I definitely wouldn't go back! I was never offended or bothered by women breastfeeding, but now that I do it I just can't understand HOW I could be offending someone. What a bunch of BS.
Post by curbsideprophet on Sept 8, 2014 16:41:09 GMT -5
I am not Catholic, but I don't find mentioning the Pope and his views on the topic offensive.
Our church has a nursery and children's ministry. You are still allowed to bring your children to the service if you wish. Every once in awhile there will be a more mature topic and they will give a warning saying you might want to send your younger children to children's church.
I don't think the Pope's opinions of breastfeeding are going to have an effect on the leaders of a protestant church, if that's what op's is.
That said, this is some bullshit. I definitely think you should leave the church and alert the media.
Thank you. As an ex-Protestant, I get annoyed at everyone assuming the Pope means a damn thing to all Christians. I mean, he seems to be a good guy, and definitely an improvement over the last Pope, but he still holds no sway or importance to the church in which I grew up. And to assume otherwise seems very self-involved of Catholics.
Umm...I HATE when people reference priest or pope when the denomination isn't established. And as a 39yr practicing Catholic, nothing about this scenerio (children not welcome?) sounds like my denomination & hence would assume it's not Catholic. If Ifelt strongly I'd find a new church or if I loved the church otherwise, bring it up with leadership first.
Post by speckledfrog on Sept 8, 2014 17:49:09 GMT -5
Did you ask why it's not allowed? Is bottle feeding allowed? If it's not allowed because of boobs then it's ridiculous. If no feeding of babies is allowed then I can understand that because feeding a baby, in any manner, can be distracting to the people around you.
I know we had a poster on this board that dealt with the Catholic church she went to not being welcoming to her child in the service, yet like many Catholic churches they did not have a church nursery for the kid to go to.
I really disagree with churches not allowing kids in the service, and it is fucked up to ban breastfeeding in the service. I would absolutely raise a stink if after talking to the pastoral staff they reiterated this policy. And yes I would involve the media because churches need to get the fuck with the program if they want young families to go to church.
I think it is not too smart to make a big deal and say you will ask people to leave the service. But I would not be upset since they have places for nursing to happen. I am not a particularly modest person, but I can see how men and teenage boys would feel uncomfortable and I would not want cause distress/discomfort for them. I do not nurse in front of my father or brother for this reason.
Maybe they should have a special room for men and teenage boys in distress, then.
I'd talk to the priest, and depending on his response, switch churches. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that you can ask me to move while I'm NIP all you want, it doesn't mean my ass is getting up. So I would probably just go ahead and nurse regardless of their policy (not that that applies to you, since you said you're not nursing any more).
I would be really tempted to do exactly this and see how it plays out. Let's say you start nursing and they say, "you need to go nurse in the mothers' room." What are they going to do if you just look at them and say "I'm sorry you feel that way" (see what I did there?) then go about your business?
Will they have you forcibly removed? Pry your child off your breast? Kick you out of the church? Call the police to ask them to stop a member of their congregation from exercising her legal right to feed her child? I just don't see how they can win this one. If you feel up to it, call their bluff.
I would be really tempted to do exactly this and see how it plays out. Let's say you start nursing and they say, "you need to go nurse in the mothers' room." What are they going to do if you just look at them and say "I'm sorry you feel that way" (see what I did there?) then go about your business?
Will they have you forcibly removed? Pry your child off your breast? Kick you out of the church? Call the police to ask them to stop a member of their congregation from exercising her legal right to feed her child? I just don't see how they can win this one. If you feel up to it, call their bluff.
OP said she is no longer nursing, but this would be awesome.
Damn, I missed that. Who is nearby and lactating? I want to see if this church hires a bouncer to get the nursing moms out of the service.
People who don't want to see women feeding their babies can leave. Your family's issues and others like them are not a reason to make mothers leave the room.
I also have issues with the whole "men aren't responsible for their thoughts or actions" theme that underlies all the crap I heard about "modesty" as a child/teen/young woman in the church. My daughter will not be getting that messaging if we're still in church when she's old enough to understand it. And that messaging starts with kicking out a baby that needs to eat in church.
