What all Christian/Catholic Churches SHOULD

[2curlydogs]

be like.

Via twitter. This is the "Welcome" message in Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church's bulletin.


We extend a special welcome to those who are single, married, divorced, gay, filthy rich, dirt poor, yo no habla Ingles. We extend a special welcome to those who are crying new-borns, skinny as a rail or could afford to lose a few pounds.

We welcome you if you can sing like Andrea Bocelli or like our pastor who can’t carry a note in a bucket. You’re welcome here if you’re “just browsing,” just woke up or just got out of jail. We don’t care if you’re more Catholic than the Pope, or haven’t been in church since little Joey’s Baptism.

We extend a special welcome to those who are over 60 but not grown up yet, and to teenagers who are growing up too fast. We welcome soccer moms, NASCAR dads, starving artists, tree-huggers, latte-sippers, vegetarians, junk-food eaters. We welcome those who are in recovery or still addicted. We welcome you if you’re having problems or you’re down in the dumps or if you don’t like “organized religion,” we’ve been there too.

If you blew all your offering money at the dog track, you’re welcome here. We offer a special welcome to those who think the earth is flat, work too hard, don’t work, can’t spell, or because grandma is in town and wanted to go to church.

We welcome those who are inked, pierced or both. We offer a special welcome to those who could use a prayer right now, had religion shoved down your throat as a kid or got lost in traffic and wound up here by mistake. We welcome tourists, seekers and doubters, bleeding hearts … and you!

www.jonacuff.com/stuffchristianslike/2012/07/how-to-welcome-people-to-your-church/

Let us build a house where love can dwell and all can safely live. A place where saints and children tell how hearts learns to forgive...

[NitaX]

Love it. My pastor always says that if you attend a church where everyone is Jesus Christ Jr., then you need to leave.

[Deleted]

lol I love it. Most of the Churches I've gone to are like that, but I also seek out liberal Catholic churches.

[druidp]

I think then that church would be considered Unitarian.

I absolutely agree with the welcoming sentiment - every word of it. But the sticker shock might come afterwards when congregants begin to be taught they are sinners, and their only reconciliation to God is through accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins. And then they'd begin to ask, "wait, you think my lifestyle is a sin - whaaaa?" And we're off to the races.

I have never attended a Unitarian church; my limited understanding is that they teach people to be more like Jesus, but perhaps not that their choices and lifestyles (aka sin) might be keeping them from eternal redemption unless they repent and change their ways.

And here we go, I'm sure. Just putting my perspective as a Christian/Lutheran who won't ever eat at Chick-Fil-A again out there.

[chichimi]

I think druid just touched on it. Churches should be welcoming everyone. But the reality is, we are ALL sinners and judging someone else for sinning differently is not Christlike. But the service is going to go on to say that the only way to avoid the punishment for that sin is God and to repent and strive to live a life that honors God and is not sinful. And thats the part that no one likes.

[eclaires]

I think most Catholic churches have autonomy over the donations of their parishoners - or at least a pretty significant portion of it.

And like Irish, I seek out churches that are liberal. It's much harder where we live now though, but usually (IME) it's the archdiocese that sets the tone. I grew up in one archdiocese and then when I went to college, I was in another diocese. The diocese that was over the area I went to college in was significantly more hardcore, strict, etc. I hated it and really drew away from the church in that time period.

[teflep]

Jul 26, 2012 10:06:10 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

This issue confuses me. Can you guys help? How do these liberal churches not get in Vatican hot water? They are Catholic churches, meaning they uphold the same doctrines, so don't they at their core still have the same beliefs that many of us object to? Does money from their community's tithes or weekly offerings go into a larger Catholic account, or does it stay local to their churches? Does supporting this kind of Catholic church with one's membership and money help a socially liberal person sidestep some of the sticky issues, or does it ultimately still support the Vatican, thorny teachings and all?
I truly hope I'm not coming off as a jerk by asking these questions. :/ I apologize in advance if I am presenting myself badly.

some of the weekly offering does go to the local diocese/archdiocese for running of the main workings of the area (basically, it is a tax and it is called cathedratucum). Much like our taxes can't pick and choose things like not supporting a war, it is the same in the CC.

