Greece is thisclose to leaving the Euro

[Deleted]

You know what I don't understand? Why republicans are always so happy about this. Every time there is anything about Europe going tits up, its always full of republicans that seem almost gleeful about it. I don't get it.

I also don't understand why the entire discussion ignores the fact that it was the banks that started the problems (see this thread for details) - specifically the US banks doing dodgy trading deals on phony mortgages. The European banks got in on it - they have their faults and share the guilt. As does the late retirement age and any other thing you wish to throw in there about Europe. But it was all fine - or at least, not a total disaster - until the banks fucked everything.

To make out that "Europe is going to fail because of its social support system" - which seems to be the driving force even if its not spoken - is just misguided. This system was working okay for many of the countries until the banks decided to fuck about. If there is blame, then it actually lies with capitalism IMO.

Oh! I answered my own question! Reps are happy that Europe is having trouble because it proves that social networks to to take care of the elderly and those that cant find work are bad things.

ETA I realize Greece is its own worst enemy and shouldn't have been allowed in the EU. And that for Greece, there would have been problems eventually anyway. Most of this post is more generally about Europe. But again, even with Greece, these problems only became massive at this point once the banks did their fuckery.

[MrsAxilla]

May 16, 2012 6:33:31 GMT -5 @septimus said:

I'm thankful I convinced DH to go to Morocco over Greece for our family vacation

Actually, Erin Burnett on CNN said Greece needs the money and most resorts are offering half off amazing rooms to draw tourists. She also suggested we all buy Greek olive oil, which I thought was funny.

[Deleted]

IIOY-David Cameron said the morning that the EU has to do everything to keep greece in the EU and Merkel is getting softer about possibly a Greek Stimulus package.

[MrsAxilla]

May 17, 2012 8:35:36 GMT -5 @reeve said:

You know what I don't understand? Why republicans are always so happy about this. Every time there is any post about Europe going tits up, its always full of republicans that seem almost gleeful about it. I don't get it.

I also don't understand why the entire discussion ignores the fact that it was the banks that started the problems (see this thread for details) - specifically the US banks doing dodgy trading deals on phony mortgages. The European banks got in on it - they have their faults and share the guilt. As does the late retirement age and any other thing you wish to throw in there about Europe. But it was all fine - or at least, not a total disaster - until the banks fucked everything.

To make out that "Europe is going to fail because of its social support system" - which seems to be the driving force even if its not spoken - is just misguided. This system was working okay for many of the countries until the banks decided to fuck about. If there is blame, then it actually lies with capitalism IMO.

Oh! I answered my own question! Reps are happy that Europe is having trouble because it proves that social networks to to take care of the elderly and those that cant find work are bad things.

CNN said tax evasion is a HUGE part of the problem - and not just rich people avoiding taxes, but regular middle class folks, too.

[IIOY]

Wait - who is happy about this? I'm actual quite cynical and disappointed about the entire situation, and my snark is actually a mockery of myself since I have the deserved reputation around these parts as the messenger of bad news. Remember my "bear of the day" threads? It's a running joke and I've been just as snarky about US problems. I'm also one of those strongest proponents on here for bank reform.

Moreover, any supposed "glee" comes from my relief that we have a thread that is of great interest to me and in which I can actively participate as a result. I'm usually on the go and by the time I catch up on the few threads of interest, they've been hashed, rehashed, and hashed again. The Europe threads often are slower so I stand a chance of participating.

Of course the banks played a huge role here, as did bad government decision-making. I feel as though we've been over this many times over the past four years. Hell, Goldman Sachs helped Greece cover up its problems so as to gain access to the Euro. It's beyond the pale, to say the least.

The issue now is what to do to go about fixing things, and on that point, the entrenched social welfare system and political cronyism is a massive barrier. And sorry, but when Nazis are being elected, appalled mockery is warranted.

