supreme court / birth control / hobby lobby

[jennlin]

www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/us/supreme-court-ruling-in-contraceptive-case-is-awaited.html?_r=0

synopsis: hobby lobby and other for-profit organizations are allowed to claim religious exemption and *not* provide birth control under their health insurance.

discuss.

[jennlin]

Jun 30, 2014 12:23:53 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

The more I think on it, the more livid I get.

Ladies, welcome to the new world where you're second class citizens.

Oh. Wait...

this! i cannot believe that a CEO can determine what kind of health benefits i can and cannot receive. ACA determined that BC options were essential to women's health, hence being included in insurance plans... but all of a sudden, what i can and cannot do to protect my uterus is up to the hands of stuffy men in suits.

[alias]

This is ridiculous. First, I find it hard to believe that even most on the religious right have a sincerely held religious belief against birth control. Abortion, yes. Birth control, really? It's just sexist, like the attack on the college woman who was called slutty for saying that birth control should be covered. Everyone, well, almost everyone, uses birth control. Including married people and most religious people. There aren't a lot of people going around having 20 kids and I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of people who just don't have sex when they don't want kids. Andplusalso, covering maternity leave, children, etc. is way more costly and bad public policy. It's just so stupid.

[shevacc]

Yup, it pisses me right off why so many people seem to care so much about not making birth control accessible but not at all about the children that are born due to the unavailability of it.

[jennlin]

Jun 30, 2014 13:24:18 GMT -5 shevacc said:

Yup, it pisses me right off why so many people seem to care so much about not making birth control accessible but not at all about the children that are born due to the unavailability of it.

!!!!!!!!!! exactly!!!!!

[ilovebed]

alias those were my thoughts as well. Do these corporations really care that much about birth control or is this a Right vs Left issue. This decision was so wrong. I am shocked at the results. It's going to open the door for a much broader application. I swear these people want to live in a feudal world where we bow down to corporations and women are chattel.

It's so infuriating. I don't normally get involved with politics but for myself and for my daughter I'll be watching this issue closely bc this might be the issue that has me matching in the streets. I never wanted to go with H in college to political events but this hits too close to home.

[picksthemusic]

I'm in a rage. I just can't believe in this day and age, that this is an issue. I fear for our daughters.

[7costanza]

I think it's frightening. I am really worried for the future of women's rights in America. I also will never step foot in a Hobby Lobby - I was already not planning to ever shop there because they do not support marriage equality/gay rights and this makes me feel even more strongly that they will never see one penny from me.

[jennlin]

what scares me most is that this is opening the door for SO MUCH religious freedom, that it will be abused the hell out of. who's going to determine which ones are legitimate beliefs, and where do we draw the line?

[toratoratori]

I asked my husband to explain this to me. He grew up in a very conservative Christian household and his parents and sister are still active in their Evangelical churches. I asked him why someone would oppose birth control when we're all agreed that preventing pregnancy is the most effective way to prevent abortion (which, let's be real, is what this is all really about).

He explained that if Christians believe that life begins at conception, and also believe that conception happens when sperm meets egg, then they genuinely believe that anything that prevents that fertilized egg from implanting is essentially an abortion.

As far as I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), the Hobby Lobby suit was just to selectively deny birth control options that prevent implantation rather than fertilization. If that's what they genuinely believe, then I can see where they're coming from ... even though I still think it's bullshit.

[picksthemusic]

Jul 1, 2014 12:42:06 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

I asked my husband to explain this to me. He grew up in a very conservative Christian household and his parents and sister are still active in their Evangelical churches. I asked him why someone would oppose birth control when we're all agreed that preventing pregnancy is the most effective way to prevent abortion (which, let's be real, is what this is all really about).

He explained that if Christians believe that life begins at conception, and also believe that conception happens when sperm meets egg, then they genuinely believe that anything that prevents that fertilized egg from implanting is essentially an abortion.

As far as I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), the Hobby Lobby suit was just to selectively deny birth control options that prevent implantation rather than fertilization. If that's what they genuinely believe, then I can see where they're coming from ... even though I still think it's bullshit.

