Post by penguingrrl on Aug 22, 2014 11:16:26 GMT -5
We're having some serious issues with our landlord and I need a little advice as to whether we have recourse. This will be long because I need to give some background into the situation. Sorry for the wall of text, but 3 months of issues are finally pouring out.
We just moved to eastern PA in June when DH started his new job. When we were looking for a rental there were three listings with 3+ bedrooms within our desired school district. Out of the three rentals this was the only one that met our needs. One was double the cost of this (it was $3K, not a chance we could swing that) and the other had knob and tube wiring and DH said it was a fire hazard.
That took us to this one. It was right at the top of our budget, but had the necessary 3 bedrooms and 2 toilets (after years of 2 bed/1 bath with 4 then 5 people I couldn't do that anymore). While we were looking at it we got a weird sense of the landlord, but the house was right and, quite frankly, there wasn't another property available. We asked approximately how much the utilities ran and heat ran, all the pertinent information. He couldn't give us a straight answer, but his wife gave us a verbal estimate of under $2K a year in heating oil and said last year, with the polar vortex, it was $2200.
We've had a series of issues with them since. 1) We picked up keys and moved some antique dressers in that my sister's BIL gave us (BILs deceased grandparents dressers, so sentimental value) as well as all our Christmas stuff (didn't want to trust that to the movers). Well, he sent an employee to empty out the old tenant's stuff, didn't give him the detailed list we emailed and our dressers ended up taken out and destroyed. He almost threw out all of our Christmas stuff as well but we reached him on time that he took it off the truck. He won't answer our calls and questions about how he will reimburse us for that.
2) When we looked at the house we disclosed that we had cats. Since then we sent one to live elsewhere and are trying to find a home for the second (due to my daughter's asthma; her pulmonologist and allergist both told us years ago to get rid of them and her symptoms have gotten enough worse that we sadly have to comply now), but he's in the house with us per verbal agreement. He claimed that he saw a cat in the window and had forgotten that discussion, which is a lie. The cat is too fat to fit on a window sill and has not been able to jump that high in many years. So we're pretty sure he was looking in the window. He has permission to be on the property because there's a carriage house that he stores things in. But I'm pretty sure peeking through the windows in our home is very illegal.
3) On 6/23 we put 500 gallons of oil in the tank after discovering there was no hot water and apparently the water is heated by oil (something that was not disclosed when we asked about utilities). As of this morning it was empty again. That's over $500 of oil in just about 2 months on just hot water. There is no way the number they gave us for heating the house is accurate if the hot water heater alone is going to cost $250/month, which is higher than all the other utilities combined. Even beyond the cost of that, the environmental impact is unconscionable. We emailed offering to buy an electric oil tank (for the cost of 1 month's oil) for the house and install it ourselves and have not heard back. I normally wouldn't put my own money into a rental like this, but it will save us enough short-term to be worth it.
4) When we looked at the house he on the spot decided to ask us for $100 more a month in rent than he listed it for on the premise that he was getting the front porch rebuilt this summer and that would cost $10K. We agreed to that number but the porch has not been done.
Do I have any recourse with any of this? At best he's a scummy asshole, at worst it seems like he intentionally misled us about the costs associated with living here. Other than planning to move when the lease is up (which we do plan to do, although apparently he owns many of the not numerous rentals in town) can we do anything about all of this?
I also made the mistake of googling him after signing the lease (but, again, our options were severely limited as we had to move before DH started his new job) and it turns out he was arrested last winter after pulling a gun out on his teenage son. Now that I've gotten into the community and gotten involved with the Democratic women's club I have found out he's notoriously unhinged. At this point any and all communication is through his wife (who actually is a lovely person) and in writing.
Any advice on how to deal with this situation? If you made it through you seriously earned a cookie or a stiff drink!
Also, I totally realize that nobody is giving me actual legal advice or anything, just want some thoughts.
I'm not exactly sure what you want here. Do you want to move out and you are under a lease? Or you want to stay but he wants to evict you? You don't like the landlord. I'm not sure what advice you are looking for.
Did you move the dressers in before you were legally entitled to? How did the landlord say he was going to reimburse you for those?
I'm not exactly sure what you want here. Do you want to move out and you are under a lease? Or you want to stay but he wants to evict you? You don't like the landlord. I'm not sure what advice you are looking for.
