One question, but when your brother and fsil are over for dinner, does your brother help clean up? If yes, then I definitely understand the feeling of being taken advantage of. If no, then it's perfectly fine for her to follow his lead as a guest. She doesn't have to help just because she's female.
I've been wondering this too, actually.
And on this front- as a GUEST, I offer to help clean up. I'm actually used to, though, being told "oh no- go sit down and enjoy yourself". When I'm the host, I would never EVER actually ask my guests to set the table or clear the table or ... whatever. They are a guest in my home - I'm not going to put them to work. (of course, I also don't show up at someone's house 4 times a week expecting to be fed!)
So, yes, OP, on some fronts, your expectations may actually be in conflict w/ hers/ her upbringing. Some are normal and yes, she sounds very rude. But some of your expectations actually may be causing HER to be put off by you.
This is all making me realize I was probably a terrible guest in my 20s I'm glad my in laws still like me, lol. I generally just shyly sit on the corner of the couch not speaking unless spoken to, expecting to be fed and not helping with cleanup. I'm pretty awkward about social cues though.
Right?
I think pretty much everyone would consider it rude to be asked straight up to help clean up, and then refuse and sulk in a corner. But because that's so obviously rude I'm guessing that's not how it actually went down. But what do I know.
Oh wow, ok now I'm just catching up more....so you're Korean and the SIL isn't?
Well that makes more sense about the birthday celebration. Yeah that's not a big thing here in the US for many people.
It's really hard joining 2 families of the same cultural background, let alone different backgrounds. I'd definitely give the SIL a little more slack in this case.
Hold up, one of your complaints is that she won't help you when she comes to your house for dinner? She is your guest. Why are you expecting her to help? Is it because she's female? I really hope that is not the case and that your dh and brother are in the kitchen helping while she sits quietly on the couch.
My MIL was 21 when she married my FIL. She is the middle girl of 12 children, and was so quiet that they forgot her at church more than once. My FIL comes from a boisterous Italian family. They are very in your face about their love and want everyone to do things their way. This was extraordinarily hard for my MIL, who I don't think handled it very well, and my FIL's family is very sensitive, and took her overwhelmedness as rudeness. My FIL is really not good at handling these types of things and I am sure made the problems worse.
My inlaws divorced at one point, and then remarried each other. The original hurt on both sides is still there and it is awful for my husband who often feels trapped in the middle. As an outsider it is so easy to see how both sides are misunderstanding each other, and so easy to see how it could be fixed, but they are stuck in a loop and it just can't be fixed.
I actually think that inviting the MOH to your mother's birthday might go a long way to rescue this situation. It would show FSIL that it is important that she be included, and that you are willing to compromise to make that happen.
If you sat down with your brother and had a truly open conversation with him about how he's feeling, how would that go over? Based on what you've written in here it seems like he has thrown out feelers to you and your conservative nature hasn't been receptive to voicing an honest opinion. And I don't mean about SIL's perceived rudeness. Take that completely off the table right now.
Does your brother feel trapped into marrying her at this point because he made the obligation and culturally, he can't back out? Is he waiting for reassurance from the family that it's ok to change his mind? A vague "follow your heart" is a cop out. A lot of these issues you're having really could be sourced at his unwillingness to help her navigate your family. He might not even know he's doing it. He just knows it's not a priority for him.
I don't mean that you should confront him and say "don't marry that hosebeast!" I mean, say that he comes across as deeply unhappy and if he wants to talk, you are there. If he wants to postpone the wedding, you support him. If he loves her and wants to marry her, you support that too. Make this about your FSIL as little as possible. I've had this conversation with a close friend before. She had been waiting for someone to tell her it was ok. I didn't dislike her XFI as a person but I disliked that they weren't a good match.
Basically I think all this talk about birthdays and dinners and greetings is a bunch of fluff masquerading the bigger issue. If she were the epitome of social graces but your brother was still telling you his subconscious wanted to call it off, would you feel any differently?
I'll admit I'm responding before reading everything.
Sometimes you don't get along with your inlaws. You don't need to be BFFs. But she is going to be in your brother's life and he loves her. So you need to respect that. Keep your boundaries, lower your expectations, pick your battles. It seems like you're searching for things to be annoyed about because you don't like her. But what's the end game here? Nobody wins if you build a case against her.