And if you weren't referring to me, reeve, ignore all of the above. :-)

[marie427]

May 16, 2012 16:47:15 GMT -5 emisi said:

Greece is a mess. The majority of the country dodges their taxes, retires ridiculously early, takes leads of vacation time, lied to get in the EU... they're pretty much just reaping what they sowed and are pissed about it. To bad they'll drag so many others down with them

But it's all those Albanian immigrants' fault!!!

[IIOY]

May 17, 2012 9:13:57 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Yeah, I don't think the social welfare is the problem - Germany has that and is doing fine. As is Scandinavia. Greece's problems are so far beyond that, and I think anyone focusing on that is doing so for political points. Massive amounts of tax evasion, corruption, inflexible labor force, low retirement age, a relatively unproductive workforce... they just didn't have the revenue to support all of this, nor the political willpower to change any of it.

See, right here we have a communication problem. When I refer to "social welfare" in the context of Greece, I'm not referring to, say, welfare for the needy, which is justifiable and, to the best of my knowledge, not a primary factor in Greece's problems.

I'm referring more to things such as tax evasion, the low retirement age, labor rules that favor employees to an extreme, etc., all of which are accepted by the government with a nudge and a wink if not explicitly, and which I therefore view as an indirect safety net and form of social welfare.

sept - I wouldn't at all be surprised if Greece is thrown a lifeline. The prospect of it leaving the Euro is a scary one for the rest of Europe (and, to a lesser extent, the States and elsewhere). From all that I've read, it seems the least messy path may have been for Greece to default a while ago while maintaining membership in the Euro. My recollection is that default = expulsion, so I can understand why other nations balked at the time. Unfortunately, the Powers That be took only half measures and now everyone is worse for the wear.

[Deleted]

Sorry IIOY, my post did seem to be pointing at the members of this board - I wrote it that way. My bad, Im gonna edit and correct. I meant in general.
And as I said - Greece is a poor example because that country has been making a balls of it anyway.

[IIOY]

May 17, 2012 9:36:34 GMT -5 @reeve said:

Sorry IIOY, my post did seem to be pointing at the members of this board - I wrote it that way. My bad, Im gonna edit and correct. I meant in general.
And as I said - Greece is a poor example because that country has been making a balls of it anyway.

It's all good.

And to be clear, I don't mind discussing/debating my opinion, but I do want to make sure my opinion is understood. To the extent that it is not, I take responsibility for not being clear.

Finally, I have an extremely dark sense of humor and am the proverbial funeral-giggler, which is why I am so snarky and crotchety around here. I hope no one here ever takes my jokes about serious situations as an indication of my real feelings.

[IIOY]

May 17, 2012 9:54:22 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Sorry, IIOY. I wasn't directing the social welfare stuff specifically at you. I read Reeve's comments as being Republicans on TV and elected ones, where social welfare is the more obvious stuff (pensions, healthcare, subsidized schooling, etc. - the stuff they talk about when they are like, "oh no - we don't want to be socialist like Europe - look at Greece!) and that is what I was referring to.

The things you're talking about, I wouldn't categorize as social welfare - but whatever we call them, I agree they are a problem and wouldn't want that stuff implemented in the US. I'm all for increasing the retirement age (at least for certain job categories, which is another issue, I know), increasing tax revenue, a flexible job market, etc.

LOL, I'm looking all kinds of defensive here, but yeah, I actually didn't think you were talking directly to me but for some reason decided to respond as if you were. Like I said above, I just want to make sure my position is clear, and I am probably muddying the waters by using a characterization such as "social welfare," which has another, more common meaning. Nevertheless, I do think of those things as social welfare for the reason I mentioned above.

Also, back to the subject of suddenly printing a shitload of drachmas - I've read an awful lot about Greece and its problems, and while this issue has been raised as a sort of "by the way" matter, I don't recall actually seeing the logistics discussed, and I think it's because no one, or at least none of the folks I tend to read, actually thought it would come to that. Given that Cameraon and Merkel are now talking up keeping Greece in the union, it sounds as though it still isn't expected to come to that.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 9:42:30 GMT -5 IIOY said:

May 17, 2012 9:36:34 GMT -5 @reeve said:

Sorry IIOY, my post did seem to be pointing at the members of this board - I wrote it that way. My bad, Im gonna edit and correct. I meant in general.
And as I said - Greece is a poor example because that country has been making a balls of it anyway.

