I'm losing my mind...

[ilovebed]

I am at my wits end with Em (who will be 3 in July). She such a BAD listener. She refuses to follow the simplest requests. Every single day I dread picking her up at daycare because it involves 10-20 minutes of wrangling her.

Here is a scenario that exhibits what I deal with all the time. I picked her up at school at 5. She was outside playing. She saw me and came running happily, which was nice. I greeted her calmly and hugged her. Then I said "Can you help me go inside and get your things?" This simple request is cause for her break away from me and run maniacally around the play yard. I asked her to please come to me to hold my hand so we can go inside. It look several minutes just to get her to come to me (instead of me having to chase her down). Then, instead of walking inside with me, she ran inside and than laid on the ground and refused to get up. She was laughing at me, not having a tantrum. I calmly asked her to get up and told her that I needed her help finding her backpack. She got up and then ran maniacally again out of the front door and into the front play yard.

(meanwhile, all the other parents (including Shevacc's dad) were picking up their well-behaved children who were calmly leaving with their parents. It was so embarrassing.)

Her teacher told me to do this 1-2-3 approach. 1 is making the request the first time. 2 is going to where she is, getting close to her face and make eye contact, and make the request again. 3 is forcing them to do the thing over and over again until they do it the right way. For Em, this means that when she runs away from me and hides in a corner of the play yard I have to go to her, carry her back to the starting point and say "Let's try this again. I asked you to help me find your backpack and blanket. Please walk with me back inside to get these things." This prompts her to run around and hide again. I go through this process FOUR TIMES until she finally breaks down and walks calmly inside. Then I praise the living shit out of her and make her do it correctly one more time just to reinforce her good behavior. So we finally go inside, get her stuff and then she walks outside with me. This whole process took me 20 minutes today.

This literally happens to me every single day. And then basically everything else in our lives is the same thing. Going upstairs to get ready for bed, cleaning up toys, brushing teeth, washing hands, throwing trash away. I don't demand either...I make requests and I give choices. For 5 nights I told her that we have special ice cream for dessert and if she is a good listener at dinner and washes her hands and face after dinner we can share some. For 5 nights she has given me a reason to take away the opportunity. She throws a huge fit "But I want it! But I want it!" But she NEVER remembers and then the night time she just acts like a brat again. I give her plenty of warning. "Remember last night when you threw your toy across the room instead of helping me clean up?' "Yes" "Do you remember how sad you were that you couldn't have ice cream." "Yes" "Okay, maybe tonight you can be a great listener and then we can share ice cream." BUT IT NEVER SINKS IN.

I'm not asking for too much here. I let a lot slide. I'm asking for her to follow some very simple basic rues that a child her age should be able to follow.

What am I doing wrong!?! I've read books. I've read articles. I've met several times with her teachers. I feel like none of the other kids act like her. I feel like she's different or I'm doing something wrong. I feel like I"m just constantly disciplining her. Constantly negotiating. I have to tell her to do things 10 times before she acknowledges me.

She makes me feel like I can't handle another kid. She's such a handful sometimes. Good days with her are the rare occassion. When we have a good day, H and I talk about it forever. We're like "Man she was so good from Friday night through the end of Saturday. Remember how nice that was? Man, I wish every day was like that." And then 5 more days of insanity.

[georgeharrison]

I'm so sorry. That sounds super frustrating. I can't give you any advice, because it had been too long since tman was that age. I hope this phase passes soon for you. Hugs.

[dana86]

All I can say is you are not alone. M is 4 and I am still battling with some of these issues, although not as bad as before. Some has gotten better with time and her getting older but her listening has always been our biggest battle and like you I feel like I am just constantly getting at her.

I have nothing to help but I just want you to know you are definitely not alone with this battle.

[jamer]

I'm sorry! It's exhausting! I will say you aren't alone. My oldest sounds a lot like your daughter. You sound better at remaining calm than me. I will say mine has gotten better from about 3 on so maybe she's at her peak of not listening now? I'll cross my fingers for you. Just yesterday mine threw a huge fit about having to sit on the potty after waking up. We do this every single day the past month but it's almost never an easy thing. Just do it already!

