Okay, I had to take it out of that thread...but, do people really think they will be safer if we ban guns? Do you not think illegal guns, much like drugs, will still find their way into the hands of the "Bad guys"? I am asking honestly, not being snarky, but I have to get this question answered.
With the same debate over and over with the flip-side being, "If more people had conceal carry permits this never would have happened!"
In this instance, if there was a theater that had people carrying guns in Denver, this would be one of them.
I have yet to hear how a conceal/carry has stopped any mass shooter. Out of all the shootings, don't you think there would be at least 1 person in the crowd carrying a gun? (Or maybe there have been instances, and I just don't remember them.)
I am not a fan of conceal carry, though here in MD, people of "value" (I cant remember the exact term, but that is the boil down) can carry. So, they are apparently more important-ie state legislators, etc. Not all can get approval. Yeah, stupid
Listen, a concealed carry would have probably done little in the broad scope of things in a dimly lit movie theater.
Exactly, especially when people thought at first that the guy was part of the movie. The last thing I want is a guy with a hero complex shooting back in a crowded theater in poor conditions.
Post by copzgirl1171 on Jul 20, 2012 9:33:42 GMT -5
Let me turn this around. What good to those of you who support gun ownership does it do to own one?
Are you hunting? Are you threatened daily? Do you fear for your property? I mean no snark when I say that I just don't get having a gun laying around "just in case"
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
WE dont own one and I dont want one, but DH does. He worries about us living in the city (not that we are any less safe here than in the county, imo), especially with LT. It is for personal property. His boss also brings them to the shooting range every few months as a team building thing and to polish up in case of the apocalypse (I wish I was kidding).
I think there needs to be more restrictions for being able to legally obtain guns, but there would still be plenty of people who get them illegally.
Those who get them illegally aren't going to give two craps about a ban
And I agree with this. I think gun control should be looked at and improved upon, which might make it harder for a nut job to get his hands on one with the intent to shoot people up.
But I think it's scratching the surface to say it's ONLY about gun access. I would like a deeper look to be taken at violence in our culture, the fact that this killer's name was released so soon - suspects are given super media status in the exposure they get, and I doubt that serves as a deterrent in a country where people live on reality shows and hope for their own "15 minutes of fame." Add a mix of crazy or mental imbalance into that, and it doesn't make for a happy ending.
Anyway. I'm pro-legal-gun-ownership, provided the gun owners is trained in how to both use and store their weapon. I'd be VERY surprised to find this suspect - if he legally owned his weapons or not - cared about either. Might be wrong though, we'll have to see.
Meh. I think if events like this make you feel "less safe" you are a bit of an alarmist.
But i absolutely feel that reeve hit the nail on the head re: being horrified over such events given our county's gun regulations. And I do think we would see fewer of these killings if it were more difficult to get automatic weapons specifically.
Let me turn this around. What good to those of you who support gun ownership does it do to own one?
Are you hunting? Are you threatened daily? Do you fear for your property? I mean no snark when I say that I just don't get having a gun laying around "just in case"
I wish one of our locals posted here. She's a single mom who owns a handgun and knows how to use/store it. An intruder entered her home one night, and she used it to scare him away (I don't think she fired it though).
I can imagine a single mom might feel a bit more empowered to protect her family alone if she could respond with something mightier than a scream or calling 911 hoping they get there in time.
I'd imagine that, primarily, the ones who'd get guns illegally are the ones with presumed means to avoid being caught or where it's worth the risk due to getting whatever they'd expect in return for whatever crime they'd commit. Not random, senseless killings. Remember the 4th word in this post.
The big problem for me is supply. There are just too many damn guns out there, and also too many irresponsible people out there. Which means that even if there is a ban on guns (it'll never happen, but stay with me), what happens to all those guns out there already? Many will continue to fall into the wrong hands.
Those in favor of gun control: are you okay with law enforcement having guns?
This is no lie. I spent the first 6 months on my job not connecting names with my co-workers because my eyes went immediately to the gun on their hips.
It was pretty hard to reconcile myself to the fact that they were highly trained, and also trained in restraint for use of deadly force...that was key to me. One of the guys sat me down and told me that there isn't anyone here that WANTS or WAITS to have to use deadly force. It is never their first line of defense, it it the very last line of defense.
I worry that general gun owners (the stories I could tell about "education" in CC courses would make your hair curl) think that it is their first, and end all be all line of defense.