It's all good.

And to be clear, I don't mind discussing/debating my opinion, but I do want to make sure my opinion is understood. To the extent that it is not, I take responsibility for not being clear.

Finally, I have an extremely dark sense of humor and am the proverbial funeral-giggler, which is why I am so snarky and crotchety around here. I hope no one here ever takes my jokes about serious situations as an indication of my real feelings.

It occurs to me that I have been misjudging you for years lol.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 9:30:44 GMT -5 marie427 said:

May 16, 2012 16:47:15 GMT -5 emisi said:

Greece is a mess. The majority of the country dodges their taxes, retires ridiculously early, takes leads of vacation time, lied to get in the EU... they're pretty much just reaping what they sowed and are pissed about it. To bad they'll drag so many others down with them

But it's all those Albanian immigrants' fault!!!

Damn skippy it is!

[ChiGuest]

May 17, 2012 8:21:31 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

May 17, 2012 7:37:16 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

The Greeks aren't the only complete mess in the EU there are plenty of folks dragging it down. That said, my H's family is LOLing at this whole thing.

He's a Turk, right? I'm sure many of them are loving this. They're also probably going to get additional tourism money this summer, too.

Turkey is probably so happy they didn't join the Euro club.

Weren't they *still* trying to get in the last 12 months? I swear I read that somewhere... I believe Croatia as well...

[ChiGuest]

May 17, 2012 9:30:44 GMT -5 marie427 said:

May 16, 2012 16:47:15 GMT -5 emisi said:

Greece is a mess. The majority of the country dodges their taxes, retires ridiculously early, takes leads of vacation time, lied to get in the EU... they're pretty much just reaping what they sowed and are pissed about it. To bad they'll drag so many others down with them

But it's all those Albanian immigrants' fault!!!

Okay so this is the 3rd time I'm seeing this joke. I don't doubt that someone could have said this, but I have NEVER read where people in Greece are saying *THIS* is the problem. Was it just one random political person?

I mean...is it like saying one nut job from the tea party = the voice of America? KWIM?

Link?

[Deleted]

May 16, 2012 6:36:31 GMT -5 marie427 said:

Also, are they once again using their Albanian immigrants as scapegoats for this mess?

the damn albanians!!!! You guys are nothing but trouble

[IIOY]

May 17, 2012 11:12:27 GMT -5 @reeve said:

May 17, 2012 9:42:30 GMT -5 IIOY said:

It's all good.

And to be clear, I don't mind discussing/debating my opinion, but I do want to make sure my opinion is understood. To the extent that it is not, I take responsibility for not being clear.

Finally, I have an extremely dark sense of humor and am the proverbial funeral-giggler, which is why I am so snarky and crotchety around here. I hope no one here ever takes my jokes about serious situations as an indication of my real feelings.

It occurs to me that I have been misjudging you for years lol.

Wait - seriously?

Goodness, I wonder how many other people don't realize I'm being facetious about 90% of the time. Now I feel like I need to change my SN to I_am_just_kidding.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 12:43:04 GMT -5 IIOY said:

May 17, 2012 11:12:27 GMT -5 @reeve said:

It occurs to me that I have been misjudging you for years lol.

Wait - seriously?

Goodness, I wonder how many other people don't realize I'm being facetious about 90% of the time. Now I feel like I need to change my SN to I_am_just_kidding.

Its probably just me - I have a reputation with my friends for not grasping the obvious. Like, I played Super Street Fighter for years, then one day blurted out "Oh! KO stands for Knock Out", very pleased with myself for comprehending this VERY OBVIOUS thing. I still get flack for it lol.