What Anti-Vaxxers Are Saying About The Outbreak

[terpsfan]

Feb 4, 2015 10:14:05 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

You know, I get the fear, I really do. Between the fake study that came out about vaccines and autism that was later debunked, being told to worry about pink slime in your beef, hormones in your cows, antibiotics used on farm animals at abnormally high rates, medicines on the market that turn out have horrible side effects (looking at you Yaz/Yazmin), there's a lot of "establishment" that feels scary and as if it doesn't have the consumers best interest at heart. Couple that with a very low understanding of basic science in this country, a limited understanding of what goes into making a vaccine, I understand the distrust. I don't think it means that these people are stupid, I think that they just literally don't know what sources of information they can trust, and it's a lot easier to believe another company is out to scam you because you don't want to be one of those blind trusting fools. I don't think this should mean that we give these people a pass to do as they please to the detriment of others though, but we've created an atmosphere of disregarding scientific claims and supporting corporations over people. This is the end result.

I agree with this too. Speaking just for myself, the environment around all of this 8 years ago when I had a newborn was all omg BPA, Omg crappy J&J baby shampoo, omg chemicals in diapers, etc etc... We were bombarded with all this shit can harm your kid!!!!11111!!! Add in the vaccine causes autism discussion (which had not totally widespread been debunked publicly as it's been in the past few years) and you have parents not confident in any decision they were making. At least from my perspective, vaccinations felt like a big leap from a cliff into an unknown. Which I did... And I am furious at others who didn't. Just giving my two cents on the how are we here today

[btdt]

Maybe this is an indication of how anti-social I am, or how I surround myself with like-minded individuals, but I don't know a single person who is anti-vax. Even the lady who keeps chickens in her yard (except when it is REALLY cold, then she brings them into her basement) has vaccinated all of her children.

[dawnzersong]

Feb 4, 2015 10:46:40 GMT -5 robinsbff said:

i've spent some time on a board like that (lurking, not participating) and it's truly scary the "logic" that they use to justify their thinking. they rally against people who are "sheep blindly following their doctor's orders" yet they get their advice/do their 'research' by asking randoms on a message board. as much as i love the internet i also hate that the internet has given these people a way to find each and continually reinforce their stupid decisions.

This is what is most baffling to me: they look at all of these statistics and see a million dubious correlations but they completely ignore that the overwhelming majority of people are vaccinated, and the overwhelming majority of vaccinated people do not fall on the autism spectrum.

[heyjude]

The vaccine skeptics in my life have doubled down. There is no hope. If a measles outbreak doesn't do anything to change their mind, nothing will.

Also I think I've lost my BFF. We've had words that can't be taken back over this.

Could you be friends with someone who thinks like the people in the OP? Because I'm struggling.

[laurenpetro]

can someone explain "virus shedding" to me? i'd google but i'm askerrd of what i'll pull up on crazymom.com

[wawa]

Feb 4, 2015 12:30:29 GMT -5 heyjude said:

The vaccine skeptics in my life have doubled down. There is no hope. If a measles outbreak doesn't do anything to change their mind, nothing will.

Also I think I've lost my BFF. We've had words that can't be taken back over this.

Could you be friends with someone who thinks like the people in the OP? Because I'm struggling.

well...I wouldn't want them around my kid.  So no.

[shauni27]

Feb 4, 2015 12:23:22 GMT -5 btdt said:

Maybe this is an indication of how anti-social I am, or how I surround myself with like-minded individuals, but I don't know a single person who is anti-vax. Even the lady who keeps chickens in her yard (except when it is REALLY cold, then she brings them into her basement) has vaccinated all of her children.

I felt this way too, until a friend of mine posted something anti-vax today and there are 84 comments under it, 80 of which agree with her.  scary.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Feb 4, 2015 9:47:52 GMT -5 ESF said:

First, we need to stop acting like these people are rational actors, and start treating these people like they are brainwashed members of a dangerous cult.

Second, where are the fathers? Why is this a mommy issue? Are the fathers brainwashed, or do they not give a shit?

I have thoughts on this. My DH is very pro-vax, but he's only been to 2 of her pedi appointments. Mostly because my schedule is more flexible. He wants to, but its often not feasible. The anti-vaxxers I know are all sahm with husbands who work crazy long hours. I wouldn't be surprised if they really didn't know what's going on in the vaccine department.

[MrsAxilla]

Feb 4, 2015 12:36:45 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

can someone explain "virus shedding" to me? i'd google but i'm askerrd of what i'll pull up on crazymom.com

It's the false belief that vaccines are live, so people who recently had one are contagious.  Which makes NO SENSE, or else we'd be seeing outbreaks all.the.time.  

