Hard Water for renters?

[audette]

So, the place we rented has really hard water. We knew the water was going to be hard (you could see a bit of the scaling on water fixtures).  But, we had no idea it was going to be _this_ bad...  I don't think I've ever seen this extreme.

Is it insane for us to consider installing a water softener?  We have a 2+ year lease, but expect the next PCS move to happen around 20-22 months from now.

[hopenotlost]

Will the landlord let you? Maybe they would install one and just raise your rent a little bit, that way you don't have to install it and all that. I know my landlord is pretty awesome, so he would totally do that, but not all landlords are like him.

[audette]

Feb 18, 2015 14:25:03 GMT -5 hopenotlost said:

Will the landlord let you? Maybe they would install one and just raise your rent a little bit, that way you don't have to install it and all that. I know my landlord is pretty awesome, so he would totally do that, but not all landlords are like him.

I think so.  The connections are roughed in down in the furnace room, so it wouldn't take much to add one.  I was thinking of proposing to them that we would pay for the water softener (that they would approve) if they would cover the installation of it.  They're builders, as we as landlords, so they probably have a plumber on staff/retainer/whatever...  The place was up for sale or rent before we rented it, so something that improves the property might be desirable for them.

[UnderProtest]

audette, How much is a water softener?

[audette]

Feb 18, 2015 15:16:26 GMT -5 UnderProtest said:

audette, How much is a water softener?

Well, I've googled, and it looks like they can run from about $400 to several thousand. Plus having to buy the salts needed on an ongoing basis for the softener.

The difficulty is that I don't know enough about them to really understand why there is such variance in the prices, or why one might want to get one of the more expensive kinds.

On the low end, it would be a no-brainer - pay $400-600 for a water softener to make my life better for a year or two? Sure! But, I highly suspect that once I start looking into it, I'll discover there's no point in buying one for less than $1k, and that enters the territory of "is this worth it?".

I guess I need to learn more about water softeners first.

[UnderProtest]

@audettte, yeah, that is a wide range. Are there any places you can go that sell a range of them so you can ask? I would love to have one here too. I didn't realize how much my body hates hard water.

[audette]

Feb 18, 2015 15:45:51 GMT -5 UnderProtest said:

@audettte, yeah, that is a wide range. Are there any places you can go that sell a range of them so you can ask? I would love to have one here too. I didn't realize how much my body hates hard water.

There probably are other places, but Home Depot, Lowes and Menards seem to be the likely suspects.  Good idea on figuring out the basics, at least.

[asoctoberfalls]

I would call a water treatment company, not a big box store. Someone on H&G knows quite a bit about water softeners. FoxInFiji maybe ?

We are getting a softener installed this week and it's going to cost about $1650 - $1300 for the softener and $350 for a chlorine filter.

[asoctoberfalls]

Oh , and I personally would not do this in a rental. The main reason we are doing it is to preserve our plumbing and fixtures because we plan to stay here a really long time.

[audette]

Feb 18, 2015 16:14:17 GMT -5 asoctoberfalls said:

Oh , and I personally would not do this in a rental. The main reason we are doing it is to preserve our plumbing and fixtures because we plan to stay here a really long time.

Hard water affects more than just the plumbing and fixtures, though. It can damage clothes (or make them degrade much faster).  We're only a few days in, and it's wreaking havoc with my hair - it's like the conditioner I'm using doesn't do anything.  I can _taste_ how hard the water is, too, even in my tea.  It can also make it harder to clean, which we plan on outsourcing at some point, but then it'll take the cleaners longer to get the same amount of cleaning done, making that more expensive...

This is probably just be a knee-jerk reaction. We've only been in the house for 5 days.  I'll give it some more time before I make a decision, but it might be worth it, even at $1300-$1500.  I'm not sure.

[Deleted]

I would buy an in shower filter. Something like this -
www.amazon.com/Culligan-WSH-C125-Wall-Mount-Capacity-Showerhead/dp/B0006VVN1S/ref=pd_sim_hi_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Z9V4MHD4XWJ486X583X

ETA -  I'd get an inline filter for the kitchen as well, and something like this for laundry - 

www.amazon.com/Charlies-Soap-Booster-Treatment-2-64lb/dp/B00AM0PCNI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424295740&sr=8-2&keywords=laundry+water+softener

[pamela]

I used to live in San Antonio where you can see the lime floating in your tap water. My parents just installed a water softener after living with it for 50 years. Personally, I hate it. Soap doesn't wash off and the water is too salty to drink. I don't think a softener is rental worthy.

[audette]

Feb 18, 2015 16:40:16 GMT -5 @ruralrabbit1 said:

I would buy an in shower filter. Something like this -
www.amazon.com/Culligan-WSH-C125-Wall-Mount-Capacity-Showerhead/dp/B0006VVN1S/ref=pd_sim_hi_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Z9V4MHD4XWJ486X583X

ETA -  I'd get an inline filter for the kitchen as well, and something like this for laundry - 

www.amazon.com/Charlies-Soap-Booster-Treatment-2-64lb/dp/B00AM0PCNI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424295740&sr=8-2&keywords=laundry+water+softener

That showerhead is cool!  I had no idea something like that existed.

