S/o moving internationally

[teatimefor2]

I'll write more later as I'm out, but if he applies it will weaken your negotiating position. We lived in the UK for eight years and I LOVED it.

My top issue would be visas for the whole family and moving costs plus a month in temporary accommodations whilst you find a rental property.

I'll write more during the boys naps this afternoon.

[anna7602]

I would suggest cross-posting this on the International Living board.

As I said in my response to Starry's post, I would make darned sure that you are not losing money on the deal. So, take into account differences in COL, applicable taxes (we got it in writing that our tax liability would not be higher as a result of moving), available child care/schools, and extra costs you might incur such as trips home or maintaining a home in the US, if the cost of that would be more than when you are actually living there (a rental or administrative agent fee, perhaps?). Also, make sure you are getting assistance with the visa process--not just the costs, but an actual hand-holding immigration attorney who can walk you through the process and speed things up, if necessary--and some help/guidance with looking for housing/schools. You'll also want to be clear about the kind of visa YOU need, not just your spouse, if you plan to do contract work, and make that part of the negotiation.

We've done two moves in which we rented furnished apartments completely at the company's expense. In the first case, I accepted whatever they offered because it was just me and DH (technically, it was actually just me since we weren't married yet) and my only concern was my commute to the office. The company rented an apartment for me, sight unseen, and I just showed up the day before I started the job.

In the second case, we negotiated for a higher rental budget because we had DD and wanted a larger apartment, in addition to being a reasonable distance from DH's office and from DD's school. I was also working from home and wanted to be able to set up office space in the apartment. This required doing some research on market rents for the size/location we wanted, but we were able to get the company to agree to a higher budget. We also had the company pay for a dedicated house-hunting/school-hunting trip about two months before our move. We ended up with a place we loved

[Deleted]

I'd post this on the international board.

I moved overseas with a nonprofit so there wasn't much negotiating, but help with tax prep was definitely helpful.

Good luck!

ETA: oh and a person who will guide you through the visa process for the entire family.

[anna7602]

May 19, 2015 8:33:52 GMT -5 @starry said:

The money thing would be huge for me in Western Europe. HUGE.

But money can be sliced and diced different ways, which is where the negotiations come in. You can make the same salary, but if your housing is 100% covered, you get a subsidy for school/childcare and you get some kind of transportation allowance plus some other basic costs reimbursed, you can actually come out a little bit ahead (not that I know anything about this from experience...) Of course, this all depends on what your COL is to begin with. Some moves will come with bigger sticker shock than others.  

[bananapancakes]

May 19, 2015 8:26:56 GMT -5 @vicmo said:

Get tax preparation assistance. If your H's company does the expat thing regularly, they should be able to hook you up.

So much this! I lived in Belgium for a year and Germany for a year. The tax issues were so cumbersome and cost me a lot of money!

[Deleted]

@upnorth @starrywe're just leaving the UK after four years here.

Ditto what teatimefor2 said.

Flights home once a year for the family. Not sure they would go for it if he applied for the position but it seems to be pretty common for transfers.

If you like to travel I would go for it. So many options for quick getaways in Western Europe once you are in the UK.

Are you in Canada? If you are I would research if it is a better option to become nonresident for tax purposes or stay a resident and file taxes back in Canada.

ETA: oops! tagged Starry instead of UpNorth

[UnderProtest]

May 19, 2015 8:33:52 GMT -5 @starry said:

The money thing would be huge for me in Western Europe. HUGE.

Who is the poster with B/G twins who moved to London last year? UnderProtest?

Yup, that was me.  Also RockNVoll just moved here too (tagged her since she probably doesn't visit the Moms board much).  She might actually have better suggestions as to how to negotiate.  With my husband's job, it was a take it or leave it package, no negotiating room.  But it was a good package and came with a promise of promotion so it was a no brainer 

You should consider things such as:
    a housing allowance (amount between cost here and cost in the US),
    cost of living allowances (as my H is still paid in the US in USD and we came from a fairly LCOL to a VHCOL, this was big for us),
    relocation assistance (house hunting trip, corporate apartment, moving services, etc),
    tax equalization and tax return preparation,
    tuition assistance (depending on where in the UK you are, hint, hint, London, you may not want to send your kids to the free public schools),
    home leave (paid flight to visit "home")
    home sale assistance (depending on how long you will be gone and the terms, sometimes companies will pick up real estate fees or such)
    allowance for purchase of new electronics and setting up a new home (ex. new vacuum, hair dryer, tv, fees for set up of utilities)
    visa assistance (fees, etc.)  My husband took care of all of this so all I know is that there was A LOT of paperwork and forms, plus we had to be
        fingerprinted and such.