[MrsAxilla]

Feb 4, 2015 12:30:29 GMT -5 heyjude said:

The vaccine skeptics in my life have doubled down. There is no hope. If a measles outbreak doesn't do anything to change their mind, nothing will.

Also I think I've lost my BFF. We've had words that can't be taken back over this.

Could you be friends with someone who thinks like the people in the OP? Because I'm struggling.

I dropped a friend who was antivaxx, but she was a new friend so it was no great loss.

[ESF]

Feb 4, 2015 13:00:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Feb 4, 2015 9:47:52 GMT -5 ESF said:

First, we need to stop acting like these people are rational actors, and start treating these people like they are brainwashed members of a dangerous cult.

Second, where are the fathers? Why is this a mommy issue? Are the fathers brainwashed, or do they not give a shit?

I have thoughts on this. My DH is very pro-vax, but he's only been to 2 of her pedi appointments. Mostly because my schedule is more flexible. He wants to, but its often not feasible. The anti-vaxxers I know are all sahm with husbands who work crazy long hours. I wouldn't be surprised if they really didn't know what's going on in the vaccine department.

This is my assumption too.

Really, more pressure needs to be put on these fathers.  We need to start holding their feet to the fire. Their wives have essentially joined a cult, and are putting their kids at serious risk as a result.   They do not get to say, "Well, I was at work, I had no idea."  

[msmerymac]

Feb 4, 2015 7:52:34 GMT -5 josieposy said:

What still trips me out is that a lot of these parents were vaccinated as kids. I have yet to hear one of them say that THEY PERSONALLY experienced any severe medical side effects.

Apparently if I never got an MMR vaccine (let alone two!) I'd be a fucking genius. Clearly, if I don't vax, my kids are heading to Harvard because they won't have any brain damage. Or something.

[Velar Fricative]

Feb 4, 2015 12:23:22 GMT -5 btdt said:

Maybe this is an indication of how anti-social I am, or how I surround myself with like-minded individuals, but I don't know a single person who is anti-vax. Even the lady who keeps chickens in her yard (except when it is REALLY cold, then she brings them into her basement) has vaccinated all of her children.

Same here. It does help that we have a public school system that doesn't play bullshit games with "philosophical objections" to vaccines. Not immunocompromised? Get your vaccines or homeschool your kid. (I think even most of the private schools here require vaccinations similar to the public schools.)

[MrsAxilla]

Feb 4, 2015 13:11:57 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Feb 4, 2015 7:52:34 GMT -5 josieposy said:

What still trips me out is that a lot of these parents were vaccinated as kids. I have yet to hear one of them say that THEY PERSONALLY experienced any severe medical side effects.

Apparently if I never got an MMR vaccine (let alone two!) I'd be a fucking genius. Clearly, if I don't vax, my kids are heading to Harvard because they won't have any brain damage. Or something.

See, my kid had all his and he's a freaking genius, so clearly vaccines make you smarter.

[mrspez07]

It hadn't been that long ago that those posts could have come from a topic on the Nest or Bump. These ideas and like-minded support were around in the very community we here at GBCN evolved from. I see a reflection of 5-6 years ago in those comments.

[btdt]

Feb 4, 2015 12:36:45 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

can someone explain "virus shedding" to me? i'd google but i'm askerrd of what i'll pull up on crazymom.com

pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/live-vaccines.htm

When my older daughter was young, the US still gave a combination of OPV and IPV for polio. Because I was taking immunosuppressing drugs at the time, her pediatrician had a long, in-depth conversation with me about possibly delaying the OPV until I was no longer under treatment, because of the slim possibility of virus shedding. In the end, we decided to go ahead with my daughter's vaccines, on schedule. 

That's my anecdote for the day.

[2doxies]

The only anti-vax people I know are far left and far right (libertarian right, not fundamental-religious right). They're both so far to their respective sides that they almost come full-circle and meet. It's a weird overlap. They both think that the pro-vax side is all about money at it's core and the more you argue with facts ("facts") the more you are a tool of big pharma. I'm at a loss at this point.

[biscoffcookies]

I had to scroll past half those quotes from anti-vaxxers because I exceeded my tolerance level for stupid and ridiculous.

I also don't get how you could be "not afraid of measles" after you learn about measles encephalitis and how even today there's nothing we can do about it. Maybe that particular complication is the exception rather than the rule, but the fact your kid might die from measles if he contracts it doesn't scare you?

[KB]

Feb 4, 2015 9:30:02 GMT -5 origami said:

Courtesy of an anti-vaxer friend on FB yesterday: "God gave us a immune system and we do not need the government to protect us, 1 in 50 kids have autism! I think if you really did your research you would be shocked at the statistics! God gave us the natural abilities to fight theses diseases, and btw not 1 person has died from the measles!"