Did you move the dressers in before you were legally entitled to? How did the landlord say he was going to reimburse you for those?
Btw, landlord/tenant laws are all state specific.
I'm honestly not positive what I'm looking for. I guess advice as to whether, if this is all documented, it could lead up to cause for breaking my lease before June.
We moved the dressers in the day the least started. He has changed the subject every time we brought it up. We don't expect money for the sentimental value, but they were solid maple dressers and were worth decent money.
Post by ChillyMcFreeze on Aug 22, 2014 11:30:41 GMT -5
Sounds like a nightmare. I imagine tenant laws vary widely by state, so maybe you can contact PA's department of housing and development for some guidance? Sorry you're dealing with this!
Talk to the wife about the dressers. You won't get $$ for sentiment, but for the actual physical dressers, which should be something.
You shouldn't be going through that much oil on just hot water. We have oil heat and don't go through that much oil in the dead of winter.
document everything, send emails don't talk.
Ugh.
Thanks. I've had oil heat in the past and it was way less expensive, so this was a huge surprise and I'm not sure we can afford this place if that's an indicator on heating costs. And the dressers were worth at least a few hundred dollars. They were solid maple (and the employee who destroyed them commented on how well made they were...).
We send all communication through his wife's email at this point so it's in writing.
Sounds like a nightmare. I imagine tenant laws vary widely by state, so maybe you can contact PA's department of housing and development for some guidance? Sorry you're dealing with this!
Thanks! I knew tenant law varied by state, so I definitely will get in touch with someone. I think part of this was wondering whether I was going crazy or some of this was normal. We've always rented and always had great landlords, so this is taking us by surprise.
Post by cinnamoncox on Aug 22, 2014 11:35:13 GMT -5
The 500 gallons cost you $500?
Damn! I paid $3.79/gal my last tank fill.
Anyway, I think there may be somehow wrong with the hot water tank or an oil leak. That amount of oil for just heating the water seems impossible barring anything malfunctioning.
Is it a multi unit building? Any chance your tank is the tank for the whole building?
I'm sorry. I would document everything and have them look at it.
I'm a landlord, if my tenant was paying $250/month to heat their water I would have everything looked at immediately.
Also HJ is right, tenant laws are state specific, but I know the ones I know of are way more tenant friendly than landlord friendly.
If you want to leave before your lease is up you should look for the laws of your state regarding rental leases. You should have a state department of consumer affairs or housing or something that will have the laws on their website.
In CA leases can be broken for any or no reason but the tenant is on the hook financially for the remainder of the term, HOWEVER a landlord has a legal duty to make reasonable efforts to rent out the unit so that the tenant is only on the hook for the time it takes to get a new person in.
But you need to figure out the laws of your state.
Regarding #1, I would look into your state laws or talk to someone to see if you have the ability to just withhold the amount of the dressers that he destroyed from the amount of your rent. All with documentation of course, with a letter stating what you are deducting and why.
Regarding #3, I would most definitely ask the oil company to come out and perform some tests to make sure there are no leaks. You should not be going through that much oil for hot water. If they don't find any leaks, my next step would be to call a water heater repair man and have them look at the actual water heater. And if there is a cost for that, I would either try to clear it with the landlord first, or if he refuses, perhaps try the same tactic I mentioned for #1 if you can.
I looked into some tenant laws in PA last year when I having major issue (no functioning central heat, specifically, but others as well), but unfortunately, in many states, there are many regulations that apply to properties/landlords with 4 units or more, but not SFHs. I am not legally knowledgeable enough to know if the fact that he owns multiple rental units separately means that they fall under those laws.
Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of this is sketchy as hell, but not necessarily illegal. Verbally leading you to believe oil is about $2k/year and maybe kinda sorta looking into your windows from the outside but with no proof won't have enough documentation to do anything. :/
Where are you located? You can PM me. I'm assuming not SE PA, otherwise we could GTG!
I looked into some tenant laws in PA last year when I having major issue (no functioning central heat, specifically, but others as well), but unfortunately, in many states, there are many regulations that apply to properties/landlords with 4 units or more, but not SFHs. I am not legally knowledgeable enough to know if the fact that he owns multiple rental units separately means that they fall under those laws.
Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of this is sketchy as hell, but not necessarily illegal. Verbally leading you to believe oil is about $2k/year and maybe kinda sorta looking into your windows from the outside but with no proof won't have enough documentation to do anything. :/
Where are you located? You can PM me. I'm assuming not SE PA, otherwise we could GTG!
Thanks. It's a SFH, so I'm not sure how that's regulated. I was afraid that misleading us wouldn't be technically illegal.
Post by penguingrrl on Aug 22, 2014 12:12:09 GMT -5
Thanks everyone! I will get in touch with the landlord to look into a leak. DH says it's a very old beast of a unit that's a combined furnace/water heater and that it's not insulated at all, so it may actually be that bad. And apparently I was totally wrong about the 500 gallons, it was 150 gallons for $500. I know that changes the issue substantially except the finances, which are a problem .
This may be a long shot, but if you have a university in your town it's possible there are some resources there regarding tenant laws in your area (these are made available for students in my city because that's where the university's interests lie, but accessible by anyone).
I think unfortunately you probably don't have much recourse on the estimated heating bills and the peeking through your windows, but you absolutely should be compensated for the dressers. You could possibly also be compensated for him still using the property for his own purposes (clearing out previous tenant's stuff) after your own lease had started.
Is the deck re-build in writing? The increased rent might be hard to fight if not.
I'm not exactly sure what you want here. Do you want to move out and you are under a lease? Or you want to stay but he wants to evict you? You don't like the landlord. I'm not sure what advice you are looking for.
Did you move the dressers in before you were legally entitled to? How did the landlord say he was going to reimburse you for those?
Btw, landlord/tenant laws are all state specific.
I'm honestly not positive what I'm looking for. I guess advice as to whether, if this is all documented, it could lead up to cause for breaking my lease before June.
We moved the dressers in the day the least started. He has changed the subject every time we brought it up. We don't expect money for the sentimental value, but they were solid maple dressers and were worth decent money.
Like others have said, laws are state specific. However, from what you described and I briefly looked in to rental laws in PA previously it doesn't sound like you can break the lease without paying whatever fee is in your lease based on what you've said here. From what I remember in order to withhold rent or break a lease without penalty it had to be some pretty serious infractions like the place isn't livable, such as the landlord shut off the electricity.
I've had one sketchy landlord situation and this is how I handled it:
First, he promised a basement would be finished and it wasn't so I asked for money off the rent. After a couple of conversations he finally agreed and I put it in writing in email.
Although email is great, it's easy for people to ignore your emails. So what I started doing with my sketchy landlord is I would call him and get him to make a decision on the phone. Then, I would immediately follow up with an email to him saying for example, "To confirm, as per our phone conversation this morning, you agreed that the rent would be lowered to X amount." He would usually reply after that. That way I didn't have to sit around weeks waiting for his response via email, but still had something in writing.
Lastly, I never threatened getting a lawyer, but I did make it clear that he couldn't just pull the wool over my eyes and made sure to site anything legal or provide links of examples of things he was doing incorrectly. For example, our basement kept flooding, everyone said we needed a sump pump, but he was being stingy and said we didn't need it. So I did my research about why a sump pump was needed and sent it to him. He finally put the sump pump in and that fixed the flooding.
This may be a long shot, but if you have a university in your town it's possible there are some resources there regarding tenant laws in your area (these are made available for students in my city because that's where the university's interests lie, but accessible by anyone).
I think unfortunately you probably don't have much recourse on the estimated heating bills and the peeking through your windows, but you absolutely should be compensated for the dressers. You could possibly also be compensated for him still using the property for his own purposes (clearing out previous tenant's stuff) after your own lease had started.
Is the deck re-build in writing? The increased rent might be hard to fight if not.
I am not a lawyer so the usual disclaimers apply.
DH works for a small college that is amazingly supportive of their faculty, so I will have him check out what they offer. I'll bet they will have something.
I am definitely going to seek compensation for the dressers. Especially because we are going to need to buy dressers to replace them (DH has all his stuff in underbed boxes and a suitcase still) and while they were free for us, they were fairly valuable pieces.
The porch rebuild is not in writing. He seems to do his best to dodge getting things in writing. It took us 3 weeks after the move (so 8 weeks after putting money down) to finally get a lease from him, which we needed to get drivers licenses and register the kids for school.
