a little put off by how many people hung out in the street and in front of their houses, but now I love it! It is a great way to get to know people. When people hide in their backyards you don't have that opportunity.

This is kind of funny because my SIL and her family live in a primarily white neighborhood and people are always out and about. It is not uncommon on a nice evening for people to pull out their chairs to the driveway and chat with the neighbors while the kids play. Yet they attribute it to being a close-knit neighborhood. I think the perception is all about how well do you know your neighbors. If you don't and only associate with other gentrifiers then it is likely to view people congregating as questionable rather than neighborly.
Eta: the you is a general you, not you in particular

[cookiemdough]

Jun 17, 2014 20:08:38 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I don't know, gentrification is a tough issue for me because I want my neighborhood to improve. So I guess the question is how do you improve a neighborhood and keep the same population? (although to be honest, I admittedly would be happy if the ladies who beat each other with baseball bats in front of their kids to move out...that and whoever keeps throwing shoes over the power lines by the park)

I don't really understand this though. I don't know if I agree that improvements are made by the type of people rather than businesses choosing to come into certain neighborhoods.

[msmerymac]

Jun 17, 2014 20:08:38 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Jun 17, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5 NitaX said:

To me it's not. Let me tell you how I saw it happen. Basically, my city decided to revitalize an area. How did they do it? They basically went through and bought everyone out. People who didn't want to move were forced out through eminent domain. after that, those left standing were eventually pushed out because with development came higher property taxes. They couldn't afford it, so the govt just seized their land for back taxes and sold it to someone else. People didn't start really moving into the area until it started to look less like the folks who live there.

That's basically how it plays out - gentrification is how poor people get pushed out of the newest up and coming neighborhood.

Segregation = white flight out of an area into a brand new area. This is always couched around how such and such neighborhood is safe and has a great schools. Those neighborhoods remain primarily white until droves of new black folks move in. Or, in my city's case, once it's annexed. because Memphis = Black People = Annexation = Lots of Black People = Crime. That's the equation, and it continues to happen in other places.

Again, which goes back to me harping on white folks' migration patterns. I loved how in Coates' piece he talks about how black folks making $80,000 a year live in neighborhoods with white folks making $30,000. I'll be damned if I didn't realize that sounds a lot like the area I live in. Sure, I could probably afford a lot more house, but I didn't assume that I could. Instead, I'm hanging out in a working-class community with houses that got hit hard by the market. I'm willing to bet if I lived in a more affluent white community, that hit wouldn't have been as hard. 

To this article -
FUCK YES. ALL OF THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE!

I will say I don't think that is how gentrification works here. I live in a neighborhood that is slowly gentrifying. The county is not taking any land nor has the county bought anyone our. The main issue is that lower income apartment building owners sell their building to private developers. Then the private developers tear down the building to make new luxury apartments/condos. The county requires them to be a certain percentage low income (25% or so?). But VA is a HUGE property rights state so I think eminent domain rarely happens here.

Also, it seems like every few houses in my neighborhood are new builds. If someone is selling a house on a large lot a developer buys it (around 500K) and builds 4, 800K townhomes. So this in turn causes property values to rise, which could lead to higher taxes, which as you note could eventually force people out of their homes, but I haven't seen this happen yet. I think the majority of houses in my neighborhood are rentals though, so I could see the owners selling them as the neighborhood becomes more "desirable"

I don't know, gentrification is a tough issue for me because I want my neighborhood to improve. So I guess the question is how do you improve a neighborhood and keep the same population? (although to be honest, I admittedly would be happy if the ladies who beat each other with baseball bats in front of their kids to move out...that and whoever keeps throwing shoes over the power lines by the park)

I guess it depends on your definition of improvement. If you want property values to increase in a way that outpaces your state or national average, that's going to push people out, especially renters, since they are the ones who will shoulder increased housing costs, but also those who may have to pay higher property taxes. Economic diversity is as important to me as racial and ethnic diversity. And racial diversity often follows economic diversity. 

If it's something like reducing crime, that's definitely compatible with maintaining a diverse neighborhood. If it's bringing in more business, it can be compatible, as long as it's diverse business that appeals to most of the population and not just the upper middle class white element. 

[karinothing]

Jun 18, 2014 8:11:53 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Jun 17, 2014 20:08:38 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I don't know, gentrification is a tough issue for me because I want my neighborhood to improve. So I guess the question is how do you improve a neighborhood and keep the same population? (although to be honest, I admittedly would be happy if the ladies who beat each other with baseball bats in front of their kids to move out...that and whoever keeps throwing shoes over the power lines by the park)

I don't really understand this though. I don't know if I agree that improvements are made by the type of people rather than businesses choosing to come into certain neighborhoods.