[Deleted]

I've never ever ever heard my church preach anything about not being gay (or the like). The message is "be a good person to your fellow man."


And has been discussed COUNTLESS times on this board and others, the Church is not universal. Just because the Vatican says something doesn't mean every church follows it. Catholicism is BIG on questioning your faith and such. Many many priests have different views than the Vatican. Its not discouraged. Just because its a heirarchy doesn't mean the churches are lemmings.

[chichimi]

Jul 26, 2012 10:21:59 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Jul 26, 2012 10:11:06 GMT -5 @chichimi said:

I think druid just touched on it. Churches should be welcoming everyone. But the reality is, we are ALL sinners and judging someone else for sinning differently is not Christlike. But the service is going to go on to say that the only way to avoid the punishment for that sin is God and to repent and strive to live a life that honors God and is not sinful. And thats the part that no one likes.

Right, the message of welcome gets people in the door, but the message of (for example) "renounce your sin and live in celibacy" is going to become an issue for the ones who came in seeking welcome. Like, they're welcome to come in as a gay, but they'd better return as a non-practicing gay.
*Just using homosexuality as an example.

I dont know that any church expects people to return as a non-practicing gay or as a perfect Christian but they are charging people to strive to follow a Godly lifestyle. If you take that message away, its just coffee and donuts.

[Deleted]

oh, and I no longer tithe to my church for that reason, Voodoo (because a very small part goes to the Vatican). Instead, I donate to specific causes my church supports and programs they do that I support. So I give to my church and their programs without tithing.

[Deleted]

The nuns are getting flack because the vatican is being ridiculous.

but when it comes down to it, every diocese and church is different, and its like a lose franchise in many ways. I pick my church based on the individual church, not the Vatican who really doesn't interact with me and my faith at all. I can disagree with the vatican and still be Catholic.

but at the core of my Catholicism is this: I believe that good people go to heaven. End of story. I do not believe you have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior (like most protestants). THAT, to me, is the central tenant. And we focus on being good people and being kind to our fellow man.

[Deleted]

Voodoo: our catechism states that "assent of faith is by no means a blind impulse of the mind" and it goes on to push us to question and that faith is an intellectual exercise. Its the foundation of why the Church has always been in the business of education.

[eclaires]

I think if you ask ten Catholics, you'll get ten different answers.

But, I went to Catholic schools mostly from k-12 (I had one year in public b/c we moved to an area with no nearby Catholic school), and I went to schools in the same deanery from grades 2-12. And we were always taught that it was our duty as Catholics to question teachings. To challenge the Church. And that we shouldn't blindly follow anything.

And IME, no, gay marriage is not a belief that is part of core Catholic beliefs. I mean, it's not allowed, and marriage is between a man and a woman, but it's not something that is a core belief (to me). I have never even seen it mentioned in the churches I've attended or in school. Just that the sacrament of marriage is between a man and a woman (who haven't been married before to anyone else).

IDK, to me core beliefs of Catholicism are more along the lines of transubstantiation. Not teachings about marriage or even abortion - although I do believe that abortion falls closer to core beliefs in that the Church does believe in a whole culture of life (anti-DP, anti-abortion, etc.), not just w/r/t abortion.

[Deleted]

I agree with eclairs. I think the two cores of the church are Transubstantiation and Good Works (being a good person = heaven)

[aurora]

I could have imagined such a welcoming message at the Catholic church I attended growing up. And, although I am no longer Catholic for other reasons, I do have to say that I never experienced a service turning around and becoming bigoted. There certainly were discussions about how we all sinned, but it wasn't targeted at specific groups.

Other Catholic churches do things differently, of course.

[eclaires]

Jul 26, 2012 10:51:31 GMT -5 @irishbride said:

I agree with eclairs. I think the two cores of the church are Transubstantiation and Good Works (being a good person = heaven)

I agree w/ that as well.

