Post by gibbinator on Nov 27, 2014 13:14:48 GMT -5
I haven't read the book, but I would say that between 10-12 weeks, both my kids started to naturally settle into a routine and evening fussing/cluster feeding from 7pm to 10pm became down for the night at 8pm-ish. Both of them also naturally started sttn (8-10 hrs) around 6-8 weeks.
So the expectations the author is setting up are not unreasonable for the age, but I think it's safe to say they are unattainable for a lot of babies as well. Different babies have different needs week to week (there are so many growth spurts those first couple months) and it's not really possible to force them into an eating schedule and expect them to be happy.
My ds1 would nurse every 3hrs like clockwork from birth to 11months,for 45mins to 1.5hrs at a time. Ds2 nurses every 2 hours but typically for <10mins.
Plus everything is a phase. Even if you did get her sttn, there's no guarantee it'll last once she grows out of the sleepy infant stage (aka 4 month wakeful). My ds1's sleep went right down the crapper for a year after that. You will read about people having to re-sleep train their kids several times because things just change.
Post by curbsideprophet on Nov 27, 2014 13:16:28 GMT -5
I also don't understand why you would want to change anything if you only have one night wake up. That is great at 8 weeks, enjoy it while it last.
I would consider an earlier bedtime. DD was a cluster feeding mess in the evenings. Things got better once we started putting her to bed earlier. We started with an early bedtime from the get go with DS just to make our life easier and it has worked out really well. He sometimes gets fussy in the evenings, but nothing like DD did.
I don't understand what you are trying to gain by following this book. I have not read it, but it sounds like I would disagree with lots of it.
My ds1 would nurse every 3hrs like clockwork from birth to 11months,for 45mins to 1.5hrs at a time. Ds2 nurses every 2 hours but typically for <10mins.
you are living the dream friend! Less than ten minutes! I want that sort of luck next time.
Haha, yeah, baby#2 is a magical independent, efficient eating, awesome sleeping, unicorn baby. I wish you similar luck You deserve it for sure!
Post by amaristella on Nov 27, 2014 14:04:15 GMT -5
I think that right now is a great age to start some routines. Routines defined as: first we do A, then b, then C in relation to sleep, or eating or playtime or whatever activity. Routines help to create associations which can be extremely helpful later on.
I would not do scheduling at that age for anything. Scheduling defined as set times (8pm, 6pm) or intervals, minimums or maximums for things like feeding or sleep. And most up-to-date doctors I bet will not recommend otherwise at that age. Every doctor A has seen has advocated feeding on demand.
As a lot of other people mentioned I'm an adult and I eat and sleep on demand. I don't expect anything different from my one year old. Sometimes he goes through a growth spurt, or teething, or is working on a new skill and I don't even realize until after it's done with.
I haven't read the book mentioned in the OP and can't speak to its pluses and minuses (though it sounds like the latter are present in abundance). I was simply mentioning that "routine" (not arbitrary strict schedule) doesn't equal starving your baby.
I don't understand on demand feeding in the long term (obviously it is necessary for newborns) because I don't know what my baby is demanding at any given time. He cries for many, many reasons besides hunger. I'm not sure he gets hungry enough to cry anymore, other than rare occasions when he makes it 7+ hours at night, because I am better anticipating his needs. (And he doesn't need to eat quite all the freaking time like a newborn.)
See, I don't think any of the "routines" mentioned in any help books are about starving your baby.
And I'm on the same page with you re why the baby is crying. I found out when nothing helped she did quiet down when I gave her a bottle so I assumed she was hungry but after an oz she would get upset and spit the formula out. Two nights ago, on a whim, I just gave her the nipple and collar of a bottle. She took it right away, sucked a few seconds, settled down and closed her eyes. It seems that out of the plethora of pacis I have for her, she prefers the bottle nipple. Go figure. But she wasn't hungry at those times.
I also don't understand why you would want to change anything if you only have one night wake up. That is great at 8 weeks, enjoy it while it last.
I would consider an earlier bedtime. DD was a cluster feeding mess in the evenings. Things got better once we started putting her to bed earlier. We started with an early bedtime from the get go with DS just to make our life easier and it has worked out really well. He sometimes gets fussy in the evenings, but nothing like DD did.
I don't understand what you are trying to gain by following this book. I have not read it, but it sounds like I would disagree with lots of it.
My goal is an earlier bedtime, actually. It doesn't seem to be happening since she doesn't calm down from her witching hr until at least 9, though she is so tired during that time. She won't sleep from 4 to 9 and it's frustrating. I hear the fussiness calms down soon so maybe I can work on earlier bedtimes in a few weeks.
I'm not sure I wanted to change anything, was just wondering if this is a routine worth following. I guess it's not!
I also don't understand why you would want to change anything if you only have one night wake up. That is great at 8 weeks, enjoy it while it last.
I would consider an earlier bedtime. DD was a cluster feeding mess in the evenings. Things got better once we started putting her to bed earlier. We started with an early bedtime from the get go with DS just to make our life easier and it has worked out really well. He sometimes gets fussy in the evenings, but nothing like DD did.