I think she sounds selfish and not personable. But some people are like that. Unless she is being horribly rude and toxic, then just accept that and act accordingly. Make sure your brother knows whats important to your family and conveys that to her.
I'd be so interested to hear her side of things. In a vacuum, her actions sound rude, but could "sulking" really be her just being shy? Maybe at this point she so uncomfortable at your family events she just shuts down? Maybe she's waiting for people to say hi to her?
I'm 100% certain she knows you guys don't like her. If I knew my SO's family felt that way about me, I wouldn't just go sit quietly on the couch, I wouldn't even go in the first place.
When I go to my husband's family events, one thing sure to make me feel like an outsider is when they all start speaking in another language. Do you guys do that around her? I feel so bad going in the kitchen when his mom and aunts are talking because they will usually switch over to English for me, but then I feel bad because it's not as natural for them. Because of this, I often don't make much of an effort to join in, and will usually go sit in the living room with his cousins.
Also, I'm just going to throw out here (my possibly flameful opinion) that it really drives me up the wall that when people act as if Americans have no "culture" and American traditions and norms are not just as valid. I think it's important to be respectful and understanding of how she grew up as well.
But maybe she is just a really awful person, and if that is the case, you guys need to just accept it at this point and let some of this stuff go.
Post by tacoflavoredkisses on May 13, 2015 8:35:56 GMT -5
Honestly, I would probably have given up trying to meet your expectations too. This situation is similar to what I experience with my ILs and the problem is no matter what I've done or what I do, i am the bad guy. I say something nice and my MIL tells people I snapped at her and was rude. I could also sit there minding my own business and not doing anything and be accused of being a bitch and giving people the silent treatment. I can't win, and it sounds like your FSIL can't either.
Honestly have any of you made an attempt to understand her? To understand what is important to her? And not the snarky "she just likes getting trashed" business. My ILs have wrong perceptions of what is important to me, but since their feelings trump mine in their minds, they don't care to try to understand.
So. Moral of my story is while I'm sure she has faults and has made missteps, I think there's also real fault on your family's side and you need to let shit go. You don't see or treat her as family, and that's going to perpetuate the problem.
Post by spaghettisquash on May 13, 2015 8:47:21 GMT -5
I'm white and married into a traditional Thai family. My husband is the firstborn son and as his wife, I've had a lot of expectations thrust on me that weren't explained by anyone (including my husband who didn't realize that they existed). Echoing a PP, but does your family speak English around her? My inlaws frequently speak in Thai, especially when around extended family and friends. As I don't understand the language, I just sit there and smile. I also wonder if they are speaking about me. If I knew they disliked me, I think I'd worry about that more.
I'm curious about the language thing too. One of the IL cousins married a caucasian guy. They talk smack about him all the time and poor guy has no idea. So so wrong.
Since they can't get away with that with me, I get treated like tacoflavoredkisses described. No matter what I do, I am always wrong. Impossible expectations.
Post by shellbear09 on May 13, 2015 9:58:52 GMT -5
I don't know why you are spending so much energy being mad at her and going over everything she does wrong. This is on your brother for being ok with bringing a person like this around his family. I don't think you are going to change her into a polite and gracious person so what is the point? I would act as nice as possible but not go out of my way for her and then get upset with how she does not act as you would like. I do agree with your feelings about her except I think too much is being made of the birthday party thing. I would let that go completely.
I agree with the language thing mentioned above. H's family would only speak english if someone was speaking directly to me. Often times MIL would just ask H things instead of talking to me. It made it really hard to feel welcomed. It's also hard to jump in and offer to do things like wash dishes or set the table when everyone else is speaking a different language. Things like that happening combined with knowing that MIL doesn't like me makes it really hard to act nice and polite.
A lot of what I would say has been covered. FSIL sounds like a piece of work, but it does not sound like your brother is doing much to expectations when it comes to marrying into a family with older, conservative, Asian parents* . Anecdote: my only other friends in the "Asian son marries non-Asian woman" category spent years pretending they were just friends and were extremely careful to make sure the parents thought well of her once they let them in on the secret and wanted to get married. And she is ... not the piece of work that your FSIL is.