Looks like there are other solutions I hadn't considered, thank you!

[FoxInFiji]

Feb 18, 2015 16:12:51 GMT -5 asoctoberfalls said:

I would call a water treatment company, not a big box store. Someone on H&G knows quite a bit about water softeners. FoxInFiji maybe ?

We are getting a softener installed this week and it's going to cost about $1650 - $1300 for the softener and $350 for a chlorine filter.

Yes that's me. 

First the filtered devices listed earlier won't do anything for hard water.  There are certain types of filters that can help with hard water but they are the whole house style, expensive, and need very regular maintenance so they are seldom used.

I've typed this water softener stuff out so many times let me go find some old posts and c&p them here.

[UnderProtest]

Feb 18, 2015 16:40:16 GMT -5 @ruralrabbit1 said:

I would buy an in shower filter. Something like this -
www.amazon.com/Culligan-WSH-C125-Wall-Mount-Capacity-Showerhead/dp/B0006VVN1S/ref=pd_sim_hi_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Z9V4MHD4XWJ486X583X

ETA -  I'd get an inline filter for the kitchen as well, and something like this for laundry - 

www.amazon.com/Charlies-Soap-Booster-Treatment-2-64lb/dp/B00AM0PCNI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424295740&sr=8-2&keywords=laundry+water+softener

Damn it.  Now I want one of these but I doubt it would fit on the pipes here.  

[audette]

Feb 18, 2015 17:13:18 GMT -5 FoxInFiji said:

Feb 18, 2015 16:12:51 GMT -5 asoctoberfalls said:

I would call a water treatment company, not a big box store. Someone on H&G knows quite a bit about water softeners. FoxInFiji maybe ?

We are getting a softener installed this week and it's going to cost about $1650 - $1300 for the softener and $350 for a chlorine filter.

Yes that's me. 

First the filtered devices listed earlier won't do anything for hard water.  There are certain types of filters that can help with hard water but they are the whole house style, expensive, and need very regular maintenance so they are seldom used.

I've typed this water softener stuff out so many times let me go find some old posts and c&p them here.

That was my worry with the showerhead listed above.  I was hopeful!  Looks like it filters out chlorine, at least, but doesn't soften the water.    Boo.

[FoxInFiji]

OK this is very detailed and long but that is what the original poster wanted:

We just DIY installed one and I did a ton of research. If you or your husband are handy at all don't hire a plumber to install one. Very few plumbers know how to properly size a water softener...call 10 plumbers you'll get 10 people saying that you need a 24,000 grain unit without every even testing your water. I've found that water softeners are a mystery to most of the population even my very smart & handy father and FIL don't know how they work exactly or how to tell if one is good or not. Here is what I've learned so far:

1) You want a control valve (the heart of the whole unit) that actually measures the amount of water you've used. This will save you significant water and salt because it will only regenerate when it needs to not every 3 days at 2am like the standard clock style. Many of the cheap big box store ones are the clock style because they are easier to DIY install and set up.

2) The first thing you need to do is get your water tested by your county public health. You want to know the hardness or if they don't have that as an option both the calcium and magnesium levels (hardness is a combination of both of these minerals). You will also need to get your iron levels checked because that will impact what size and type of water softener you need. If you have a private well you should also get your bacteria levels.

3) You want a non-proprietary control valve. This means if the valve breaks in the future you don't have to hire the same company to come out and fix it (you could hire anyone or DIY). Every water softener company you call will say their units are proprietary and that the warranty is void if anyone else comes to fix the unit or if you try to DIY. Some of these valves are actually proprietary some are not. If you are straight forward and know what you are talking about you can usually find out the truth.

4) The two most popular and easy to find non-proprietary control valves are Fleck and Clack. Fleck has a hold on the market and the most readily available. Clack is the valve I'd recommend though because they are extremely easy to install and fix. We saved $600 by buying and installing our own.

5) Once you have your water test results back size the unit yourself. Don't rely on a company to size if for you. Here is the equation:

Unit grains x .8 = grains after reserve

Any single tank unit only uses 80% of its capacity before it regenerates because that extra reserve is in case you use a lot of water the day before it regenerates. Two tank units use the full capacity and therefore don't need to be derated. We originally thought this is what we wanted but in my calculations of water and salt savings I found it was actually more beneficial and significantly cheaper to use only one tank.

Grains after reserve / (# people x gallons per day estimate x grains of hardness) = numbers of days before the unit regenerates

Contrary to what people may tell you the water softener should ideally regenerate every 6-8 days. Anything less and you are wasting significant water and salt. Anything more isn't as bad but it could cause salt bridging in your brine tank which causes problems. The number of people should include any future children you may have or could be sized off the number of bedrooms (3 bedroom house = 4 people). The gallons per day is a guess but can be anywhere from 60-75 gpd. 60 is becoming the new standard because homes now have low flow fixtures but older homes may use 75 gpd. The grains of hardness may actually be reported as ppm (parts per million) on your test results and you'll have to convert to grains.