I don't understand what you are trying to gain by following this book. I have not read it, but it sounds like I would disagree with lots of it.
My goal is an earlier bedtime, actually. It doesn't seem to be happening since she doesn't calm down from her witching hr until at least 9, though she is so tired during that time. She won't sleep from 4 to 9 and it's frustrating. I hear the fussiness calms down soon so maybe I can work on earlier bedtimes in a few weeks.
I'm not sure I wanted to change anything, was just wondering if this is a routine worth following. I guess it's not!
There is a great chance that the earlier bedtime will happen on its own if you can give it a few more weeks. It seems like most babies around here settle into an earlier (like 6-8pm) bedtime around 3-4 months?
Mine didn't, so we addressed it. Here is a great article by the group of sleep consultants we used. About halfway through she discusses late bedtimes and how to move them earlier.
Can I ask a dumb question? Why is it a problem if she's snacking frequently vs having larger meals with more time in between? Like, what would you be doing in that time that's better than giving her a bottle?
I'm firmly in the follow the baby's lead and do whatever works to keep her happy camp. It sounds to me like you're doing pretty good if she only wakes up once to eat at night at 8 weeks. She'll outgrow the witching hour soon - just be patient and follow her lead.
I also don't understand why you would want to change anything if you only have one night wake up. That is great at 8 weeks, enjoy it while it last.
I would consider an earlier bedtime. DD was a cluster feeding mess in the evenings. Things got better once we started putting her to bed earlier. We started with an early bedtime from the get go with DS just to make our life easier and it has worked out really well. He sometimes gets fussy in the evenings, but nothing like DD did.
I don't understand what you are trying to gain by following this book. I have not read it, but it sounds like I would disagree with lots of it.
My goal is an earlier bedtime, actually. It doesn't seem to be happening since she doesn't calm down from her witching hr until at least 9, though she is so tired during that time. She won't sleep from 4 to 9 and it's frustrating. I hear the fussiness calms down soon so maybe I can work on earlier bedtimes in a few weeks.
I'm not sure I wanted to change anything, was just wondering if this is a routine worth following. I guess it's not!
Just wait a few more weeks and attempt an earlier bedtime (with low expectations for success) every few days. She'll probably naturally start sleeping earlier.
DS slept 12 hours at 7 weeks without waking. He ate every 1.5 -2 hours all day long. He needed to " tank up" so he could sleep long stretches at night. I didn't sleep train at all until 7 months & that was for going down not MOTN stuff.
Routine. & consistency were a huge help in getting DS to get enough sleep. At 3 weeks we started EASY & a loose bedtime routine. Stretching a babies feedings during the day seems like a way to make them angry & tired & wakeups more often at night.
Haven't read the book. Have two kids whose sleeping and eating patterns were very different, so I know there's not a one-size-fits-all answer. All I can say is that DS (4 months old) only wakes about once/night to feed between 6pm and about 6 or 7 am, but he still eats every 1.5 hours-2 hours during the day. If he happens to take a longer nap than usual or we're out and about and I want to wait to be home (instead of nursing him on the subway), he can go maybe 3 or 3.5 hours. 4 hours is a no-go during the day. And I know he's not snacking since a recent nipple destruction incident led me to bottle feed him for five days straight while I healed. He was drinking 6 oz. Of EBM at a time and still would only go as long as 3.5 hours max between daytime feedings.
Again, this is purely anecdotal, but it seems like extending time between feedings wouldn't have much to do with STTN.
Neither of my kids has ever consistently woken up at the same time every day, no matter their bedtime, but I do have to just wake up DD for school in the morning regardless. I think that's what you will have to do with your LO when you go back to work.
Can I ask a dumb question? Why is it a problem if she's snacking frequently vs having larger meals with more time in between? Like, what would you be doing in that time that's better than giving her a bottle?
I'm firmly in the follow the baby's lead and do whatever works to keep her happy camp. It sounds to me like you're doing pretty good if she only wakes up once to eat at night at 8 weeks. She'll outgrow the witching hour soon - just be patient and follow her lead.
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I was thinking the same thing.
OP, let your baby do baby things. Newborns eat a lot and sleep a lot and fuss a lot. That's just what they do and there isn't a need to find a way to hurry them along. Step away from the books - especially these awful snake oil ones - and pay attention to your baby's rhythms. Routines will be good for both of you in that she knows C follows B which follows A, but schedules are bad news. I'd say the same thing to whoever recommended this book.
I also don't understand why you would want to change anything if you only have one night wake up. That is great at 8 weeks, enjoy it while it last.
I would consider an earlier bedtime. DD was a cluster feeding mess in the evenings. Things got better once we started putting her to bed earlier. We started with an early bedtime from the get go with DS just to make our life easier and it has worked out really well. He sometimes gets fussy in the evenings, but nothing like DD did.
I don't understand what you are trying to gain by following this book. I have not read it, but it sounds like I would disagree with lots of it.