I see all the other good listener kids too and get jealous. At a gymnastics class I did with my daughter when she was 2 a mom told me after class "I don't know what I would do if I had a child as wild as yours". Um she wasn't wild. She's just a non listening 2 year old! Ugh it was so embarrassing. And now to shove it in my face she has preschool with the kid! However on first day my daughter was a better listener than him! Hahahaha.

I don't have much advice since I'm still working on it and we have good days and bad days. Just be consistent and follow thru on threats and rewards. Is there another reward she could work towards that might make her happier? A sticker chart to earn a toy or trip to park or something?

[Deleted]

I'm lurking from the app but I just wanted to let you know you are not alone. My just turned 3 yr old is the exact same way. It's fairly recent change for her so I am praying it's a phase.

Hugs

[alias]

Hugs!

First, remember that those well behaved kids may throw tantrums at home. Forever, daycare thought E was the most pleasant, polite, calm kid. If I'd say something about him screaming or throwing temper tantrums, they'd look shocked and be like, "E??? Really???" He just saved it for me. But, now he shares it with them sometimes too.

e is a lot younger, so I'm dealing with other issues, but I've had to change my approach a few times. Time outs worked, then they didn't. So, maybe try different encouragement/punishment until you find (hopefully) something that works.

I say eat the ice cream in front if her & stick out your tongue.

[georgeharrison]

Apr 23, 2015 1:47:15 GMT -5 @lauralynne said:

So in reading the scenario that you described, the following comes to mind (and you've probably already tried it but I'll throw it out there anyway...). Choices are what work really well with L - so when I pick him up from school it would go something along the lines of do you want to pick up the red and blue or the yellow and white Legos? I will pick up the ones he doesn't. So for E it would be "do you want to hold my hand and leave or have me carry you?""will you carry your coat or wear it?" "Should we skip or walk to the car?" Or some variation of that -- to me it sounds like she's just trying to control her environment? I could be miles off...
We have our struggles here too, fortunately not often (he still doesn't sleep...there is that!). But giving him perceived control has helped us navigate the 2-3 ages so far really well. (L isn't a reward kind of kid so there isn't any bribing that works and time outs are frustrating because he just intentionally pees his pants escalating things to Defcon 5 instantly!)

I know this isn't funny for you, but I chuckled.

[ilovebed]

Apr 23, 2015 1:47:15 GMT -5 @lauralynne said:

So in reading the scenario that you described, the following comes to mind (and you've probably already tried it but I'll throw it out there anyway...). Choices are what work really well with L - so when I pick him up from school it would go something along the lines of do you want to pick up the red and blue or the yellow and white Legos? I will pick up the ones he doesn't. So for E it would be "do you want to hold my hand and leave or have me carry you?""will you carry your coat or wear it?" "Should we skip or walk to the car?" Or some variation of that -- to me it sounds like she's just trying to control her environment? I could be miles off...
We have our struggles here too, fortunately not often (he still doesn't sleep...there is that!). But giving him perceived control has helped us navigate the 2-3 ages so far really well. (L isn't a reward kind of kid so there isn't any bribing that works and time outs are frustrating because he just intentionally pees his pants escalating things to Defcon 5 instantly!)

No, you are so right. She really needs choices...just like me. I refuse to do what someone tells me to do but if they suggest it or give me choices I'll do it...even as an adult. I am usually so good about giving choices like "Do you want to wash your hands like a big girl by yourself? Or do you need me to help you?" Or I'll give her two choices for outfits or whatever. I guess I'm in such a rush in the mornings and evenings that I just want her to do the things and be done with it so I forget to give the options. I'll try that this week at pick up and see how that goes. 

She isn't really a people pleaser but she is motivated by treats so I think the chart will work. She loves having her finger nails and toes done. It's a special thing I do for her on a day that goes particularly well. I posted on FB about my ideas for a chart and got some great input from other people who have used rewards charts for kids her ago, as well as some "pro tips" from a teacher I know so I think I'll put that together this week and pick up some fun stickers. I really feel like I don't want to get PG again until I get a better handle on this behavior b/c I just know when I'm sick and tired from being pregnant I'm going to let shit slide that I shouldn't. 

