started buying organic food. observation.

[drrn04]

So I've read before sometimes where people are all "it isn't really that much more expensive to buy organic, blah blah blah."

They're lying liars.

I just spent over $200 at the grocery and I only bought meat for 2 meals, and maybe 5 days worth of meal stuff. The store I went to was $$ because organic selection at my Kroger or Meijer looks pathetic (sad little grapes on brown stems, tiny heads of lettuce for $5, etc). So yeah, the food at this store is freaking fantastic, but it costs and arm and a leg.

I'm just doing dirty dozen produce, organic eggs and milk, and grass fed hormone free meats. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but crap, this stuff's expensive.

[rodeored]

No your right, it is expensive. I couldn't believe how much more I spent on food when I went gluten free (which of course is usually organic and all that jazz). People talk about having fun money that they budget for. I have special food budget :N: .

[pantsparty]

I don't buy organic because I am dubious. But also I've read what hoobs and such say about the production - sometimes it's worse on the land and the animal. Which sort of defeats the purpose.

Also, I'm cheap. Safeway brand ALLLL THE WAAAAAAAY!

[horseoutside]

Aug 3, 2012 21:51:59 GMT -5 pantsparty said:

I don't buy organic because I am dubious. But also I've read what hoobs and such say about the production - sometimes it's worse on the land and the animal. Which sort of defeats the purpose.

Also, I'm cheap. Safeway brand ALLLL THE WAAAAAAAY!

Huh? What is the rational about it being worse on the land and the animal?

OP - yep, it's more expensive but the quality is so much better I think it's worth it. Do you have farms or farmer's markets nearby. They are usually cheaper than fancy, "organic" stores.

[hubes]

:: sitting on my hands::

[drrn04]

We do have farmer's markets, but I have never been all that impressed with what I get there. IMO, while completely delicious, it never lasts as long as what I buy in the store. And I often can't get to them during their specified times due to whatever crap my kids have going on. I'm big on convenience, and apparently, I'm going to pay heavily for that.

[drrn04]

hoobs: you can go ahead and school me. Truly. I'm not doing it for Mother Earth, or the humaneness of animal treatment (although I'd be thrilled if that were part of the deal). I'm doing it because of the hormones, and pesticides.

So if there's something I should know, by all means, let me know!

[horseoutside]

Aug 3, 2012 22:04:26 GMT -5 hubes said:

:: sitting on my hands::

Go for it! H and I are not quite organic veggie farmers (meaning we don't really produce enough to be profitable) but I'd love to hear your side of it. I also grew up spending 4 months a year on a pastured dairy farm and I love any discussion on agriculture.

[eb777888]

We get our meat from Sprouts, which is a Farmer's Market and while their specialty products are really high, their meat is actually really reasonable.

We do Costco for organic eggs, chicken and most produce. I also follow the dirty dozen.

[hubes]

Eh, there's nothing "wrong" with this post, I'm just kidding, because the last organic post, I came on a little... um, strong.

My anecdotal evidence for the night is that my cute little red calf (that I've posted here, with T) would be dead if it we were organic. She had pretty of clean, dry space, nutritious food, we did everything right, but when it was 100+ degrees she got stressed, and she got sick. Had we not been able to give her medication, she would have died from diarrhea. To me, that is not humane. That's my number one issue with organic.

[horseoutside]

Aug 3, 2012 22:14:39 GMT -5 hubes said:

Eh, there's nothing "wrong" with this post, I'm just kidding, because the last organic post, I came on a little... um, strong.

My anecdotal evidence for the night is that my cute little red calf (that I've posted here, with T) would be dead if it we were organic. She had pretty of clean, dry space, nutritious food, we did everything right, but when it was 100+ degrees she got stressed, and she got sick. Had we not been able to give her medication, she would have died from diarrhea. To me, that is not humane. That's my number one issue with organic.

But organically raised livestock are not prohibited from receiving conventional treatment in cases where it's necessary! That is both unethical and illegal. An animal that receives conventional treatment may not be able to be classified as organic for sale, but they're not not treated for disease or illness to maintain organic standards.

Organic farmers use the preventative benefits of organic methods (ie pasture raising, no routine use of hormones/antibiotics) to decrease the likelihood of disease occurring, but they don't let animals die for lack of treatment if organic methods fail and the animal becomes ill.

[hubes]

Aug 3, 2012 22:27:35 GMT -5 horseoutside said:

Aug 3, 2012 22:14:39 GMT -5 hubes said:

Eh, there's nothing "wrong" with this post, I'm just kidding, because the last organic post, I came on a little... um, strong.

My anecdotal evidence for the night is that my cute little red calf (that I've posted here, with T) would be dead if it we were organic. She had pretty of clean, dry space, nutritious food, we did everything right, but when it was 100+ degrees she got stressed, and she got sick. Had we not been able to give her medication, she would have died from diarrhea. To me, that is not humane. That's my number one issue with organic.