This point really hits home with me. The call for modesty 'so as not to cause your brothers to stumble' as it is often interpreted disgusts me. It feeds right into the idea that women 'ask' to be raped by 'tempting' men, and that is so absolutely repugnant. This blog has a really interesting discussion of it, in case you want to read more about the backstory:
I wish I hadn't been on a plane all day and missed the discussion! So I think if this was the church I grew up in I would have a harder time leaving, but this particular church we've been attending less than a year so we will start looking for a new one now. I would still like to take this issue up the chain of command because I really don't think it is right. I truly appreciate that they provide a nursing room, so that it can be an option for the mother. but to insist that she and the baby are not in the same room as everyone else seems so discriminatory.
FWIW, this is a protestant, non-denominational church. I think they are a member of the association of related churches, but honestly I don't know a lot about what that means. It's a big church, multiple services in multiple locations and after my talk with the Children's Pastor (who happens to be the wife of one of the pastors) I got the impression that they are so big and well established that who cares if I say I am leaving. They won't care what the pope says, but I have no problem throwing him out as an example of the leader of a huge christian organization who supports BFing.
When I was asking them about the policy, I didn't really ask why, which I regret in hindsight. In the moment I was just so flabbergasted and saying things like 'that can't truly be your policy, breastfeeding is completely normal' and 'you're basically telling me that as a nursing mother I was lesser then everyone else' and 'we're going to have to leave this church'. Now that I've calmed down, I plan to email the head pastor (maybe all the pastors?) and start with the question of why. One of the first sermons I heard from him was about how the theme of the church this year was going to be "open", and it's about opening the church up to the community, not judging others, being welcoming, etc. that seems to me completely opposed to the no BFing policy. After he replies (or in a followup if there is no reply) then I will come back with the legal side of things.
I appreciate everyone's comments. It really helps me clear my head and get my thoughts together.
Post by irishbride2 on Sept 8, 2014 20:24:26 GMT -5
My h is incredibly supportive of NIP. His one exception is in church. We have debated this a million times but after seeing full on nipple across the church (granted this particular woman was terrible at NIP) he will not let it go. Will NOT.LET.IT.GO.
Bfing without a cover in the middle of church makes him incredibly annoyed. We have decided to table this discussion because it does not end well for us. (And I'm someone who has never NIPed)
I'm so glad you are speaking out! I think CCing all the pastors and maybe the head of the children's department is a good idea. Also is there a women's ministry leader? I'd CC her too.
we got to the largest methodist church in the country and while they have a pimped out nursing mom's room with boppy's, gliders, and a flat screen displaying the sermon, there is no pressure to nurse there. You can nurse wherever you want.
I have a feeling their reason "why" has to do with modesty and perhaps a more patriarchal approach to Christianity than more liberal churches would take.
I don't think it's welcome in our church and there isn't a private place to nurse. I go out and nurse in the lobby. I just don't want to say anything or offend. Church crowds tend to skew old and for some reason, older people seem to be offended by nursing.
It's funny you say that because this church is so young. there are tons of young families and the church has a very contemporary feel.
No. No, no, no. I BFed in church pretty much every week for C's first year. Everyone survived.
Nursing rooms, while a nice gesture for those who aren't comfortable NIP, are not the same as being in the service. Separate is not equal.
I would, however, bring it up with church administration first and get some sort of official response before unleashing hell. It's possible that it's an old/outdated rule and they're willing to change it.
At first I thought this must've been a misunderstanding by the girl asked to leave, so I did clarify with one of the staff. I said to her that last week I saw someone asked to leave the service because she had her baby and the woman interrupted me to say "oh, it wasn't that she had her baby, she was breastfeeding!" said in an oh the horror tone. she said it's their official policy. Maybe they haven't thought it through... I don't know. Maybe the head pastor isn't aware? I kind of doubt that, but I will wait and see how he responds to me.
Is it specific to BF or kids in the service at all? Our church is strict with not having kids in the main service but have awesome kid programs. If the policy is specific to BF, I would escalate it and likely find a new church.
The very last row has a sign that says something like 'reserved for families with infants' or something similar. so it seems like babies are allowed, as long as they sit in the back.
Did you ask why it's not allowed? Is bottle feeding allowed? If it's not allowed because of boobs then it's ridiculous. If no feeding of babies is allowed then I can understand that because feeding a baby, in any manner, can be distracting to the people around you.
I just mentioned this in my last update but no, I didn't specifically ask. I guess I was in disbelief and not thinking. I will be asking though, so I know which one of their "reasons" to argue against.