[ilovebed]

Thanks for letting me commiserate. I love her and look forward to our time together but I could never stay home with her. I feel so much respect and love for moms who stay home and never get a break. By Sunday nights I'm really looking forward to going to work the next morning. Fortunately I feel like her daycare instructors are really on the ball and they stay in touch regarding issues and discipline. I feel like they really care about her and our family and her success at school. It might be time for another meeting with her teachers just to touch base about how she's doing. It's been a rough week at home and at school apparently.

[shevacc]

I'm sorry you're struggling and know you have my sympathy, certainly not my judgment when you're trying to pickup E. She's soooo much like a mini version of you, ILB, so it's no wonder you two butt heads. She's confident and smart and very social which are all awesome qualities to have. But don't fit well with following directions and acquiescing to authority figures.

Have you heard of the book Raising Your Spirited Child (http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-Spirited-Child-Perceptive/dp/0060739665)? I've heard a lot of great things about it. It includes a different set of strategies that might work for E. Try not to feel defeated bc she's really a great kid!

[karebear219]

Here's what we do. Take it with what you can use. I don't think bkb is as difficult as blb, but she has her moment. I relize every child and parent are different.

Choices for sure

Learn her love language - this will help a better understanding. Bkb's is acts of kindness so she often says she needs help doing something even though she KNOWS how to do it and done it a billion of times. So I often offer to do it with her vs. saying no do it yourself. She only asks when she needs to feel loved or has a regression cylce.

Always make requests a statement never a question. Never say can you, will you, why don't you. If you do they will always say no. Also try to phrase things in the positive. Do this instead, not don't do that.

You have to use discipline in addition to bribes. Use bribes wisely. Every house hold is different but we try to never use food as a bribe. It teaches bad food habits. IE - I've been good so I will deserve chocolate (when have we not all said that). Since when do you need chocolate for doing something good or for when you've been having a bad day? Make rewards a healthy activity. You did good at the store so we get to play at the park afterwards. Bed time is always a struggle, so if she listens and doesn't wine she gets to listen to a disney song of her choice before bed. She loves this and shapes right up when we threaten to take it away. When we have she knows she was in big trouble. Yes it is screen time (because we use you tube) but it is 3 minutes and very effective.

We keep discipline related and respectful. Remove the item causing the issue if she is throwing a toy or she looses a privilege.

Most of the time, time outs are effective however they haven't always gone well. One day she kept running out of time out. I would pick her up and put her back. I did this five times plus times. As you can imagine it turned into a game and I was stuck. Then I told her if she didn't stay in time out her toys would get taken away. She didn't listen, so all her favorite stuffed animals got put away overnight. If she made good choices the rest of the evening she got one toy back to sleep with. If not no toys. This strategy has continued to be effective for now. Since I did it once she knows I will do it again.

Telling her advance what is going to happen also helps so she knows what to expect. IE okay we have 15 minutes, 5 minutes, okay it's time to go. Or we can go in the Disney Store but we aren't going to buy anything. We are just looking (she'll still whine a little, but if I didn't tell her it would be a full on temper tantrum asking for toys).

I think I already talked about breaks vs. time outs before so I will leave that one. I am still working on teaching her to sell manage her emotions when she gets upset. There's a Daniel Tiger episode where they talk about calming down. The song in it repeats take a deep breath and give yourself a hug. So now we always talk about taking a deep breath and giving yourself a hug to calm down.

Being three is hard. It's funny I have told bkb this a couple times. You want to be so independant but can't yet. Sometimes when we talk about what happened afterward she'll say "being three is hard". It's the cutest thing.

Big hugs we are all in there with you.

[ilovebed]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll check out that book Shevacc.

All good tips KareBear. I agree that food should not be the reward. I have food issues myself and I don't want it to be like that for her. She loves having her nails painted so that's a big consequence for her if she is misbehaving.