But organically raised livestock are not prohibited from receiving conventional treatment in cases where it's necessary! That is both unethical and illegal. An animal that receives conventional treatment may not be able to be classified as organic for sale, but they're not not treated for disease or illness to maintain organic standards.

Organic farmers use the preventative benefits of organic methods (ie pasture raising, no routine use of hormones/antibiotics) to decrease the likelihood of disease occurring, but they don't let animals die for lack of treatment if organic methods fail and the animal becomes ill.

Really? That's not what my experience has been. I wish I had the article of the high-profile organic beef farmer who stated that not being able to treat sick animals was part of the price of organic farming.

And conventional farmers use preventive measures too- all of our cows/calves are on grass right now- and there are things that you truly can't prevent, no matter how hard you try- as was the case with my red calf.

Well, whatever, different strokes for different folks. If people want to spend their money on a label that makes them feel better, go for it.

I'm a conventional farmer, and I can tell you that the food produced on my farm is just as good as the food produced on an organic farm.

And I really hope I'm not sounding like a jack ass this time

[pantsparty]

Aug 3, 2012 22:00:36 GMT -5 horseoutside said:

Aug 3, 2012 21:51:59 GMT -5 pantsparty said:

I don't buy organic because I am dubious. But also I've read what hoobs and such say about the production - sometimes it's worse on the land and the animal. Which sort of defeats the purpose.

Also, I'm cheap. Safeway brand ALLLL THE WAAAAAAAY!

Huh? What is the rational about it being worse on the land and the animal?

OP - yep, it's more expensive but the quality is so much better I think it's worth it. Do you have farms or farmer's markets nearby. They are usually cheaper than fancy, "organic" stores.

Have you not heard of this? I don't have extensive knowledge, but there are farmers that are crueler to animals and worse to the land to get the "organic" label. Organic may mean some type of food labeling standard, but there are no standards for animal care or land preservation, which should be considered. , Farmer's markets are probably better, but I don't really know.

[horseoutside]

I think your first example about the farmer who said that about organic practices is anecdotal evidence of one of those loons (high profile or not) who take things too far. Those people exist in every walk of life, but they certainly don't represent the majority. All the organic farmers I know would never behave unethically like that. I think the organic tag can be such a hot button issue.

Here's a link to some info re: true (ethical!) organic procedures: www.ifoam.org/growing_organic/1_arguments_for_oa/criticisms_misconceptions/misconceptions_no24.html

I'm happy eating any pasture raise animal. My beef (lol) is with containment facilities/factory farms. They gross me out so much.

In my dream world, I would own a gorgeous dairy herd and be a real farmer but I'm not quite brave or educated enough to make that leap yet.

Thanks for discussing this with me! Agriculture/food is my favorite topic

[hubes]

Eh. Grew up in a place where the organic movement really took root. I don't want to argue about it, but the time I've spent of those farms...

I'd also like to dairy someday, and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. But I can guarantee that my herd of conventional dairy cows will be just as gorgeous/healthy/produce great and healthy milk as your organic ones!

We have a lot in common- I'm all about agriculture and food.

[mamasaurus]

IME, it depends where you shop. Organic at TJs is usually cheaper than at WF, for example, but you have far less selection. Farmer's markets often have the same things at different prices, so you can comparison shop, but they don't sell exotics or produce out of season, so you maybe can't get all the produce you want. I sometimes end up paying less for it than I would for conventional, but only if I spend a bit of time on shopping, and never in the winter.

[alleycat]

I can assure you hoobs I do not spend extra money on a label just because it makes me feel better, lol. I do it for the health benefits.

Dotandbuzz, I keep my bill down by not buying everything organic. Just meat and fruits and veggies. I stick to what is on sale for that week and then build my meals around it. Have you tried a meal planning site?

[hey]

Do the stores you go to have any organic things on clearance? I went to heb yesterday and bought packages of organic chicken for $1.50. They were originally 10 dollars a package. I had it last night...very good!

[gretchenindisguise]

I love Sprouts and I'm so happy we have it, nothing like it existed back in our old town. I've also stopped buying organic milk. I'll be honest, it was hoobs posts about it that made me realize all milk is rgbst free these days. Also our grocer has milk from the only local dairy. It's cheaper and local = win in my book.

[hubes]

Gretchen- local dairy milk is awesome!

I want a bottling company someday!

[Deleted]

Is this where I share my anecdotes of the hipsters at my farmer's market who pooh pooh the non-organic farm stands?

[cahabalily]

I'll weigh in as a plant scientist. Some of the most dangerous substanches known are organic- ricin, mustard gas, botulis. And a very common organic pesticide, nicotine, effects mammals as well as insects. I'd much prefer a synthetic that won't affect my nervous system vs an organic that will.