But HONEY. I don't care if you're Julia Child and its Pope Fucking Francis who comes calling, no one is obligated to cook for guests 4 days a week who show up unannounced or on short notice! If you are glad to do that shit for people you don't enjoy on a regular basis, you are crazier than I thought. OF COURSE after being put upon that much, small- or medium-sized annoyances are going to be mammoth. Don't let it happen, FFS. At this point the 60th birthday scheduling conflict is a BFD because of all that's preceded it more than the actual conflict itself (which, as PPs have pointed out, 60 isnt' a big deal in many cultures. 50 and 65, yes, but 60, notsomuch).
*is this code for "doesn't want their children to marry outside their nationality"? A broader set of not exactly cosmopolitan opinions? or something else?
Post by game blouses on May 13, 2015 12:19:31 GMT -5
I married into a family with a different culture and a lot of expectations, too. If my ILs were posting about me on a message board, it would sound a lot like how you've described.
It sounds like your brother is doing what my H used to do - forcing these situations to try and make it work, but in reality no one was happy. Did you hear her say "I want to go to your sister's house for dinner?" or did he tell you that?
Before we were married DH used to drag me over to his IL's house for dinner once a week, and they clearly didn't like me, and treated me as a guest. But a weird kind of guest, where I wasn't allowed to help with dinner but was also expected to help with dinner. If your FSIL came into the kitchen and tried to help, would the story then be "She threw away all the leftovers that we'd wanted to save" or "She didn't even rinse the dishes before she put them in the dishwasher"?
Your issue shouldn't be with her but with your brother. The next time he talks about wanting to break up with her, let him know that hearing about those issues colors your opinion of her (because it does) and that it's harder to accept her if you think she's not treating him well (because it is).
I'm also interested to hear if your family speaks 100% English around her, and if your brother and husband help in the kitchen.
However, if you were asking me to cancel my bachelorette weekend to attend a series of 60th birthday celebrations or "get less drunk" on it, even though I already said I'd be at the 60th birthday party itself I'd think you were insane.
The maid of honor can come to the dinner if she pays for her own dinner. Or you can just say no, it's family only (which it sounds like it is)
she's marrying your brother so you (hopefully for them) have a whole lifetime of dealing with her, so you may as well think of ways to make it easier on yourself because getting all freaked out like this all the time is just not going to help anyone.
But HONEY. I don't care if you're Julia Child and its Pope Fucking Francis who comes calling, no one is obligated to cook for guests 4 days a week who show up unannounced or on short notice! If you are glad to do that shit for people you don't enjoy on a regular basis, you are crazier than I thought. OF COURSE after being put upon that much, small- or medium-sized annoyances are going to be mammoth. Don't let it happen, FFS. At this point the 60th birthday scheduling conflict is a BFD because of all that's preceded it more than the actual conflict itself (which, as PPs have pointed out, 60 isnt' a big deal in many cultures. 50 and 65, yes, but 60, notsomuch).
This. all of this. I really want to take you at your word that you truly LIKE hosting people at dinner. I do too. Both my DH and I like to have people over, to cook a nice meal, etc.
BUT I can tell you that it would wear on me FAST if someone showed up FOUR TIMES A FUCKING WEEK expecting a free meal w/ absolutely no notice. For A YEAR.
You say you don't mind, that this is who you are.... but .... I have to question if you're being 100% honest. even if, big picture, you love to host, I really doubt that by the end of those 52 weeks, you were still really "wheee!!!! This is my love language!!!! I love having bro and SIL over!!!!".
Really - your brother was taking advantage of you. HUGE advantage of you. I'd love to have someone else feed me and cook for me at their expense. But that's not how real adults live. I think your brother plays a much bigger role here than you want to admit. The more I read, the more I think about this - I think a lot of your anger is misdirected.
Just curious, but in your OP you said that she didn't consult your family on setting the wedding date, but your dad will be attending. Is your mom attending too?
Before things got bad? She'd say hi and go sit on the couch and text.
No, now.
It's really hard to tell if this is a situation where she is just a rude asshat or if she has never been comfortable, your brother hasn't helped her, and things have just spiraled to the point where she just feels so awkward that she is present (to appease your brother) but just avoids actively being in the moment.