See, but that's just the problem. It's not scientifically sound, so the whole 'belief' thing shouldn't even be a factor. Belief should not dictate what can and can't be done with the law.

[toratoratori]

Jul 1, 2014 14:03:09 GMT -5 picksthemusic said:

Jul 1, 2014 12:42:06 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

I asked my husband to explain this to me. He grew up in a very conservative Christian household and his parents and sister are still active in their Evangelical churches. I asked him why someone would oppose birth control when we're all agreed that preventing pregnancy is the most effective way to prevent abortion (which, let's be real, is what this is all really about).

He explained that if Christians believe that life begins at conception, and also believe that conception happens when sperm meets egg, then they genuinely believe that anything that prevents that fertilized egg from implanting is essentially an abortion.

As far as I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), the Hobby Lobby suit was just to selectively deny birth control options that prevent implantation rather than fertilization. If that's what they genuinely believe, then I can see where they're coming from ... even though I still think it's bullshit.

See, but that's just the problem. It's not scientifically sound, so the whole 'belief' thing shouldn't even be a factor. Belief should not dictate what can and can't be done with the law.

I totally agree. I also find it infuriating that they don't want to subsidize "abortifacients" (aka. contraceptives) for their employees, but are still actively purchasing merchandise from China (have they seen their policies around abortion??) and investing in companies that produce the very contraceptives they're trying to avoid subsidizing. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing.

[alias]

I get the argument toratoratori, I just have a hard time believing it is a sincerely held belief. I mean, I am sure there are some who sincerely are opposed to it and use other forms, but, what percentage of Christians, who go to church and consider themselves religious, really are morally opposed to and avoid the pill/IUD? I think it's right up there w/ saying pre-marital sex is against someone's religious beliefs. Technically, yes, but the vast majority of Christians engage in it. This is just an excuse to push a political agenda, make a point, and avoid shelling out some money for insurance. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a strategy to lay the foundation for anti-gay policies.

[toratoratori]

Jul 1, 2014 23:08:03 GMT -5 alias said:

I get the argument toratoratori, I just have a hard time believing it is a sincerely held belief. I mean, I am sure there are some who sincerely are opposed to it and use other forms, but, what percentage of Christians, who go to church and consider themselves religious, really are morally opposed to and avoid the pill/IUD? I think it's right up there w/ saying pre-marital sex is against someone's religious beliefs. Technically, yes, but the vast majority of Christians engage in it. This is just an excuse to push a political agenda, make a point, and avoid shelling out some money for insurance. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a strategy to lay the foundation for anti-gay policies.

I don't think it's a sincerely held belief, either. But that's a slippery slope, as well, because who gets to determine what people believe, and whether those beliefs are sincere?

Maybe we need to stop trying to have autonomy over our bodies as a legal right, and instead develop a religion that centers around reproductive freedom. I'm starting to think that's the only way courts are going to take women seriously.

[alias]

Jul 2, 2014 12:09:38 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

Jul 1, 2014 23:08:03 GMT -5 alias said:

I get the argument toratoratori, I just have a hard time believing it is a sincerely held belief. I mean, I am sure there are some who sincerely are opposed to it and use other forms, but, what percentage of Christians, who go to church and consider themselves religious, really are morally opposed to and avoid the pill/IUD? I think it's right up there w/ saying pre-marital sex is against someone's religious beliefs. Technically, yes, but the vast majority of Christians engage in it. This is just an excuse to push a political agenda, make a point, and avoid shelling out some money for insurance. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a strategy to lay the foundation for anti-gay policies.

I don't think it's a sincerely held belief, either. But that's a slippery slope, as well, because who gets to determine what people believe, and whether those beliefs are sincere?

Maybe we need to stop trying to have autonomy over our bodies as a legal right, and instead develop a religion that centers around reproductive freedom. I'm starting to think that's the only way courts are going to take women seriously.

Well, this all got screwed up when the Court said corporations were people. And then they expanded that to say they could have sincerely held religious beliefs.

[toratoratori]

Anddddddddddddd here we go ...

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/hobby-lobby-is-already-creating-new-religious-demands-on-obama/373853/