One thing that has always drawn me to being Catholic (besides my whole cradle to grave sitch, lol) is that it doesn't exclude others from being able to make it to heaven just b/c they aren't Catholic. You don't have to be saved in that way. Good people go, regardless.

[winnied]

This is why I also attend a liberal Catholic Church. Not only does mine welcome everyone it actively reaches out and ministers to those persecuted in society.

I don't have anything else to add but *snaps* to Irish and eclaires. Well stated, ladies.

[Deleted]

I also think of it this way: its like being born into a family.

I'm Catholic, also, because I was born Catholic. Just like there are things I disagree with my parents about, there are things I disagree with the Church about. I will argue with my parents about some of their beliefs, but I don't disown them for it. There are things I would disown my parents for, theoretically, but that hasn't had to happen. Same thing with the Church. I don't agree with everything, but I'm not going to disown them just because I don't agree with everything the Vatican does.

[2vermont]

Are you guys going to make me come out of lurkdom on this one?

[2curlydogs]

This is where I go into my soapbox of Dogma, Doctrine and Discipline and the grades of Theological Certainty.

In general, to consider yourself Catholic, you have to believe in those teachings that are declared as De Fide or Fides Ecclasiastica. These are teachings which are consider infallible - such as transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, the Trinity, etc. Anything in the Creed is Dogma.

Below that - Sententia Fidei Proxima and Sententia Certa - is considered Doctrine, which is regarded as general theological truth, but not necessariliy fully promulgated by the magesterium as such. This covers the vast majority of Church teaching.

All Dogma is Doctrine but not all Doctrine is Dogma.

And then you have Discipline, which covers things like fasting during Lent, Eucharistic Adoration, Stations of the Cross, etc.

[aurora]

Jul 26, 2012 12:44:08 GMT -5 2vermont said:

Are you guys going to make me come out of lurkdom on this one?

Well, I was going to specifically say we couldn't have a Catholic thread while 2V is on a break, but I didn't know if that would be weird.

[lys]

ALL churches should welcome everyone. Church is for sinners, not saints.
Money from the tithes/offerings is spent for the support of the local church, community aid service and missions. Some goes to the larger church .

[2curlydogs]

The key part is "proportionate to the authority that they possess and that they mean to exercise".

So, the Magisterium of the Church is bishops, archbishops, cardinals, pope. It's largely the entire heirarchy, ok? So declarations on faith are proportionate to their rank - archbishop outranks bishop, cardinal outranks archbishop, etc. on up to the Pope outranking everyone in terms of ecclesiastical authority. So if a bishop says one thing and an archbishop says another, archbishop "wins" in terms of authority.

Then, within the ranks, there is what authority they mean to exercise. This is most easily demonstrated with the Pope. The Pope can speak in several "terms". Ex Cathedra is the most authoritative - literally meaning "from the chair". When the pope speaks ex cathedra, he's speaking in terms of infaliable doctrine - so either De Fide or Fides Ecclasiastica.

At a practical level, if I'm having a chat about religion with Timothy Cardinal Dolan, that carries less weight than if he were speaking to me from the pulpit or exercising his authority as head of the ACOC.

Also, to give an illustration of some of the hair splitting we're talking about, an example of teaching that is Fides Ecclasiastica is that Christ was not only concieved without original sin but that he never sinned period. That is infalliable Church teaching. Then, an example of Sententia Fidei Proxima, Catholics also belive that not only did Christ never sin but that he was INCAPABLE of sinning. That's accepted as teaching from divine revelation but not defined as such by the Magisterium.

As far as VatII, it doesn't really limit dissent, though I'd suggest it restricts the framework in which one can dissent. You hear V2 talk about "rogue" priests teaching against the church, you should have seen and heard what was going on in the 60s. So VatII was attempting to reign those priests in at the same time it was trying to modernize (the loss of the Latin Mass, etc.) and extend eccumenical feelers to other Christian denominations. VII was very much a contradition of goals.

[2curlydogs]

Also, it should be pointed out that dissent that we're talking about does not equal private disagreement. A person can disagree with Church teaching and struggle with what that means for their personal faith without being a "bad" Catholic.

