DD is at it again

[friendlyfarmer]

Hi there,

I used to pop in on the other board under a different name but haven't been around in over a year, I need some guidance with DD2 and knew this would be the right place.

A family therapist we saw for a number of months suggested that DD2 has ADHD, bipolar, ODD, and might be showing early signs of schizophrenia, her birth mother is bipolar and schizophrenic.  I'm also suspicious of dyslexia.

DD2 turns 7 in a few days and started second grade two weeks ago, I spoke with her teacher this morning and she doesn't know what to do with her.  DD2 disrupts class, is disrespectful, won't stay in her seat, shows her anger by yelling at others.  On Friday she had to be removed to another classroom for screaming in class and taking things from the teacher's desk and not returning them when asked.  These behaviors are a more extreme repeat of what was experienced last school year.

I did get her a 504 toward the end of last year but her school doesn't accommodate SN kids (the site doesn't have SN classes) so I feel like she needs something more.  In talking with her teacher, the possibility of an actual eval came up to get her into either a SN class or a class for kids with behavior problems at another school within the district.  The teacher mentioned that while DD2 is ahead in reading (4th grade level), her math is below where it should be.

The behaviors I mentioned are not school centric, they apply in all areas of her life.  MIL, who cared for DD2 after school last year, told us that she would no longer care for her this year because of her disrespect and violence, luckily we were able to get her into an after school program this year.  She understands rules but doesn't follow them and turns on anyone who tries to implement them.  She tells me that she likes to bad things because it's more fun.

DW will be taking DD2 to a walk-in psych clinic for an eval until we can get her in to see a child psych, at least 3-4 months from now.  We were against meds when we thought she only had ADD but if the psych confirms the other DX's, we will be moving forward with meds.

What else can I do?  I was a SAHM for the first two years after her adoption but have had to work for the past year and foresee working for another 6 months before I'm able to be home with her full-time again.

[hopecounts]

I think your first step is to get a good eval from a child psych.
at 7 it is unlikely (though not impossible) that they will give a bipolar diagnosis unless it is extremely severe and obvious. Typically they wait and watch until slightly older to make sure it's not just emotional immaturity/lack of emotion managment vs actual Mental Illness.
Also what you are describing sounds more like ODD then Bipolar, doesn't mean Bipolar isn't happening or won't come up (especially with family history) but your daughter sounds a LOT like my BFF who had ODD but it could come across as Bipolar in that she would go from pleasant to completely insane in .5 seconds when anyone in authority tried to direct her actions/behavior/tell her what to do.
Main thing is inform yourself, read up on ODD and how to handle kids with this diagnosis, get into FAMILY counseling as well if not already (this will be a huge part of navigating an ODD diagnosis successfully because ODD requires a lot of work to manage family rules/expectations with the diagnosed kid which effects everyone so the help of a trained specialist is key in being successful without causing other issues)
Also be very careful that you and your spouse are 100% on the same page in terms of discipline and rules.
My BFF was the queen of making use of the fact that her mom was a softy and her dad was strict. It played right into her issues and she played it right back. It also seriously damaged her relationship with her Dad because he was the one she pushed back hardest against since he was the one trying to enforce the rules.

[auntie]

Aug 12, 2014 15:20:23 GMT -5 friendlyfarmer said:

Hi there,

I used to pop in on the other board under a different name but haven't been around in over a year, I need some guidance with DD2 and knew this would be the right place.

Are you the mom who had fostered/adopted 4 little ones from the other place?

A family therapist we saw for a number of months suggested that DD2 has ADHD, bipolar, ODD, and might be showing early signs of schizophrenia, her birth mother is bipolar and schizophrenic.  I'm also suspicious of dyslexia.