I'm honestly not positive what I'm looking for. I guess advice as to whether, if this is all documented, it could lead up to cause for breaking my lease before June.
We moved the dressers in the day the least started. He has changed the subject every time we brought it up. We don't expect money for the sentimental value, but they were solid maple dressers and were worth decent money.
Like others have said, laws are state specific. However, from what you described and I briefly looked in to rental laws in PA previously it doesn't sound like you can break the lease without paying whatever fee is in your lease based on what you've said here. From what I remember in order to withhold rent or break a lease without penalty it had to be some pretty serious infractions like the place isn't livable, such as the landlord shut off the electricity.
I've had one sketchy landlord situation and this is how I handled it:
First, he promised a basement would be finished and it wasn't so I asked for money off the rent. After a couple of conversations he finally agreed and I put it in writing in email.
Although email is great, it's easy for people to ignore your emails. So what I started doing with my sketchy landlord is I would call him and get him to make a decision on the phone. Then, I would immediately follow up with an email to him saying for example, "To confirm, as per our phone conversation this morning, you agreed that the rent would be lowered to X amount." He would usually reply after that. That way I didn't have to sit around weeks waiting for his response via email, but still had something in writing.
Lastly, I never threatened getting a lawyer, but I did make it clear that he couldn't just pull the wool over my eyes and made sure to site anything legal or provide links of examples of things he was doing incorrectly. For example, our basement kept flooding, everyone said we needed a sump pump, but he was being stingy and said we didn't need it. So I did my research about why a sump pump was needed and sent it to him. He finally put the sump pump in and that fixed the flooding.
I hope you find some resolutions soon.
Thanks so much! Yes, several of our emails have been follow ups to phone conversations to ensure everything is in writing. I may threaten to deduct money from the rent until the porch is redone.
Thanks so much! Yes, several of our emails have been follow ups to phone conversations to ensure everything is in writing. I may threaten to deduct money from the rent until the porch is redone.
Don't do this. If he didn't put it in writing, what right do you have to do that? Landlord tenant law typically favors the tenant, but once you start withholding rent for things that aren't legally obligated to you, you definitely lose ground. Be VERY SURE your local laws protect you for doing it before you hold rent.
Thanks so much! Yes, several of our emails have been follow ups to phone conversations to ensure everything is in writing. I may threaten to deduct money from the rent until the porch is redone.
Don't do this. If he didn't put it in writing, what right do you have to do that? Landlord tenant law typically favors the tenant, but once you start withholding rent for things that aren't legally obligated to you, you definitely lose ground. Be VERY SURE your local laws protect you for doing it before you hold rent.
Good point, thank you! And FWIW they approached us about doing a rent to own with them. I'm so glad we said we weren't ready to commit yet (it's our first year in a new state, new town, new school district) because now we'll be able to neatly clean ties in June at the latest and won't have to deal with them again.
I would have the oil tank checked. When we lived in MD our last rental had an old oil tank and the cost was off, so the landlord had the company come out and check. There was a problem and he got it fixed. After that the costs were more in line with all the estimates.
I hate to tell you, but all of the guys promises have been verbal. You really have nothing in writing to support your case DO NOT withhold rent. That won't help you,
Best case scenario, let him know the utilities are too much $$ and ask about leaving early.
I would have the oil tank checked. When we lived in MD our last rental had an old oil tank and the cost was off, so the landlord had the company come out and check. There was a problem and he got it fixed. After that the costs were more in line with all the estimates.
Good luck with the other issues.
I think I will do that. It was bone dry when we moved in shortly after the last tenant left (less than a month) and seemed shady then too. And can I say how very much it sucked to go take a shower at the end of moving day and not be able to? That was seriously awful!
Thanks. I've had oil heat in the past and it was way less expensive, so this was a huge surprise and I'm not sure we can afford this place if that's an indicator on heating costs. And the dressers were worth at least a few hundred dollars. They were solid maple (and the employee who destroyed them commented on how well made they were...).
We send all communication through his wife's email at this point so it's in writing.
Do you think he's stealing your oil, or running the carriage house off of it?
Also, I would send him a letter, certified mail return receipt requested demanding a specific dollar value for the dressers.
I hadn't considered that! Shit! I know that the carriage house has electricity, no idea if it has heat. He has talked about turning it into a studio apartment and I wonder if it has its own oil tank.