My h is incredibly supportive of NIP. His one exception is in church. We have debated this a million times but after seeing full on nipple across the church (granted this particular woman was terrible at NIP) he will not let it go. Will NOT.LET.IT.GO.
Bfing without a cover in the middle of church makes him incredibly annoyed. We have decided to table this discussion because it does not end well for us. (And I'm someone who has never NIPed)
Years ago H and I attended a parish that had the altar in the middle of semi circle formation of pews around it. So if you were on the far side, there was a set of pews across from you, past the priest. One Sunday there was a family in our line of sight beyond the priest whose mother was off and on nursing a toddler. He was pretty much helping himself then getting distracted by his siblings, repeat. Well she must have been really engrossed in the sermon because the kid left and was down the pew and she still had her shirt unbuttoned and entire breast out. Of course she was right in our line of sight past the priests head. We were like do we motion to her? Will she eventually feel a cool breeze? What is the protocol here?
This makes me ragey as well, and I would absolutely leave (after helping organize a nurse-in....maybe.nit usually my thing but I'm appalled that a church is doing this). I'm glad you're contacting the head minister (I'd probably copy the entire ministry team) for clarification on the policy and to ask why - please update us on how in the world they remotely justify this.
DS is 26 months, and he still nurses in mass nearly every week. I've also nursed him without problem in my hometown Protestant church. A nursing and calm baby/toddler is much quieter than a crying one who wants to nurse.
Post by vanillacourage on Sept 8, 2014 22:44:42 GMT -5
I would escalate it and if they didn't change their policy, I'd do what I could to report them and/or exert legal pressure if they're breaking the law. But if you have to apply much "pressure" at all, I'd leave the church no matter what, because I could no longer respect their leadership. Like, if it's anything more than a total misunderstanding (which seems unlikely based on the wife's comment), I'd ghost.
My h is incredibly supportive of NIP. His one exception is in church. We have debated this a million times but after seeing full on nipple across the church (granted this particular woman was terrible at NIP) he will not let it go. Will NOT.LET.IT.GO.
Bfing without a cover in the middle of church makes him incredibly annoyed. We have decided to table this discussion because it does not end well for us. (And I'm someone who has never NIPed)
Years ago H and I attended a parish that had the altar in the middle of semi circle formation of pews around it. So if you were on the far side, there was a set of pews across from you, past the priest. One Sunday there was a family in our line of sight beyond the priest whose mother was off and on nursing a toddler. He was pretty much helping himself then getting distracted by his siblings, repeat. Well she must have been really engrossed in the sermon because the kid left and was down the pew and she still had her shirt unbuttoned and entire breast out. Of course she was right in our line of sight past the priests head. We were like do we motion to her? Will she eventually feel a cool breeze? What is the protocol here?
along with contacting the lead pastor, you church would most likely have some kind of board of leadership made up of members from the congregation. i would cc the chair(wo)man in on this early, because should it become a legal issue the board will be held responsible. it is in their best interest to address this with the pastors and amend the official policy to encourage use of a nursing moms room, but not require it. (or better yet NOT SAY A DAMN THING ABOUT NURSING MOMS.)
seriously, hours later and i'm still thinking about this. h and i have both worked as pastors so we were trying to think of how we'd like to see this played out. keep us posted. i hope to hear this story in the news
I am not religious and things like this drive me up the wall. However, I have learned the hard way that churches are exempt under certain laws so breast feeding regulations may not apply in all areas. For example the ADA doesn't completely apply to churches and they can ask (although state and individual church policy may differ) a service animal to leave.
I think it is not too smart to make a big deal and say you will ask people to leave the service. But I would not be upset since they have places for nursing to happen. I am not a particularly modest person, but I can see how men and teenage boys would feel uncomfortable and I would not want cause distress/discomfort for them. I do not nurse in front of my father or brother for this reason.
Look, the people who are "uncomfortable" seeing breastfeeding in public are exactly the people who need to see it. I'm not saying they need to sit right next to a nursing mom and stare at her breast while the baby is on it, and you can certainly be modest while doing it, but if people who are "uncomfortable" never see breastfeeding as normal/natural then they will always be uncomfortable and we will always have these problems.
I couldn't breastfeed, but while I was trying I sure did NIP. This is something I would find a new church over.