That's a lot of stuff. You definately need somebody more highly qualified than a "family therapist" to work through this behavior and background. ADHD, ODD, specific LD, bi-polar disorder, pre-natal drug/alcohol exposure, and RAD can all be antecendents to the sort of behavior you're seeing. I disagree that bipolar is "unlikely" given her mom's dx and the sort of disordered behavior you're seeing. I have 2 nieces with childhood onset bi-polar (one on DH's side and one on mine). Both had behaviors, in retrospect, that were indicative of bi-polar disorder by the time they started school. 

DD2 turns 7 in a few days and started second grade two weeks ago, I spoke with her teacher this morning and she doesn't know what to do with her.  DD2 disrupts class, is disrespectful, won't stay in her seat, shows her anger by yelling at others.  On Friday she had to be removed to another classroom for screaming in class and taking things from the teacher's desk and not returning them when asked.  These behaviors are a more extreme repeat of what was experienced last school year.

I did get her a 504 toward the end of last year but her school doesn't accommodate SN kids (the site doesn't have SN classes) so I feel like she needs something more.  In talking with her teacher, the possibility of an actual eval came up to get her into either a SN class or a class for kids with behavior problems at another school within the district.  The teacher mentioned that while DD2 is ahead in reading (4th grade level), her math is below where it should be.

Special education is a service, not a place. If she attends a public school, they must offer her a free and appropriate education. If she is mentally ill or behaviorally disordered, she needs an IEP- no meaningful services will come without one in a school setting. Since she acts out and is at risk of suspension or expulsion, an IEP would offer a safeguard around her behaviors as a manifestation of her disability.


I'm curious why you think she's dyslexic if she's reading at the 4th grade level as a young 7? Does she lack comprehension? Sometimes kids who excell at RELA but struggle in math have NVLD.

The behaviors I mentioned are not school centric, they apply in all areas of her life.  MIL, who cared for DD2 after school last year, told us that she would no longer care for her this year because of her disrespect and violence, luckily we were able to get her into an after school program this year.  She understands rules but doesn't follow them and turns on anyone who tries to implement them.  She tells me that she likes to bad things because it's more fun.

DW will be taking DD2 to a walk-in psych clinic for an eval until we can get her in to see a child psych, at least 3-4 months from now.  We were against meds when we thought she only had ADD but if the psych confirms the other DX's, we will be moving forward with meds.

I would get a clear dx before moving forward with meds. As complicated as this situation you're describing is, I'd travel for a pediatric teaching hospital with a mental health department. Kids at risk of bipolar need to avoid certain classes of medication; stimulants for ADHD and SSRIs can activate some people.
The focus will rightly be on behavioral issues and academics may be dumbed down or superficial.

What else can I do?  I was a SAHM for the first two years after her adoption but have had to work for the past year and foresee working for another 6 months before I'm able to be home with her full-time again.

I'd wait to get in with the best person possible and have them refer you to a behaviorist who can create a positive behavior management program for school and home. If she hasn't had a full, multifactored eval at school, I would request that as well.


I'm sorry you and your family are dealing with this. I hope you can get some answers and options sooner rather than later.

[friendlyfarmer]

Aug 13, 2014 5:27:14 GMT -5 auntie said:

Aug 12, 2014 15:20:23 GMT -5 friendlyfarmer said:

Hi there,

I used to pop in on the other board under a different name but haven't been around in over a year, I need some guidance with DD2 and knew this would be the right place.

Are you the mom who had fostered/adopted 4 little ones from the other place?

Yes, that is me, although we don't have the younger two any longer.

A family therapist we saw for a number of months suggested that DD2 has ADHD, bipolar, ODD, and might be showing early signs of schizophrenia, her birth mother is bipolar and schizophrenic.  I'm also suspicious of dyslexia.

That's a lot of stuff. You definately need somebody more highly qualified than a "family therapist" to work through this behavior and background. ADHD, ODD, specific LD, bi-polar disorder, pre-natal drug/alcohol exposure, and RAD can all be antecendents to the sort of behavior you're seeing. I disagree that bipolar is "unlikely" given her mom's dx and the sort of disordered behavior you're seeing. I have 2 nieces with childhood onset bi-polar (one on DH's side and one on mine). Both had behaviors, in retrospect, that were indicative of bi-polar disorder by the time they started school. 