My goal is an earlier bedtime, actually. It doesn't seem to be happening since she doesn't calm down from her witching hr until at least 9, though she is so tired during that time. She won't sleep from 4 to 9 and it's frustrating. I hear the fussiness calms down soon so maybe I can work on earlier bedtimes in a few weeks.
I'm not sure I wanted to change anything, was just wondering if this is a routine worth following. I guess it's not!
DD kept moving her bedtime back an hour or so with every major growth spurt. As a NB, she would cluster feed from 7-11pm every night then fall asleep around midnight. There was 0% chance of her falling asleep before then. By the time I went back to work at 12 weeks, she was going to sleep around 10pm. It took her until she was about a year old before she settled into her 8pm bedtime. I wouldn't have a lot of confidence that you can move her bedtime, especially at 8 weeks.
She also didn't STTN until we sleep trained (out of desperation) around 1 year. I have a hard time reading posts from people that were blessed with great sleepers, since DD was a nightmare for sleeping for a long time. Trying to force a schedule onto a kid that goes against their needs doesn't seem like a great idea, especially at that age.
It sounds like your baby is sleeping really well. I would thank your lucky stars and feed her when she's hungry. Yes she might want to use a bottle for comfort. She is brand new. That's to be expected. Refusing to feed her because it's not convenient for you is ... not my style, to say the least.
Maybe I'm just oversensitive tonight or had a glass of wine too many but it's got my hackles up that one night wake up isn't good enough. DS woke up 5 times last night and was up for the day at 5:15 am. Fuck man.
Maybe I'm just oversensitive tonight or had a glass of wine too many but it's got my hackles up that one night wake up isn't good enough. DS woke up 5 times last night and was up for the day at 5:15 am. Fuck man.
My 2.5 yr old has been getting up 3 times a night. Wth, dude. We have sleep trained this kid I swear not a magic cure!
I get it. I really do. DS1 was the worst colicky mess. some people here truly know how bad real colic is (@starry, @this, sorry i can't remember more). We understand what you're going through. On the other hand, colicky babies do.not.respond to any of these "parenting" methods. And in the end, it will make you more stressed, more resentful, more tired, more *everything* because it enhances every single feeling you have. Which is why I said "lower your expectations" because once you do and you get to the point of "do what I have to do, to get through the day and end with a happier baby" things become easier.
Yes 1000% this. Any kind of "training" did not work for my colicky, strong-willed baby. I tried everything to make my life easier and became kind of obsessive about finding "the cure" for sleep and fussiness. What helped me was knowing I wasn't the only one with a fussy baby, that it wasn't anything I was doing wrong, and that it wasn't a reflection on my parenting because DS didn't sleep/soothe/ etc easily. Hang in there- all babies are different and there is no perfect book.
I'll just say that it's a pretty extreme expectation that the vast majority of us didn't find to be possible. The reason the book doesn't make sense to you... is that it doesn't make sense for most babies.
I don't know anything about the behaviour of a FF baby. All I know is that I'm only cutting my baby's night feed now. At 15 months. Which is sooner than I did it with DS.
Well, that is what I was wondering.
I feel she has no routine right now and always had a bottle in her mouth, but that may be normal. But I'm not sure. When I checked out the book I saw someone recommended I thought maybe this might be a good thing to work towards but that is why I asked.
If this is a really extreme and out of reach expectation then I would like to know before I start trying. I do feel, however, that she uses the bottle to soothe rather than feed at the moment, but I'll ask her pedi when we go next week.
I think it's pretty extreme. Babies eat because they are hungry, they aren't doing it to manipulate you. My kids didn't sleep through without needing to eat at night until They were 15ish months.
Post by catwithspots on Nov 27, 2014 23:43:30 GMT -5
I did with my first. I was not super strict about exact times (exact 4 hours by x time) and I let my dd guide when to stretch longer cycles. She was 10 hours by 4 months. By 6 months 12 hours.
With my second I did not follow the same method. At 13 months he still wakes 1-2 times per night! With my first I only had 8 weeks of maternity and I wanted to set solid routines because she would be in homecare. I wanted to enjoy the second baby/leave and did not want to be so rigid. Sometimes I wish I would have done the same with both!
DD is almost 1 and I am still waiting for her to fall into a schedule and STTN. Don't get me wrong, she's experimented with both schedules and STTN but refuses to do either with any sort of predictability. The ONLY thing she has done consistently since she was tiny is fall back asleep quickly after an MOTN feed. We consider ourselves lucky.
Post by andthentherewere10 on Nov 28, 2014 0:29:32 GMT -5
The first year is hard. Stop reading books and just take care of her. When you go back to work it is all going to change anyway. It is smart of you to ask for perspectives of others who have been through this...but remember, book authors want to sell books so they paint an idealized picture of what's possible to sell them.
She is a baby. She needs her mom. All the time. That's not a problem. Adjust your views of what your role should be like and I think you will find you are happier. Americans expect unrealistic things of infants. I always think back to our primate heritage. Do apes put their baby on a schedule? PUT baby alone in a separate nest? Deny them food when they seem hungry? Trust your child. She will have growth spurts and lulls in her hunger that you can't perceive if you are constricted by a schedule.