Oh sorry, that came out wrong. I didn't mean to say that improvements are made by the type of people (again exceptions made for baseball fights). I meant that in my case, property values are being driven up by new businesses coming in, new build houses, and more family friendly attractions coming in. When the property values go up original residents are often kicked out of rental houses or can't afford new taxes so they are forced to leave. So I meant how can you improve the neighborhood with new facilities and still make it so the original residents can afford to live there. I mean my neighborhood is weird. One house across the street from me $362K. The new build nextdoor? 900K. And there are more and more 900K houses going in each day.

[karinothing]

Jun 18, 2014 8:24:47 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jun 17, 2014 20:08:38 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I will say I don't think that is how gentrification works here. I live in a neighborhood that is slowly gentrifying. The county is not taking any land nor has the county bought anyone our. The main issue is that lower income apartment building owners sell their building to private developers. Then the private developers tear down the building to make new luxury apartments/condos. The county requires them to be a certain percentage low income (25% or so?). But VA is a HUGE property rights state so I think eminent domain rarely happens here.

Also, it seems like every few houses in my neighborhood are new builds. If someone is selling a house on a large lot a developer buys it (around 500K) and builds 4, 800K townhomes. So this in turn causes property values to rise, which could lead to higher taxes, which as you note could eventually force people out of their homes, but I haven't seen this happen yet. I think the majority of houses in my neighborhood are rentals though, so I could see the owners selling them as the neighborhood becomes more "desirable"

I don't know, gentrification is a tough issue for me because I want my neighborhood to improve. So I guess the question is how do you improve a neighborhood and keep the same population? (although to be honest, I admittedly would be happy if the ladies who beat each other with baseball bats in front of their kids to move out...that and whoever keeps throwing shoes over the power lines by the park)

I guess it depends on your definition of improvement. If you want property values to increase in a way that outpaces your state or national average, that's going to push people out, especially renters, since they are the ones who will shoulder increased housing costs, but also those who may have to pay higher property taxes. Economic diversity is as important to me as racial and ethnic diversity. And racial diversity often follows economic diversity. 

If it's something like reducing crime, that's definitely compatible with maintaining a diverse neighborhood. If it's bringing in more business, it can be compatible, as long as it's diverse business that appeals to most of the population and not just the upper middle class white element. 

I THINK the majoirty of businesses/neighborhood improvements in my area are comptable with a diverse racial/economic population, but I don't know. They are building a new town square, a new park, they put in a ton of new restaurants, a new grocery store, and we have a farmer's market. Crime is already on the fall IMO.

I want my neighborhood to retain its original charm. It is one of the oldest neighborhoods in Arlington and was originally largely founded by former slaves. So it would be a travesty if the neighborhood lost its diversity.

I also obviously want my property value to increase and Arlington rates do outpace the national average. So I do fear that one day the neighborhood will lose its original charm.

[NewOrleans]

So poignant, man. Damn. DAMN. 

[NewOrleans]

Jun 17, 2014 15:21:30 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Jun 17, 2014 15:00:37 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

omg.  This gif has EVERYthang.  (wilted)

[aurora]

I couldn't really participate yesterday so I hope people still want to talk about this! I really appreciate all the insight and personal stories shared so far.

As to the original article, I understand that systemic racism exists and that we still have a long way to go, but I actually didn't realize that these two statistics were *this* bad:

The median wealth gap difference between a White family and a Black family is $80,000.

1 in 9 Black children has an incarcerated parent compared to 1 in 57 White children.

All that talk about supporting families? How is a child supposed to get ahead if he or she has a parent in jail - often for a minor drug offense - for a significant portion of childhood?

[aurora]

Jun 18, 2014 10:10:59 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

Jun 18, 2014 10:09:32 GMT -5 aurora said:

I couldn't really participate yesterday so I hope people still want to talk about this! I really appreciate all the insight and personal stories shared so far.

As to the original article, I understand that systemic racism exists and that we still have a long way to go, but I actually didn't realize that these two statistics were *this* bad:

All that talk about supporting families? How is a child supposed to get ahead if he or she has a parent in jail - often for a minor drug offense - for a significant portion of childhood?

so far the argument has been for sluts to stop having babies with criminals. 

Very good point.  If we just get rid of sluts all of our problems will go away.