DD2 turns 7 in a few days and started second grade two weeks ago, I spoke with her teacher this morning and she doesn't know what to do with her.  DD2 disrupts class, is disrespectful, won't stay in her seat, shows her anger by yelling at others.  On Friday she had to be removed to another classroom for screaming in class and taking things from the teacher's desk and not returning them when asked.  These behaviors are a more extreme repeat of what was experienced last school year.

I did get her a 504 toward the end of last year but her school doesn't accommodate SN kids (the site doesn't have SN classes) so I feel like she needs something more.  In talking with her teacher, the possibility of an actual eval came up to get her into either a SN class or a class for kids with behavior problems at another school within the district.  The teacher mentioned that while DD2 is ahead in reading (4th grade level), her math is below where it should be.

Special education is a service, not a place. If she attends a public school, they must offer her a free and appropriate education. If she is mentally ill or behaviorally disordered, she needs an IEP- no meaningful services will come without one in a school setting. Since she acts out and is at risk of suspension or expulsion, an IEP would offer a safeguard around her behaviors as a manifestation of her disability.

I'm struggling with the school right now, it has been wonderful for DD1 but not so much for DD2, I understand that part of it has to do with us not having confirmed dx's yet but a number of the staff seems overwhelmed with DD2.  I pursued an IEP last year but was told that they had to do a SST first and give her a 504 if needed, then if that wasn't working we could discuss the possibility of an IEP.  The school district isn't the best for SN but it's where she has to be for the time being.  I'm considering homeschooling her in the future if we can't get her the help she needs through public school.


I'm curious why you think she's dyslexic if she's reading at the 4th grade level as a young 7? Does she lack comprehension? Sometimes kids who excell at RELA but struggle in math have NVLD.

I've been suspicious because although she is ahead of her peers, she. reads. slowly. and. gets. stuck. on. nearly. every. word.  I have to read along with her because she will very often read words incorrectly or add extra words, it's almost like she sees the first letter and guesses what the word is, she reads longer words better than shorter words.  I don't think she comprehends very well the first time(s) she reads through something because she will read part of a sentence, pause, read it through one to a few more times, then you can hear something click when she gets it, she will then read the remainder of the sentence in the same manner.  She also switches numbers in math occasionally.

The behaviors I mentioned are not school centric, they apply in all areas of her life.  MIL, who cared for DD2 after school last year, told us that she would no longer care for her this year because of her disrespect and violence, luckily we were able to get her into an after school program this year.  She understands rules but doesn't follow them and turns on anyone who tries to implement them.  She tells me that she likes to bad things because it's more fun.

DW will be taking DD2 to a walk-in psych clinic for an eval until we can get her in to see a child psych, at least 3-4 months from now.  We were against meds when we thought she only had ADD but if the psych confirms the other DX's, we will be moving forward with meds.

I would get a clear dx before moving forward with meds. As complicated as this situation you're describing is, I'd travel for a pediatric teaching hospital with a mental health department. Kids at risk of bipolar need to avoid certain classes of medication; stimulants for ADHD and SSRIs can activate some people.
The focus will rightly be on behavioral issues and academics may be dumbed down or superficial.

We have a wonderful children's hospital 5 minutes away from us, unfortunately none of their child psychs take her insurance.  I hadn't considered looking at another hospital, we live about an hour away from Los Angeles and could take her there.

What else can I do?  I was a SAHM for the first two years after her adoption but have had to work for the past year and foresee working for another 6 months before I'm able to be home with her full-time again.

I'd wait to get in with the best person possible and have them refer you to a behaviorist who can create a positive behavior management program for school and home. If she hasn't had a full, multifactored eval at school, I would request that as well.


I'm sorry you and your family are dealing with this. I hope you can get some answers and options sooner rather than later.

Thanks auntie, you are always such a great help!