H and I are trying to work on keeping things simple, giving choices, and making things positive instead of negative. Like saying "If you keep your feet off of the table, we will get to watch Wild Kratts." Instead of "If you put your feet on the table one more time you can't watch any shows!"

I'm definitely going to try the reward chart starting next week. And I'll keep all these ideas in my head.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Especially you shevacc. She is so much like me. You're right. And she has some really great qualities. She's kind and plays well. She's socially very appropriate. I think he teachers really like her despite how trying she is. Hopefully and I help her realize how much more fun it is when she's a good listener and we can all do fun things together instead of her always being in trouble!

[ilovebed]

So I read some reviews of this book and I also looked up what it means to be a spirited child and found this. I'm still ordering the book but I actually don't feel like she meets many of these. She's a champion sleeper. At school she has a really hard time napping b/c of all the distractions but at home she sleeps 2-3 hours at home for naps and about 11 hours a night for sleep. She was a horrible sleeper as a newborn though and I've had to work really hard on a sleep schedule. She really doesn't have tantrums. She's defiant but it's fleeting. She rarely melts down and I've never experienced the true toddler tantrum. Emmy's really not adverse to change. Transitions don't really effect her too much. In fact I'd say she's really easy going in terms of our daily schedule. The "never gives up" things doesn't really apply to her. She kind of just flits from one thing to the next and doesn't really dwell. I also wouldn't say she's highly focused. If anything she lacks the ability to focus. She does have a lot of energy though. She never stops moving. I do feel like I go crazy on the weekends if we just stay around the house. I have to get her out, moving. She's highly social and wants to be with other kids and will request play dates often. She's just SO SO defiant and willful. But none of those other stuff really applies. 


1. Your child doesn’t sleep. Not as a newborn, not as a toddler, not as a child. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, unless you’re the parent and you have to stay awake with them to make sure they don’t try to fry some eggs for a midnight snack or climb to the top of the china cabinet to get that glass vase down and see what it sounds like if they hit it against the floor (because they would. Do that). Do intense kids just need less sleep? Probably not. The problem is that they’re too smart. They’re thinking so much, so fast, that their brains can’t slow down enough to sleep.

Best way to deal with it? Distract them from themselves. Our daughter listens to audiobooks while she falls asleep. They stay on all night long. At full volume. Which yes, we can hear in our room. But she stays in bed. Totally worth it.

2. Your child’s tantrums are longer and more intense. Every toddler throws tantrums, right? But there are tantrums and there are tantrums. When my daughter was two, she never threw tantrums. Not anything I considered a tantrum, anyway. She’d get upset, and I’d breastfeed her, and she’d calm down. But she made up for it when she was three.

It’s normal for a three year old to throw a fit because you gave her the “wrong” kind of juice. But if your three year old throws a fit because you filled her cup three-quarters full instead of half-full of orange juice, and dumping out the excess doesn’t help, and the screaming continues for three straight hours, and then just as it starts to slow down it starts again because you put her cup on the wrong spot (even though you put it exactly where it had been a minute before), well, then she might be spirited.

Solution? I don’t know. Hide. Give yourself a time-out in the closet. At least then she’ll be pounding on the closet door instead of hitting you.

3. Your child hates change. This is also normal for young children. But I’m talking any change. Even expected changes that happen every day, like the transition from waking up to eating snack. Lots of kids have trouble with transitions. But if every little step in your day seems to take three times longer than it takes for other friends with kids (don’t even bother comparing to yourself before you had kids, because that doesn’t count), then you might be dealing with spirit. If just getting into the car seat requires an elaborate transition ritual involving a story, a song, a dance, a sticker, and precisely six Cheerios counted out one by one, then you might be having more than normal difficulty with change.

Your response? Count the darn Cheerios. Trust me. It’s easier than the alternative.