Am I making sense? I may or may not have had a couple glasses of wine tonight (it's my Friday).

[JLN]

Jul 26, 2012 10:00:48 GMT -5 druidp said:

I have never attended a Unitarian church; my limited understanding is that they teach people to be more like Jesus, but perhaps not that their choices and lifestyles (aka sin) might be keeping them from eternal redemption unless they repent and change their ways.

Yes, minus the actual Jesus.

[taratru]

I'm going to just ditto Irish here and add my anecdote:

When I showed up in my parish priest's office, divorced and pregnant out-of-wedlock, his advice was, "Do not get married. Being married is not going to make you a better parent for this child." I couldn't believe it. I loved him so much for that. And the entire parish was SO supportive of me the whole time. I loved that parish. There are so many out there like that.

[badtzmaru22]

I'm usually just a lurker, and infrequent poster on MM, but here is a good article that shows how each diocese can be very different, as a pp mentioned. Summary: bishop is retiring. Has clashed with the Vatican over the years, sometimes the Vatican just ignored him, overall still a very liberal diocese, even though one church did have to change and not be affiliated with the Vatican anymore.
www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20120714/NEWS01/307140009/Bishop-Matthew-H-Clark-retirement

[teflep]

Jul 26, 2012 11:01:10 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Jul 26, 2012 10:51:31 GMT -5 @irishbride said:

I agree with eclairs. I think the two cores of the church are Transubstantiation and Good Works (being a good person = heaven)

I agree w/ that as well.

One thing that has always drawn me to being Catholic (besides my whole cradle to grave sitch, lol) is that it doesn't exclude others from being able to make it to heaven just b/c they aren't Catholic. You don't have to be saved in that way. Good people go, regardless.

well Said.

[heliocentric]

Jul 26, 2012 22:27:40 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Also, to give an illustration of some of the hair splitting we're talking about, an example of teaching that is Fides Ecclasiastica is that Christ was not only concieved without original sin but that he never sinned period. That is infalliable Church teaching. Then, an example of Sententia Fidei Proxima, Catholics also belive that not only did Christ never sin but that he was INCAPABLE of sinning. That's accepted as teaching from divine revelation but not defined as such by the Magisterium.

I didn't know this. (I guess I didn't pay attention in school.) I recall being told that Jesus was god and man and that as man he was subject to the same temptations & human desires as me. This always gave me hope. Like if Jesus was human (well, human & divine) and could be good, so could I. The above makes me feel like I really don't have a chance, so why even bother. Jesus was NOTHING like me at all.

This is just one example of many that I always struggled with. It's like God made us "defective" yet still expects us to be perfect. It always seems a little twisted to me.

Sorry to highjack.

[2curlydogs]

Jul 27, 2012 7:24:03 GMT -5 heliocentric said:

Jul 26, 2012 22:27:40 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Also, to give an illustration of some of the hair splitting we're talking about, an example of teaching that is Fides Ecclasiastica is that Christ was not only concieved without original sin but that he never sinned period. That is infalliable Church teaching. Then, an example of Sententia Fidei Proxima, Catholics also belive that not only did Christ never sin but that he was INCAPABLE of sinning. That's accepted as teaching from divine revelation but not defined as such by the Magisterium.

I didn't know this. (I guess I didn't pay attention in school.) I recall being told that Jesus was god and man and that as man he was subject to the same temptations & human desires as me. This always gave me hope. Like if Jesus was human (well, human & divine) and could be good, so could I. The above makes me feel like I really don't have a chance, so why even bother. Jesus was NOTHING like me at all.

This is just one example of many that I always struggled with. It's like God made us "defective" yet still expects us to be perfect. It always seems a little twisted to me.

Sorry to highjack.

He was subject to the same tempations as other people. There's plenty of evidence in the bible to support this - the temptation by Satan in the desert and the agony in the garden of gethsemany are two that come to mind.

But there is that fully divine thing. You can't be fully divine - literally an aspect of God - and sin. You're not God if you sin, or even can sin. KWIM?

And now we're really starting to delve into the esoterica of the Church. LOL