And I will do that for the dressers. Good idea. Then he can't dispute it.
I would have the oil tank checked. When we lived in MD our last rental had an old oil tank and the cost was off, so the landlord had the company come out and check. There was a problem and he got it fixed. After that the costs were more in line with all the estimates.
Good luck with the other issues.
I think I will do that. It was bone dry when we moved in shortly after the last tenant left (less than a month) and seemed shady then too. And can I say how very much it sucked to go take a shower at the end of moving day and not be able to? That was seriously awful!
That sucks. We had an issue with our last rental in GA, when we moved in from several states away. For some reason the landlord didn't think the previous tenant would turn the water and power off, when her lease was up. Since she didn't remember and let a month laspe before doing any work, the landlord had a hard time getting the water and power turned on and getting all her maintenance work done. Thankfully, that was our only major issue with her and she turned out to be a sweet old lady.
Post by vanillacourage on Aug 22, 2014 13:47:56 GMT -5
I'm a landlord. With the exception of the dressers I don't know that anything else is actionable.
When my prospective tenants ask about utilities I ballpark it for them but also say they should call the relevant utility and get actual estimates from them. That is their responsibility.
Thanks. It's a SFH, so I'm not sure how that's regulated. I was afraid that misleading us wouldn't be technically illegal.
A lot of times verbal agreements in conjunction with a contract, especially a contract pertaining to real estate is not legally enforceable. Which is why the phrase, "GET IT IN WRITING" is something you hear a lot from lawyers. Not that there's anything you can do about it now, PLUS it gets to be kind of ridiculous because you might have lots of little questions when you're looking at a place to buy or rent and you're not going to get every single one of those answers "in writing." But big stuff, like, we're raising the rent because we're adding a porch - that's something that in the future you want to get in writing and retrospectively, I probably would have said something like, "Well, let's have a clause that says I'll increase rent payments by $100/mo upon completion of the porch." Anyway, that's just advice for future reference.
With your specific situation, there is probably a paragraph in your lease that says something to the effect of "This contract represents the entirety of the parties' agreement..." Look to see if you have that clause. If you have it, it makes it much harder to "enforce" those verbal agreements you had with him. If it's not there, you still may be on shaky ground because verbal representations in general are not always (and are mostly not) enforceable. This is truly one of those "it depends" kind of situations. And it depends on a WHOLE LOT. You might want to see if there is a tenant advocacy NPO in your area. You might actually be able to get some help from them or their website.
You may also want to google whether in your state (or municipality because some L/T law is local to the actual county/city) a landlord has to disclose the prior year's or anticipated upcoming utility expenses. I think in Cook County they do. Both of the places I rented did. That might help you with the oil issue.
Thank you so much for all that information. I think in the future I'm going to actually record the conversation as I go through a property and listen to it and write follow up emails about stuff. Lesson learned. I've always had good experiences with landlords until this point and never needed that. After this experience we also may just do a USDA 0% home loan next summer so we are done dealing with shitty landlords sooner (by then we should have a substantial enough savings to replace a furnace, etc., should we need to).
I'm not sure if they are required to disclose utility costs, but that's a great question. None of my previous landlords has ever asked to see copies of my utility bills, so not sure if they get that information another way or it's not law in NJ or NY (the two other states I've rented in).
I may look for a tenant advocacy NPO, that's a good idea. I've gotten involved with the democratic party and made some friends through that, so I may see if any of them knows who I can get in touch with.
I have no legal advice, but I call bullshit that they "destroyed" the dressers. Look on Craigslist.
Ya know...
Yeah.
I was even thinking, how do you "destroy" a dresser. Didn't they just take it to Good Will?
He said it didn't fit in the van he was using, so he used an ax to disassemble it. The employee who did it showed up the day we moved in to apologize in person (it was totally not his fault, he was following his boss's directions). He said as he was destroying it he kept thinking what a shame it was as it was high quality.
I'm a landlord. With the exception of the dressers I don't know that anything else is actionable.
When my prospective tenants ask about utilities I ballpark it for them but also say they should call the relevant utility and get actual estimates from them. That is their responsibility.
They told us they didn't know what oil company the last tenant used when we asked. We did call the electric company and the estimate there has been right in line with what we expected.