4. Your child never gives up. This is a good trait. Really. One they have in common with Winston Churchill, Batman, and the Little Engine That Could. This is the reason why spirited kids become adults who change the world. But in the meantime, it will drive you nuts. They will wear you down. When they decide they want something, they will beg and beg for days. Actually weeks. And they’re like elephants — they never forget. Six months later, they’ll see that same toy in the grocery store and start crying because they still want it.

Solution? Stay strong, my friend. Stick to your guns. And never, ever say no unless you really, really mean it. Learn to say “maybe” or “we’ll see” or “let’s talk about it” unless your real answer is “over my dead body.” Because if your child decides he really wants it, he will Beg. You. To. Death. Choose what hill you want to die on.

Because when it comes down to Parent vs. Spirited Toddler? My money’s on the toddler.

5. Your child is highly focused. When he wants to be, that is. Every once in a while, his interests will align with yours, and then life will be really easy for a while. But most of the time, he will be highly focused on spreading his artwork all over the kitchen floor while you are trying to make dinner. Don’t worry. You’ll learn to work around it. And whatever you do, don’t interrupt. I know you think he’s just making a mess. But really he’s painting the Sistine Chapel. How do you think Michelangelo would have reacted if the pope had told him to clean up his scaffolding at the end of every day? He would have thrown a tantrum too. And then the pope would have gone to hide in the closet.

6. Your child’s schedule is unpredictable. I remember when my play group started planning meetings around everyone’s nap schedules. I was like, nap schedule? You mean you actually know when your child is going to take a nap? I couldn’t begin to guess when my daughter was going to sleep. Or wake up. It was different every day.

Can you put a spirited kid on a schedule? You can try. I spent a lot of time googling “ideal schedule for such-and-such age” and then trying to follow it. I even tried waking her up at 8 in the morning so she’d then (theoretically) be ready for a nap at 1. Then I’d try for two hours to put her to sleep, and she’d fall asleep at 3, when her nap was supposed to be over. At which point I had to decide whether to wake her up so she’d (theoretically) be ready for bed sooner or let her sleep and know that she’d be going to bed late. And by “late” I mean “after midnight.” After which I had to decide whether to wake her up again at 8 the next morning.

But hey, highly creative people often sleep less, right? Especially when they’re in the middle of a project. At 18 months, she was probably already planning that robot business.

7. Your child has a lot of energy. All kids have more energy than adults. This is because they are parasites who draw energy out of their parents like vampires suck blood. But some kids can spend a day playing at home in the yard and still go to bed that night. My daughter cannot stay home. She has to go out somewhere she can run, jump, play with other kids, and throw heavy things. A “relaxing” day at home will end with one of us climbing the walls. Either she will climb the walls to get to the bottle of Elmer’s glue I put on a high shelf because she wants to make a costume by gluing her favorite dresses together, or I will climb the walls as an alternative to hiding in the closet. So I can watch the chaos from a safe distance.

Do spirited kids ever outgrow their intensity? No. But they do learn to handle it better. Most of the time. Really. My daughter is so much easier now than she was a year ago. She can listen to reason (sometimes). And she can sit still and focus on things like putting together snap circuits or gluing 3,000 sequins onto a piece of paper one by one. Someday, your child will gain some measure of control over that intense energy.

Till then, the best thing to do is enjoy the ride. And be patient. And keep telling your child that you love her no matter what, even when she’s mad and throws a tantrum and hits you and when you trip on the artwork she left lying all over the floor. And then do yoga breaths in the closet.

[jamer]

ilovebed. My daughter and yours sound like kindred spirits. My daughter doesn't fit those critera at all either but more of what you describe. Hope you at least find some good suggestions that will work for you guys

[ilovebed]

Apr 24, 2015 10:52:59 GMT -5 jamer said:

ilovebed. My daughter and yours sound like kindred spirits. My daughter doesn't fit those critera at all either but more of what you describe. Hope you at least find some good suggestions that will work for you guys

I think the book will offer some interesting insights. I want to meet with her teacher too just to touch base about how things are going. Right now she's transitioning from her toddler class to the big kid class (2.5-4). The transition has been going on for about a month where she spends the mornings in the toddler class and then the afternoons in the big kid class. And all day fridays in the big kid class. I briefly mentioned to her teacher this morning at drop off that it's been a rough week. And her teachers smiled and said "Emmy is such a special girl." WTF does that mean? Lol.