Also, "It's definitely important to thoroughly research both sides, because there is A LOT of biased information out there. Bottom line is that every parent should have the right to decide whether or not they want to vaccinate. Once big brother starts getting involved, then the next thing you know we'll be required to get micro-chipped, etc." followed by what she apparently thinks is unbiased research: holisticblends.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/measles-the-facts-vs-the-hype/

Oh and illegal immigrants are the cause of these outbreaks.

I would love it if the fucking anti-vaxxers could please stop making my kid the cautionary tale in their quest. Guess what? He had autism before he was vaxxed and he will have it after. He will continue to be vaccinated on time/schedule per his pediatrician and the CDC's recommendations. He is not less than for having ASD, goddammit. This makes me rage like no other. 

[thecatinthehat]

Feb 4, 2015 12:30:29 GMT -5 heyjude said:

The vaccine skeptics in my life have doubled down. There is no hope. If a measles outbreak doesn't do anything to change their mind, nothing will.

Also I think I've lost my BFF. We've had words that can't be taken back over this.

Could you be friends with someone who thinks like the people in the OP? Because I'm struggling.

I personally can't. I know no one IRL who is antivax but a couple I have suspect but not close friends with, they have not been vocal so hard to tell. My brother who used to vaccinate my nephew just fell for this and I cannot convince him, I tried for days. I blocked him and I am not sure when if ever I am ready to talk to him again. (deleted details) I am so hurt more than mad that he has become part of them

[MrsAxilla]

Two interesting FB articles I want to share:

First, I'll admit that I never read the Wakefield study because I knew it was debunked and retracted, so why bother? But have any of the anti-vaxxers actually read it? Did you know his "sample size" was TWELVE children?!? 12!!! How can ANYONE buy into that nonsense?

www.vox.com/2015/2/2/7965885/the-research-linking-autism-to-vaccines-is-even-more-terrible-than

Second, this article was written by a British woman whose mother was a crunchy anti-vaxxer and she got ALL the illnesses.

www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2014/01/growing_up_unvaccinated_a_healthy_lifestyle_couldn_t_prevent_many_childhood.html

[sugarglider]

Feb 4, 2015 9:33:28 GMT -5 origami said:

Feb 4, 2015 9:11:06 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I don't understand the anti-vax argument. I don't know why they think the MSM is reporting lies but unvetted niche publications with five readers are to be trusted. It all makes no sense to me.

Of the anti-vaxers I know, I think they just have an innate suspicion of everything that is Big. Big government, Big Pharma, "Big"/Modern medicine, Big Food, Big Media, etc.

I sympathize with their suspicions. I'm hella suspicious of big-ag. And some doctors out there can be real condescending assholes. Considering how much we, as a society, has learned so quickly (over the past century), including a number of things that we learned and then learned we were wrong about, I don't necessarily blame people for not wanting to just take people's word on it. But they also don't know how to read scientific studies (at least I don't--the passive voice makes my eyes water). So we need to give them data in a way that's easy to digest but not condescending. That's what the Megan Heimers (who spread misinformation and jeopardize public health) do. The Penn & Teller video is a good start, but I think anti-vaxxers have mostly moved past the autism myth and are now coming up with other lies.

I do think many can be swayed, but their skepticism should be acknowledged. Otherwise we're just part of the conspiracy.

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2015 12:23:22 GMT -5 btdt said:

Maybe this is an indication of how anti-social I am, or how I surround myself with like-minded individuals, but I don't know a single person who is anti-vax. Even the lady who keeps chickens in her yard (except when it is REALLY cold, then she brings them into her basement) has vaccinated all of her children.

I sort of pride myself on not knowing one person IRL or on FB who doesn't vaccinate, although I'm horrified of posting something on FB about vaccines and finding out that my cousin's wife or someone I didn't think of is a non-vaxxer. Then again, most of my friends are NYers and you need a medical or "sincere religious conviction" to be exempt.

[twotrue]

Feb 4, 2015 13:00:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Feb 4, 2015 9:47:52 GMT -5 ESF said:

First, we need to stop acting like these people are rational actors, and start treating these people like they are brainwashed members of a dangerous cult.

Second, where are the fathers? Why is this a mommy issue? Are the fathers brainwashed, or do they not give a shit?

I have thoughts on this. My DH is very pro-vax, but he's only been to 2 of her pedi appointments. Mostly because my schedule is more flexible. He wants to, but its often not feasible. The anti-vaxxers I know are all sahm with husbands who work crazy long hours. I wouldn't be surprised if they really didn't know what's going on in the vaccine department.

