WWYD: Take the money or go to court?

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 19:58:38 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

Take her to court. She needs to live up to the contract. And the Gag Order is total bullshit. She is trying to cover her ass because she wants to keep breeding these two dogs. What an unethical hag.

I have an Addisonian dog and yes, the medications are expensive. I would say about $70- 80/month for a 60-ish lb dog once you figure in the pills, shots and regular blood tests. She was diagnosed at 3 and is almost 5 now, so we likely have another 5-8 years of the daily pills and monthly shots. Our sweet Pointer/Boxer mix Willow has gotten the shaft from her Pointer background since they are known for both Addison's and hypothyroidism and she had both. So she is a medical wreck. But we love her.

I will say that after doing a shitton of research on Addison's in dogs, that while it is apparent that there is a genetic component to the disease, there isn't a definite test to ID the genetic marker in dogs to see if they will develop the disease, even in the breeds that have a tendency toward the disease (not sure if Frenchies are known to develop it or not). So while she is a shitty human, who shouldn't be breeding any dogs that has an Addisonian pup, there is currently no test she could have run to check for to see if your pup would develop Addison's.

I agree and know that there is no test for Addison's and you cannot be sure a dog will develop it. This is what makes me nervous about court. Also, my dog is very young to have been diagnosed. Had he been diagnosed after 1 year, she probably would not be held responsible. She only gives a 1 year health guarantee. Since he was diagnosed at <6 months, I have a case. There is not data on Addison's in frenchies (in Portuguese water dogs and a few with higher incidence rates, yes). The breeder says she knew nothing about Addison's disease when I first told her the vets suspected it.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 19:50:15 GMT -5 @sfgal530 said:

chloesilverado, I don't post here often but have you considered contacting animal rights groups in your area? I know you said the AKC doesn't seem like they will do anything, but try your local SPCA or animal shelter. They may very well be able to get involved and help shut her down, or at the very least help you get the press you need to have this issue exposed.

I had not thought of this. Thank you, I will look into it.

[EmilieMadison]

Take her to court, then blast her on social media for being an irresponsible, lying, unethical backyard breeder.

[isabel]

I'm confused as to why you have concerns about taking her to court. This is an inherited, genetic disorder. Whether she was aware of the potential problem or even knows what it is doesn't matter. That's NOT the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that she gave you a health guarantee that says (I'm guessing here) if the dog has any sort of genetic problem that would cause death or undue hardship on the owner, that she agrees to replace the dog with another, similar dog. She is NOT holding up her end of the bargain because she has refused to replace the dog. Further, you believe, based on your research, that despite the fact that she couldn't have known about this issue, that there is a direct link to the genetics of these dogs and that you wouldn't trust another animal you receive not to have the same problem.

Someone spell this out more clearly for me if I'm being dumb about this.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 19:44:40 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Oct 13, 2014 19:18:53 GMT -5 chloesilverado said:

Dogs with Addisons can live relatively normal lives. My dog will probably only need a monthly shot and maybe daily medication. It's fatal if not treated but they still need to have their stress closely monitored, etc.

Key word here is *can*. I'm not trying to scare you, but I had a great dane from a VERY similar breeder that was dx at 9 months. He died at 4. You have no idea what I went through with that dog. Two different types of cancer, fucking ecoli in his face (no clue how that even happened, but it blew up to a huge mass and ruptured in the middle of the night) , and none of those are what killed him. It was the Addison's. He went into a crisis and never pulled out. NO clue why he went into it, but he was at the vet, then evet immediately. He was 90lbs and hairless when he died. I probably spent over $10k on that dog in the 4.5 years I had him.

I am LIVID that she's still breeding the mom, but I'm not surprised. Fuck her and her fucking gag order.

Thank you for this. I read a lot of things saying how he'll be just fine. It's good to see the other side. I'm sorry about your pup.

[pixy0stix]

You want to know what to do, but don't want to do what is available to you. I'm not sure how to help you then.

DO NOT SIGN THE GAG ORDER!

[wysiwyg]

Honestly, as PP said, you could *possibly* get law enforcement of some kind on this. Back yard breeding can be considered animal abuse and is not looked kindly upon by the SPCA or other animal rights groups.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 20:11:50 GMT -5 isabel said:

I'm confused as to why you have concerns about taking her to court. This is an inherited, genetic disorder. Whether she was aware of the potential problem or even knows what it is doesn't matter. That's NOT the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that she gave you a health guarantee that says (I'm guessing here) if the dog has any sort of genetic problem that would cause death or undue hardship on the owner, that she agrees to replace the dog with another, similar dog. She is NOT holding up her end of the bargain because she has refused to replace the dog. Further, you believe, based on your research, that despite the fact that she couldn't have known about this issue, that there is a direct link to the genetics of these dogs and that you wouldn't trust another animal you receive not to have the same problem.

Someone spell this out more clearly for me if I'm being dumb about this.

You're not being dumb. All this is correct. She refused to replace the dog, but that was after I asked for the partial refund and told her I would keep him. I didn't want him replaced. I found out about her breeding the mom after this discussion.