Tell me about what your daughter was like as a baby. How is she doing as a big sister? I've kind of lost track but you had a baby in the last year right? Emmy wants a baby sister or brother. She asks all the time and tells me she's going to grow one in her tummy. Haha. But I just really worry about losing control of her when I have a baby to focus on. I think she'll be helpful though. She's a good helper and likes to have a purpose.

[jamer]

Apr 24, 2015 11:34:47 GMT -5 ilovebed said:

Apr 24, 2015 10:52:59 GMT -5 jamer said:

ilovebed. My daughter and yours sound like kindred spirits. My daughter doesn't fit those critera at all either but more of what you describe. Hope you at least find some good suggestions that will work for you guys

I think the book will offer some interesting insights. I want to meet with her teacher too just to touch base about how things are going. Right now she's transitioning from her toddler class to the big kid class (2.5-4). The transition has been going on for about a month where she spends the mornings in the toddler class and then the afternoons in the big kid class. And all day fridays in the big kid class. I briefly mentioned to her teacher this morning at drop off that it's been a rough week. And her teachers smiled and said "Emmy is such a special girl." WTF does that mean? Lol.

Tell me about what your daughter was like as a baby. How is she doing as a big sister? I've kind of lost track but you had a baby in the last year right? Emmy wants a baby sister or brother. She asks all the time and tells me she's going to grow one in her tummy. Haha. But I just really worry about losing control of her when I have a baby to focus on. I think she'll be helpful though. She's a good helper and likes to have a purpose.

My oldest was a pretty easy baby (didn't know that at the time!) great sleeper from 4 months on. She was never a smiley or "happy" baby. Very very serious. Of course she's happy and silly now. She's really smart and has an amazing memory so I think she was just studying . She's almost 3 1/2 and my youngest is almost 11 months. Oldest didn't talk about babies, didn't like babies, wanted nothing to do with babies before her sister came. And because of her strong willed personality I was very worried but it's been amazing. She's been a great older sister and we had an "easy" transition to 2. My oldest loves to "help" and no one can make my baby laugh like she does. Luckily she never acted out or was jealous of baby.

And lol at your daughter being "special". I hate it when people say stuff like that to make you wonder. But I bet they mean it . I'm trying to think in the future it will be great that my daughter is strong willed and doesn't always follow the herd.

[picksthemusic]

Oh yes... M drives me nuts sometimes, but we're getting better at nipping things in the bud, because I know what usually sets her off. So, if we can avoid the things that get her all wacky, then it's somewhat better. We talk a lot - I ask her questions, she asks me questions, and I make sure I get on her level and explain what we're doing and why, and what she gets to look forward to if she helps/behaves/whatever. Big thing these days is going to the store before we go home after daycare. She loves it. So I tell her that we're going to the store, so we need to go, so get your coat and boots and get going. She also gives her friends high-fives before she leaves, so that helps. I also let her pick some music to listen to in the car, so she gets excited about that, too. I know that TV time is her motivation, so I tell her she has to do x, y, and z before she gets to watch a show or have 'couch time'. We also use Daniel Tiger songs as helpers (if she won't try a food we sing the 'try it' song), and that usually gets her to agree to at least try stuff.

I know this age is hard, and I'm glad 4 is on the horizon for us because I can tell she is getting better, and the tantrums are lessening. But when you're in it, it's so hard and you can kind of lose your sanity. I know I yell sometimes, and I always feel bad about it afterwards. They do say that whispering or talking quietly so they are forced to listen is a good way to get their attention.

Anyway, ilovebed, I hear you. It's tough. But you'll get through it, and just know you are a great mom!!

[jennlin]

I'm really sorry you are going though this phase. I wish I could give you advice but we are in the same age bracket and desk with these types of struggles as well. I will need to be taking the advice others have offered here. Hang in there, you're not alone.