This isn't that crazy of a theory.  DW hasn't been to a single pedi appointment for the boys (like you, it's just easier for me to do it schedule wise).  She doesn't have the first clue to what shots they have had or haven't had.  She just trusts that they are getting done.  Of course I tell her, before or after each visit, but she doesn't retain that info.  I wouldn't be surprised if the primary caregivers (ie mostly mothers) are providing the husbands with "research" and saying this is what they want and then husbands go along with it because they see vaccines/anti-vax as being part of the primary caregiver role.

[autumnfire]

I've been wondering a lot lately the thoughts of parents whose unvaccinated child ended up with the measles. More so how terrible they felt knowing their child exposed others to it. I'd feel so so terrible if my daughters vaccination didn't work and she ended up with something like this, and then gave it and or exposed other children to it.

The things some of these people say I imagine is a defense mechanism to refuse to see logic and make them feel okay about their decision. I just pains me to read, and is beyond frustrating.

[eclaires]

My husband used to go to pedi appointments with me when Jackson was a baby... Or at least went to a few and knew Jackson got shots. But it's been a long time since he's been to one and I guess if I was really dedicated to being anti vax he probably wouldn't really know since I handle all of that.

But we also never talked much about vaccinating and it's always been a foregone conclusion for us. I think if I had ever suggested not doing it he would have laughed me out of the house.

[autumnfire]

Feb 4, 2015 12:30:29 GMT -5 heyjude said:

The vaccine skeptics in my life have doubled down. There is no hope. If a measles outbreak doesn't do anything to change their mind, nothing will.

Also I think I've lost my BFF. We've had words that can't be taken back over this.

Could you be friends with someone who thinks like the people in the OP? Because I'm struggling.

I couldn't, because that means they're perfectly fine with their decision having an impact on mine and people in my life's health who can't or aren't of age to get the proper vaccinations. Unless there is a medical reason it would be hard for me not to use demeaning language about this topic with an anti-vaccination individual. There is normally nothing you can say that will change their mind. Their research is gathered from little chat rooms, mommy blogs and unfounded claims. It's hard to argue with people who cite these places as their resources for research. 

Out of any topic in the world this is one I'm sure to loose friends over. I just can't back this kind of idiocy that is truly harmful to others. I cannot stand behind anyone who feels it's an okay decision to make that not only affects their child but others as well.

This is the only Mommy war I willingly judge other parents on if they're not vaccinating their child (medical reasons aside)

[ESF]

Feb 4, 2015 15:30:04 GMT -5 eclaires said:

My husband used to go to pedi appointments with me when Jackson was a baby... Or at least went to a few and knew Jackson got shots. But it's been a long time since he's been to one and I guess if I was really dedicated to being anti vax he probably wouldn't really know since I handle all of that.

But we also never talked much about vaccinating and it's always been a foregone conclusion for us. I think if I had ever suggested not doing it he would have laughed me out of the house.

You know, this is a good point. I wonder how many of these husbands just assume it's a foregone conclusion because duh.  It seems entirely possible that many of these women just aren't telling them of the choices they are making. 

I would be interested in knowing if these anti-vax forums discuss the husbands at all.

I wonder to what extent an education campaign directed at men would do to help. 

[eclaires]

Feb 4, 2015 16:04:18 GMT -5 ESF said:

Feb 4, 2015 15:30:04 GMT -5 eclaires said:

My husband used to go to pedi appointments with me when Jackson was a baby... Or at least went to a few and knew Jackson got shots. But it's been a long time since he's been to one and I guess if I was really dedicated to being anti vax he probably wouldn't really know since I handle all of that.

But we also never talked much about vaccinating and it's always been a foregone conclusion for us. I think if I had ever suggested not doing it he would have laughed me out of the house.

You know, this is a good point. I wonder how many of these husbands just assume it's a foregone conclusion because duh.  It seems entirely possible that many of these women just aren't telling them of the choices they are making. 

I would be interested in knowing if these anti-vax forums discuss the husbands at all.

I wonder to what extent an education campaign directed at men would do to help. 

Most anti vaxxers I'm aware of are awfully loud and proud about it. But maybe the husbands just tune it out and don't really get the actual implications of not vaxxing?

Eta: my husband is a very invovled dad and partner but I know he tunes me out just like I tune him out about work stuff. Since I SAH, a lot of the default things just fall under my control despite how invovled he is.

[MrsAxilla]

Feb 4, 2015 15:27:55 GMT -5 autumnfire said:

I've been wondering a lot lately the thoughts of parents whose unvaccinated child ended up with the measles. More so how terrible they felt knowing their child exposed others to it. I'd feel so so terrible if my daughters vaccination didn't work and she ended up with something like this, and then gave it and or exposed other children to it.

The things some of these people say I imagine is a defense mechanism to refuse to see logic and make them feel okay about their decision. I just pains me to read, and is beyond frustrating.

That AZ cardiologist on FB was like "sucks for them!  I don't care."  Ass.