I also think the bigger issue is that we don't look at mental health in this country in any real way. I have yet to see someone who does something like this in a state of sound mind, unfortunately. I think THAT is the bigger issue than this crutch of gun control.
As i posted before, it's simple math. A certain percentage of legal guns will make their way onto the black market. That's inevitable and happens everywhere. But if you have 100,000 legal guns in your country, that number will be a lot smaller (and the guns will be more expensive and harder to get) than if you have 500 million.
I'm not saying we should ban all guns. I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to say that banning guns or sharply limiting the number of guns in the country wouldn't help reduce gun violence (not only random mass shootings but everyday gun violence too).
The question is, do we want to do that? Is our right to have as many guns as possible more important than preventing gun violence? We as a society have answered that question with a resounding "yes" which is why I have to kind of roll my eyes at the horror from our nation as a whole when something like this happens. It's the price we pay and it's what we've chosen as a society.
Also, shootings like this are a red herring as far as gun control is concerned. There are FAR more people killed in this country every year from mundane street crime as well as accidents involving guns.
Post by copzgirl1171 on Jul 20, 2012 9:46:31 GMT -5
True story.
I attended a two day meeting with an important member of our office. The area was less than secure and I just offhandedly said that I never thought I would be happy to have an escort.
He said "Why? I don't carry in plain clothes or any other time than in uniform"
I also think the bigger issue is that we don't look at mental health in this country in any real way. I have yet to see someone who does something like this in a state of sound mind, unfortunately. I think THAT is the bigger issue than this crutch of gun control.
I agree. We're so focused on looking at the means that we forget about the cause.
I'd imagine that, primarily, the ones who'd get guns illegally are the ones with presumed means to avoid being caught or where it's worth the risk due to getting whatever they'd expect in return for whatever crime they'd commit. Not random, senseless killings. Remember the 4th word in this post.
Sorry about the qualifying of the previously qualified qualifiers.
Also, shootings like this are a red herring as far as gun control is concerned. There are FAR more people killed in this country every year from mundane street crime as well as accidents involving guns.
I'm always for less guns. And don't states have different laws on guns and weren't their issues with them cross-checking people? I remember some study where tons of people who shouldn't have guns were sold them because the controls we do have don't work. I'll have to look for it.
Of course, stricter gun laws aren't going to mean that criminals won't get guns. They will. But it will be harder for them also, wouldn't it? No country is immune to this kind of violence, but countries with stricter gun laws see less of it, and wouldn't that be better than nothing.
And I just don't think gun control will turn the U.S. into Somalia where all the crazies have AKs and all the rest of us don't.
In general, our culture of easy gun ownership makes our whole country look violent and crazy to a lot of people outside of it. Not that you should care what other countries think, but I think people do cling to guns and it's sad.
If you are hunting, fine. But then there are the people who want guns for protection against the gov't and that I simply cannot see. Since I don't think the gov't is A) going to go dictator on me and B) that if they did I could stop them with a rifle, I don't see the point.
But I think the whole conversation is moot. There is no way ever on God's green earth America will give up guns. Absolutely no way. And I think any president who seriously made an effort to do so would be killed. I absolutely believe that.
And I think any president who seriously made an effort to do so would be killed. I absolutely believe that.
And that is weak, imo. If that were to happen, God forbid, it would rally so many to actually do it. So, I doubt even the crazies would want to make a martyr.
I'd imagine that, primarily, the ones who'd get guns illegally are the ones with presumed means to avoid being caught or where it's worth the risk due to getting whatever they'd expect in return for whatever crime they'd commit. Not random, senseless killings. Remember the 4th word in this post.
Lived in Massachusetts for years, super tough gun laws. There (then) if you were in possession of a gun and you didn't have a license, it was a year in prison. Period.
There were these huge signs telling people this when you drove into the state.
I have to say, the prosecutors loved it, as it gave them a nice wedge in plea discussions... Many a friend rolled over on their bad guy buddies because they didn't want to be charged with firearm possession.
What I learned from that is that while strict gun licensing laws might not stop a psycho shooter, it can be a fantastic tool in law enforcement.
Based on tweet from the police chief, the suspect's residence is booby-trapped (IS that how you spell it?) with explosives, he's saying it is very sophisticated.
Based on tweet from the police chief, the suspect's residence is booby-trapped (IS that how you spell it?) with explosives, he's saying it is very sophisticated.