Also, lots of organic farmers don't know what they're doing and don't have their fertilizers tested, so they end up applying e.coli and salmonella to the produce and fields.

I eat my organic and mine only. I don't trust an industry that isn't yet regulated enough to prevent e.coli from being spread onto fields, and the organic farming industry is still too grass roots to do so.

So hoobs,, I'll sit on your couch.

[loveday]

Local dairies are great, just do your due diligence on where you buy from. Our local farm was shut down because of a listeria outbreak. It was terribly sad.

I love organic for most things, it is as you say pricey though. Ugh. I want to do a whole farm CSA, there is a place about an hour from here that does one for $5K a year. It includes all organic produce, grass fed meats, cheeses, raw milk and a few preserves here and there.

[horseoutside]

Aug 4, 2012 8:40:17 GMT -5 hubes said:

Eh. Grew up in a place where the organic movement really took root. I don't want to argue about it, but the time I've spent of those farms...

I'd also like to dairy someday, and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. But I can guarantee that my herd of conventional dairy cows will be just as gorgeous/healthy/produce great and healthy milk as your organic ones!

We have a lot in common- I'm all about agriculture and food.

Hoobs, I don't want to misrepresent myself here and apologies if I come off too strong. It's my feiry Irish temperament

As I touched on in my last post, "certified organic" is not as important to me as pasture raised/grass fed/not pumped full of hormones and antibiotics.

I don't really want to argue about it either, but an anecdotal tale about one high profile organic farmer who lets his animals die to maintain organic standards and the suggestion that people are more interested in an organic label than a quality product are fairly weak arguments in the face of growing imperial evidence and strong factual based analysis that eating food that has been produced without unnecessary use of antibiotics and hormones, etc. is better for people's health. (Whoa, run on sentence!) I'd love to see some facts from reputable sources on how you guarantee that conventionally raised beef is as gorgeous/healthy/produce just as healthy milk etc. I am truly interested in reading more on this if you can offer resources.

I can't speak to the practices at your farm because I do not know what methods you employ and I'm sure you have a beautiful herd. As a matter of general organic vs conventional though, if a cattle farm employs the following methods: forced weaning and containment facilities for calves over 4/5 months old, and/or routine use of antibiotics and hormones , and/or a heavily grain based diet, then they are absolutely not producing as high quality or healthy a product as a farm where calves are pasture raised from birth to slaughter, naturally weaned from their mothers when a new calf arrives, not routinely treated with antibiotics and hormones and grass/hay fed.

That's not to say that a big, juicy, three week aged, grain fed steak is not delicious. It is! But it's still not as high quality or healthy a product as a big, juicy, three week aged, grass fed, pasture raised, hormone free steak.

I'm sorry, I have written a novel! I could truly talk about this topic forever. I think food and it's production (and the way it contributes to the obesity epidemic) is the single biggest problem this nation faces.

[onesweetworld]

Instead of going 100% organic I try to focus more on buying local from with farmers markets or local farm stores. I buy my beef and eggs from local organic farms. They truly taste so much better too. It is expensive too. For 1lb of beef at the regular tore it is about 4$/lb te farm stuff is 8$/lb sometimes more.

[drrn04]

well eff. Now I'm all confused.

The place I'm going is a local grocer, and gets as much as they can locally. Being in Michigan, there is a pretty large base of farms around me, and they tell what product is from what farm. But I'm not going to lie, I have no intentions of investigating each and every one of their suppliers to "check them out," and make sure they're up to snuff, because 1) I don't have that kind of time, and 2) I don't even know what I'd be checking for. The grocer tells what is grass fed, what is organic, what was shipped in from California, etc. They're a small hippie-dippie store with absolutely incredible food (HUGE hot food bar, made to order pizzas, indian food, etc), killer wine selection and cellar, so I'm going to just trust that they're not selling me stuff laced with ricin or E.coli.

I think I'll just take my cost-too-much groceries, sit over here, and be quiet now. *bites into a $3 peach*

[edithbouvierbeale]

I think it's scientologist farmers that don't treat sick animals. scientology beef is $$$ for the risk.

but I think organic farmers are allowed to TREAT illness in their animals, just not pump them full of precautionary medications with no signs of sickness right?

[eddy]

It works for us when we do a CSA in the summer. Tons of great fresh produce and pretty comparable to normal produce at the grocery store. Otherwise on the off season I normally just buy the regular kind.

[hubes]

Aug 4, 2012 13:46:08 GMT -5 edithbouvierbeale said:

I think it's scientologist farmers that don't treat sick animals. scientology beef is $$$ for the risk.

but I think organic farmers are allowed to TREAT illness in their animals, just not pump them full of precautionary medications with no signs of sickness right?

If they treat them, they aren't organic anymore.

[gretchenindisguise]

It's Hollandia Dairy. I just did a quick google search and it seemed ok. Anyone here know differently or have other places to check?