[Deleted]

I agree with the pp, I would take her to court just to teach her a lesson. I would also put her on blast on craigslist, yelp, BBB any place she could be registered. I would also call the local shelters and let them know about her. This is her business and it's wrong.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 13, 2014 20:18:41 GMT -5 wysiwyg said:

Honestly, as PP said, you could *possibly* get law enforcement of some kind on this. Back yard breeding can be considered animal abuse and is not looked kindly upon by the SPCA or other animal rights groups.

It's hard, especially if the breeder is keeping the pups and mom in good condition.

The best recourse would be court, discrediting on the internet, and going through the local and national breed clubs to get the breeder discredited there. Unfortunately the news won't give a fuck.

Sometimes contacting whatever governing body there is for breeders in the state can bring some consequences as well.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 20:17:24 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

You want to know what to do, but don't want to do what is available to you. I'm not sure how to help you then.

DO NOT SIGN THE GAG ORDER!

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.... I just wanted other people's perspective. If I felt comfortable with signing the gag order or only cared about the money I would have signed it and not posted here. I'm appreciative of everyone's advice. I've never dealt with anything like this before.

[isabel]

Oct 13, 2014 20:18:57 GMT -5 chloesilverado said:

Oct 13, 2014 20:11:50 GMT -5 isabel said:

I'm confused as to why you have concerns about taking her to court. This is an inherited, genetic disorder. Whether she was aware of the potential problem or even knows what it is doesn't matter. That's NOT the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that she gave you a health guarantee that says (I'm guessing here) if the dog has any sort of genetic problem that would cause death or undue hardship on the owner, that she agrees to replace the dog with another, similar dog. She is NOT holding up her end of the bargain because she has refused to replace the dog. Further, you believe, based on your research, that despite the fact that she couldn't have known about this issue, that there is a direct link to the genetics of these dogs and that you wouldn't trust another animal you receive not to have the same problem.

Someone spell this out more clearly for me if I'm being dumb about this.

You're not being dumb. All this is correct. She refused to replace the dog, but that was after I asked for the partial refund and told her I would keep him. I didn't want him replaced. I found out about her breeding the mom after this discussion.

Ok, but you have all this in writing, yes? She refused, in writing, to replace the dog? So, what does it matter what you offered? If she were following her own contract, she would have said, "unfortunately, I am unable to refund your money. However, I would be happy to replace the dog for you and find a more suitable home for the one you return." She's being incredibly shady and not following the terms SHE laid out. Small claims court is really not that hyper-focused on the law. They listen to both sides and use logic to determine who is in the wrong. Yes, the law matters, but the magistrate is going to look at what is reasonable also. There is no reason to be concerned about taking her to court just because the breeder couldn't have known about the disease. That does not matter.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 13, 2014 20:19:35 GMT -5 tarzanswife said:

I agree with the pp, I would take her to court just to teach her a lesson. I would also put her on blast on craigslist, yelp, BBB any place she could be registered. I would also call the local shelters and let them know about her. This is her business and it's wrong.

Local vets, too, so they can watch and test the puppies coming in if they are sick.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 13, 2014 20:22:25 GMT -5 chloesilverado said:

Oct 13, 2014 20:17:24 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

You want to know what to do, but don't want to do what is available to you. I'm not sure how to help you then.

DO NOT SIGN THE GAG ORDER!

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.... I just wanted other people's perspective. If I felt comfortable with signing the gag order or only cared about the money I would have signed it and not posted here. I'm appreciative of everyone's advice. I've never dealt with anything like this before.

What, exactly, do you want? Do you want to shut her down? At this point you're not going to get your money back. That ship has passed.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 20:21:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 13, 2014 20:18:41 GMT -5 wysiwyg said:

Honestly, as PP said, you could *possibly* get law enforcement of some kind on this. Back yard breeding can be considered animal abuse and is not looked kindly upon by the SPCA or other animal rights groups.

It's hard, especially if the breeder is keeping the pups and mom in good condition.

The best recourse would be court, discrediting on the internet, and going through the local and national breed clubs to get the breeder discredited there. Unfortunately the news won't give a fuck.

Sometimes contacting whatever governing body there is for breeders in the state can bring some consequences as well.

All the dogs are in good condition. I've been to where she lives, seen the dogs, etc. They all live indoors. She shows them at local and national dog shows.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 13, 2014 20:25:23 GMT -5 chloesilverado said:

Oct 13, 2014 20:21:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

It's hard, especially if the breeder is keeping the pups and mom in good condition.

The best recourse would be court, discrediting on the internet, and going through the local and national breed clubs to get the breeder discredited there. Unfortunately the news won't give a fuck.

Sometimes contacting whatever governing body there is for breeders in the state can bring some consequences as well.

All the dogs are in good condition. I've been to where she lives, seen the dogs, etc. They all live indoors. She shows them at local and national dog shows.

Then anything through the government is out. Mainly they care about welfare, and as long as the dogs are healthy (no diseases through dirty conditions), fed, and watered, they can't do anything.