I was mostly wondering whether your mom was attending, because i was thinking MAYBE thats why she's acting even worse, if she's mad your mom isn't attending the wedding. Obviously thats not the case.
FWIW, I get that the 60th is a big deal for your culture. I do think it's "good enough" that she's attending the dinner, and she shouldn't be faulted for having her bach the same weekend. Thats just a scheduling conflict and is what it is.
I do think her behavior re: not talking, offering to help (I mean, at least offer, even if you know you're going to be turned down), refusing to greet people AT ALL, let alone first, is super weird. It might be that she's just completely socially awkward, or she thinks she's so far gone from connecting with the family that she doesn't even want to try anymore. Regardless, I don't think its asking too much for her to make cordial greetings at the least.
Basically, i have no idea what I would do if I were you. I get being the fixer, and wanting everyone to like each other and get along, but it looks like that just might not happen. I think if possible, somehow get to a place where everyone can be polite, and just realize that you're not going to be close to her, and go from there.
First, yes, I think it's a good thing that you're going to try and not fix this.
Second, I am truly not trying to pile on. Please know that as I mention these few thoughts:
1- I think we all agree that a lot of what she's doing is rude. Your basic expectations of common etiquette- I think we all agree with you. But the POINT is that you can't make HER act differently. All of this has gone on long enough that if you keep expecting certain things from her - no matter how basic you think it is - YOU (and your family) are the one who's going to be upset and frustrated. Not her.
THe point really is that you can only control you, not her.
2- My brother and sister in law did not react well when they realized he would not make it to Sunday brunch the morning after and didn't know it was a bad day for him.
Please tell me you see the irony here. Please. They picked a bad weekend for your dad. In turn, he can't go to all the wedding related events. You all picked a bad weekend for your SIL. In turn,, she can't go to all the birthday related events.
Her wedding is a HUGE deal to her, just like your mom's 60th b-day is a huge deal to your mom. But yet no one is respecting either side here.
I REALLY hope you see the irony to all of this.
3- And then while we ate, she'd eat but not say anything, but I am actually cool with that cause my husband does not speak much either. It took a few months to realize this was weird. And then it got worse when my parents came into town.
When my parents first moved out here, she would do the same thing, but my parents do expect her to actually speak first. She wouldn't. When my brother spoke to her about it, she said that it's a ridiculous practice and that she's a grown adult and she's not in a relationship with them, so if they want to say hi first, then they can. So she just does not greet them from the start.
To the above, A) why is it "weird" that she didn't talk during dinner? She's probably an introvert. Was she ignoring things said directly to her? If so, yes, that's weird and rude. But if she's just sitting there and eating and listening, why is that in and of itself weird?
B) Why do your parents expect her to speak first? Is this cultural? If it is and if her response to this was that it's ridiculous, then clearly she doesn't care and doesn't want to try. And yes, I understand why this is frustrating to you all. And I also wonder why your brother is conveying this back to you all instead of talking more to her about it. I think he's only adding to the animosity here.
Oh 4) cause I answered niq on gchat but it bears saying here: while cultural differences are at play here, this is not a situation where my parents hate her cause she's white. My brother has only ever dated white girls his entire life. This is something they were aware of and it was not a surprise. There was time we thought he'd get married to this one girl, but she broke up with him.
5) And origami, I think, mentioned that there is more expectations on a future daughter in law. They rely on me for everything and don't need a daughter in law to fulfill those roles. This is not one of those Baker King Tak Goo situations or <fill in any Korean drama> with poor mother-in-law-daughter relations because the mother-in-law expects the daughter-in-law to make kimchi for 500 people overnight. Or because she wears the wrong clothes, or isn't obedient enough. My grandmother was like that, but my mom would rather just hide in her condo and pretend nothing is wrong. Lalala.
6) My parents speak only English in our homes when my husband (who is not Korean), my sister's husband, and my brother's FI are around. They pretty much speak mostly English or Konglish to us too. They have lived in the US for 35 years and are socially and academically fluent in both languages. My parents had/have zero expectations of her other than the hello bit, which I know many people are thinking I am exaggerating on, but really, I'm not.
I missed the language part, but good for your parents. My mother still doesn't speak English in front of any non-Spanish speakers who married into the family. It irritates the hell out of one of my SILs in particular.