For example our calculations were this:
48,000 gr x 0.8 = 38,400 gr
38,400 gr / (4 people x 60 gpd x 24 gr) = 6.7 days

We have very, very hard water. Anything over 180 ppm is considered very hard and our water was 408 ppm! We ended up getting the 48,000 grain single tank for $717 dollars which is about the same price we could have gotten a cheap 24,000 grain unit from a big box store. But the 24,000 gr unit would have regenerated 110 times a year instead of 55 times using an extra 1,758 gallons of water and 82 lb of salt each year! Now we don't pay for our water because we have a well (we pay for the electricity to use the pump but that is less than if we lived in a city and had to pay for our water usage) but if we did that would be a big cost savings!

Most homes with a water softener don't actually have soft water or they are regenerating more often than they need to have soft water.

[FoxInFiji]

With that said you're in a different situation than the pp I wrote that out for. It was all based on ROI and saving water & salt.

Since you are looking at such a short time frame I don't think a cheap big box store water softener would be a bad choice. Just know what you're getting. It will use more salt and water but it's only 2 years so not a big out of pocket cost. The main reason landlords don't put water softeners in rentals is that the renters need to keep up with adding salt or the system can break.

I've heard from some people that you can get water softeners with flow metered control valves at some big box stores now so you could look at that too.

The place we bought our softener from is the local supplier to most of the local plumbers. They not only sold it to me at a great low price but would also install for a lot less for only $100 more. It sounds like your landlord is handy so I'm guessing this would a be something he could easily do.

HTH!

[audette]

Hrm. So it sounds like the place to start is to get the water tested by County Health. Probably too late to contact them today, but I can call them tomorrow.


I'm fairly handy, but I suspect our landlord will want us to use a plumber (probably their plumber) for installation, so we'll be stuck with that, regardless.

[audette]

Feb 18, 2015 17:50:01 GMT -5 FoxInFiji said:

With that said you're in a different situation than the pp I wrote that out for. It was all based on ROI and saving water & salt.

Since you are looking at such a short time frame I don't think a cheap big box store water softener would be a bad choice. Just know what you're getting. It will use more salt and water but it's only 2 years so not a big out of pocket cost. The main reason landlords don't put water softeners in rentals is that the renters need to keep up with adding salt or the system can break.

I've heard from some people that you can get water softeners with flow metered control valves at some big box stores now so you could look at that too.

The place we bought our softener from is the local supplier to most of the local plumbers. They not only sold it to me at a great low price but would also install for a lot less for only $100 more. It sounds like your landlord is handy so I'm guessing this would a be something he could easily do.

HTH!

Our landlord is also a medium sized builder in our area.  They're still building homes up the street from where we are renting.  Hence why I figure they might have a plumber who could do the install. 

But, you're right - a big box store softener might be the better bet for us.  Lots to mull over.  I think the first step is getting the water tested to know how hard the water is.  And, part of the issues I'm having now might just be acclimating to the local water, too.  All sorts of things to think about.

[msmerymac]

I don't know where you are located, but being winter, it could exacerbate the skin/hair issue with hard water. I have hard water and my skin was definitely itchy when I first moved in, but you get used to it (like your skin and hair sort of regulate after a while). I'd probably wait a month or two to make sure it's something you still really want.

[agnes]

I've lived with hard water practically my whole life. We lived in a rental with a softwater system and I was not a fan. I never felt clean and the water was salty.

[zitiqueen]

Before we installed a water softener I was going in to the salon about every three months for a Malibu treatment to de-orangeify my hair.

[OrangeBanana]

I know I'm late to the party here but when we lived in a house with hard well water we rented a water softener through a water company. It was around $30 a month plus salt. It's kind of a different situation from you because it was there from the previous tenants when we moved in and we just took over the lease of the equipment. Maybe you could work something like that out with your landlord and then you wouldn't have to but the equipment yourself.

[karinothing]

Feb 20, 2015 16:26:00 GMT -5 mofongo said:

I'm in a hard water city, I actually dislike soft water, I feel like I can never get the soap off of anything. I would give it a few months and see how you've adjusted.

This is how I am! I can't stand soft water lol.

[lilac05]

If a softener is working appropriately, the water will not be "soft water" it just won't stain and/or slowly destroy everything it you own. My grandparents had a softener that made it hard to wash soap off and all of that. Because my parents remembered (& hated!) that, they chose not to have a softener put in their brand new home. 3.5 years later, they have a new water heater because the hard water killed the water heater. There's a lot of middle ground between the two extremes!

We lived in an area where probably 95% of homes have a softener in them because the water is so hard. More demand = more options. We have several places that rent & service them. I'd contact your landlord and tell them that you're bothered by the hard water and see what they say. It may be something they've considered in the past, and a simple call would get the ball rolling. I wouldn't offer to pay until they tell you no.