[pixy0stix]

For real, though, start by emailing the local breed club asking for advice on how to care for your dog. Drop in the dog's lineage and breeder's name. Do the same for the national breed club. Search out message boards for your breed and do the same thing. The only thing that's really going to get her is word of mouth/discrediting within the community. That's why she wants to shut you up.

[Deleted]

Wait...your pup is around 6 months old? And this cunt has already bred the mom again? Burnt this backyard breeding cunt DOWN!!! Go to court and post this everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

(I'm on the Board of a local rescue. This is NOT responsible, ethical breeding AT ALL.)

[pixy0stix]

Scorched earth (heh berbles) is a LOT of work.

I'll tell you right now you will not get your money back through the court. CO, where I am, has a set amount that you can claim for injury against animals (I think, this is from ~7 years ago). It was ridiculously small and not worth it to get our money back. Our focus was mainly to shut them down, which we exploited every avenue available to us from befriending a local reporter, to talking and working with the authorities, visiting vet clinics and talking to local vets (who some were threatened with lawsuits from the shelter), using message boards and craigslist, and getting advice from other rescues. Everyone wanted them shut down, they just needed a couple of loudmouths to start speaking up.

[jlt19]

mp is involved with frenchies, right? She may have some contacts you can at least spread this breeder's name to.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 20:55:58 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

mp is involved with frenchies, right? She may have some contacts you can at least spread this breeder's name to.

I believe this breeder may be affiliated with the same rescue though I'm not sure (she was wearing a t-shirt of theirs once I went to visit the puppies). I tried to adopt through this rescue before getting the puppy from the breeder so I am somewhat familiar with the organization.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 20:24:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 13, 2014 20:22:25 GMT -5 chloesilverado said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.... I just wanted other people's perspective. If I felt comfortable with signing the gag order or only cared about the money I would have signed it and not posted here. I'm appreciative of everyone's advice. I've never dealt with anything like this before.

What, exactly, do you want? Do you want to shut her down? At this point you're not going to get your money back. That ship has passed.

I originally wanted the 2/3 she agreed to when we spoke on the phone. Now I'm not sure. Yes, the money would be nice, but I don't want this to happen to someone else if there is something I can do to try to prevent it.

[killercupcake]

thewrongpuppy.com/

Contact them. They can help you out a ton. I speak from personal experience.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 20:42:07 GMT -5 @beachbella said:

Wait...your pup is around 6 months old? And this cunt has already bred the mom again? Burnt this backyard breeding cunt DOWN!!! Go to court and post this everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

(I'm on the Board of a local rescue. This is NOT responsible, ethical breeding AT ALL.)

He will be 6 months on the 18th. Her website says they hope for November puppies.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 21:25:56 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Are you planning to keep him? I remember how much I cried getting rid of him, and it had only been 6 days. It sucks when you wait so long and then get a messed up puppy:(

So, she shows her dogs and is recognized as a good breeder? She doesn't sound like one.

Yes, I had told her I would keep him and pay for his medical costs but would like a partial refund since I wasn't paying full price for an unhealthy dog. She agreed to the 2/3 refund then backed out on it and demanded vet bills, vet letter, etc. saying his disease wasn't covered under her health contract. I know her actions indicates she's a back yard breeder, but her dogs are shown in competitions and she's recognized as a good breeder. I spent time with her and her dogs before I purchased one. She's friends with other reputable breeders in the area.

[thedutchgirl]

Confidentiality in a settlement agreement is pretty standard. But this place is terrible and in your shoes I would rather publicize how terrible they are than get my money back.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 21:19:40 GMT -5 killercupcake said:

thewrongpuppy.com/

Contact them. They can help you out a ton. I speak from personal experience.

Thank you - I will look at this.

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 21:29:55 GMT -5 mp said:

Oct 13, 2014 21:15:56 GMT -5 chloesilverado said:

I believe this breeder may be affiliated with the same rescue though I'm not sure (she was wearing a t-shirt of theirs once I went to visit the puppies). I tried to adopt through this rescue before getting the puppy from the breeder so I am somewhat familiar with the organization.

Wearing a t shirt does not mean she is "affiliated" with the rescue. The rescue does not have any official breeder affiliations, though some breeders are also volunteers.

PM me the kennel name and I can float it to some contacts to see what their thoughts are.

Sent!

[killercupcake]

Oct 13, 2014 21:31:04 GMT -5 mp said:

Oct 13, 2014 21:19:40 GMT -5 killercupcake said:

thewrongpuppy.com/

Contact them. They can help you out a ton. I speak from personal experience.

The pied dog looking sadly at you in this photo? That's my Odie. That my exH has. 
thewrongpuppy.com/aboutus.html

I remember when you told me about this. I was shocked. 

[chloesilverado]

Oct 13, 2014 21:31:04 GMT -5 mp said:

Oct 13, 2014 21:19:40 GMT -5 killercupcake said:

thewrongpuppy.com/

Contact them. They can help you out a ton. I speak from personal experience.

The pied dog looking sadly at you in this photo? That's my Odie. That my exH has. 
thewrongpuppy.com/aboutus.html

I'm so sorry. I would have been so upset if I had the dogs when getting divorced and my ex got one/both.