We didn't actually pick the weekend? She planned her bacherlorette even knowing my father was born on May 15th and my mother was born on May 18th... She is actually missing my father's 63rd birthday as well, but it doesn't factor into this because it is not an important birthday. I mean, I don't see the irony in this? They didn't consult anyone when they picked a wedding date. My father is in town for 2 months for the summer and beyond that 2 weeks the rest of the year. They both know this.
It's o.k. for your dad to miss part of their wedding weekend events but it's not ok for her to miss part of your moms b-day weekend events. THAT is the irony.
You all are pissed at her for not coming to all your mom's b-day events because this is a HUGELY IMPORTANT BIRTHDAY in your culture, but yet your dad isn't going to all the events surrounding their wedding which is a HUGELY IMPORTANT EVENT to her.
This is where I agree w/ whoever said this way back- the whole "cultural" argument starts to piss me off when, for some reason, because it's American and perhaps doesn't have quite the same historical roots as other countries, stuff that's important to us just doesn't matter and gets thrown to the side.
And fine, you all didn't technically pick the weekend, but this also goes back to the fact that her MOH has VERY limited weekends and this may actually be the ONLY weekend she can come. As much as I"m trying to keep it in focus what her fault is in all this, the fact that you all clearly DO NOT like her, Im losing sympathy for your side of this. Why do you even want her there??
I think you and your mom are looking for things to be pissed off at her for and to find fault. She will never, ever, ever do right by you all. Clearly.
We didn't actually pick the weekend? She planned her bacherlorette even knowing my father was born on May 15th and my mother was born on May 18th... She is actually missing my father's 63rd birthday as well, but it doesn't factor into this because it is not an important birthday. I mean, I don't see the irony in this? They didn't consult anyone when they picked a wedding date. My father is in town for 2 months for the summer and beyond that 2 weeks the rest of the year. They both know this.
It's o.k. for your dad to miss part of their wedding weekend events but it's not ok for her to miss part of your moms b-day weekend events. THAT is the irony.
You all are pissed at her for not coming to all your mom's b-day events because this is a HUGELY IMPORTANT BIRTHDAY in your culture, but yet your dad isn't going to all the events surrounding their wedding which is a HUGELY IMPORTANT EVENT to her.
This is where I agree w/ whoever said this way back- the whole "cultural" argument starts to piss me off when, for some reason, because it's American and perhaps doesn't have quite the same historical roots as other countries, stuff that's important to us just doesn't matter and gets thrown to the side.
And fine, you all didn't technically pick the weekend, but this also goes back to the fact that her MOH has VERY limited weekends and this may actually be the ONLY weekend she can come. As much as I"m trying to keep it in focus what her fault is in all this, the fact that you all clearly DO NOT like her, Im losing sympathy for your side of this. Why do you even want her there??
I think you and your mom are looking for things to be pissed off at her for and to find fault. She will never, ever, ever do right by you all. Clearly.
The more I read, the more I agree with this. I'm guessing at this point that she comes to things because your brother wants her to but he doesn't really care how she acts. She knows you hate her but all she has to do to keep him happy with her is to be there. That's it. So she's said fuck it, because you honestly don't seem interested in getting to know her, you are interested in her complying with your culture.
You may not agree with that at all, but every single one of your responses has boiled down to you (your family) wanting her to submit entirely to your cultural expectations of her. Your brother doesn't actually seem to care if she does, but rather that he cares that drama ensues. The actions themselves are unimportant to him.
I know you've tossed the idea of giving her a cultural CTJ talk but how about trying to do things just you and her? Reach out to her, outside of all the family stuff, and just get to know her as a person. She's much more likely to come around and play nice culturally if she has a friend in the family.
ETA: The wedding date issue is squarely on you brother's shoulders here.
Let's just all agree the problem lies with my brother. Sharing things he should not with me and generally being awful at communication it would seem.
I am having trouble seeing why any of this is your problem. Her relationship with your brother is not yours to fix (although I do not understand why he is marrying her if he complains about her as much as you make it seem). Her relationship with your parents is not yours to fix.
Now, if you don't want to have her over to dinner anymore, *that* is under your control.