This is all I can think of right now, but please feel free to ask any questions!

[Deleted]

Damn all these things some of you negotiated for are making me jealous lol.

I did just remember that we got money for 1 flight home per year. That was definitely a nice perk since tickets from Cape Town were so expensive. Definitely something to ask about.

[UnderProtest]

@upnorth

It's not always just for the educational aspect, some of the "inner city London" schools can be rough safety wise. Also, you have a lot more choice in locations and such with private schools. The school systems are much different over here so don't discount it just because you wouldn't send your kids to private schools in the US. My kids are in private nursery school here (preschool), but will be going to public schools when we return to the US.

Ha, on the medical insurance. I've complained about the medical stuff a ton. I would HIGHLY recommend insisting on private coverage. While the NHS does have its merits (and we are covered under NHS because of our visa status), I much prefer the private route, especially with kids and any ongoing medical issues. We had issues at first because of the way my husband's assignment was structured, but now we have global coverage. It isn't cheap, so you might need to ask for an allowance to cover it, but we have had a much better experience with private doctors. Private is more similar to the US system and easier to navigate.

[anna7602]

Tagging pittpurple because she is in Scotland.

[Cicero]

Honestly, at this point in our lives the deal breaker is the type of contract it is (which is company specific). We wouldn't move if H were going to be a local employee we only do it of its going to be an International contract.

Which basically translates into saying we won't move unless the following are provided:

Tax equalization (necessary as an American but the UK's rate is higher than the US so I doubt it would be helpful to you. Make sure you have them hiring someone to do your taxes though).

Housing allowance

Home leave

School fees

Relocation assistance.

ETA: Worldwide medical insurance

The rest of the perks we get are not deal breakers for us. These are just the biggies.

[Cicero]

Terminology and benefits vary so much from company to company. FWIW, for us housing allowance means that's how much the company will pay towards rent. You get a baseline based upon how high up you are and then they add to it if you are married and for each kid you have. It's supposed to completely cover decent housing in the location.

[badtzmaru22]

I don't have anything to add, because I haven't done it on the adult side of things, but I grew up as an expat kid in Scotland, and it was an amazing experience. We were originally on a 3-4 year assignment, and my dad ended up switching jobs a few times within the company, and we stayed nearly ten years. Good luck!!

[frlcb]

We have the possibility of moving back to the UK in the future, and there are a few things I wouldn't budge on - international contract instead of local; school tuition; relocation assistance there and back; home leave; housing allowance; and insurance. The NHS is fine, but go private if you can. Also, and I believe this has already started, but the UK is now charging anyone on a visa in the UK for using the NHS, so you pay up front when you get your visa (immigration health surcharge), I would make sure the company pays it, I believe it is £200 a year per family member.

[Cicero]

May 19, 2015 10:11:43 GMT -5 Cicero said:

Honestly, at this point in our lives the deal breaker is the type of contract it is (which is company specific). We wouldn't move if H were going to be a local employee we only do it of its going to be an International contract.

Which basically translates into saying we won't move unless the following are provided:

Tax equalization (necessary as an American but the UK's rate is higher than the US so I doubt it would be helpful to you. Make sure you have them hiring someone to do your taxes though).

Housing allowance

Home leave

School fees

Relocation assistance.

ETA: Worldwide medical insurance

The rest of the perks we get are not deal breakers for us. These are just the biggies.

ETA: Rereading this make me sound like an entitled twit. I should say we've moved without a lot of these things in the past (twice in Europe) and it worked out well for us financially. We are just in a different place in our lives now. Things have changed (mortgage, kids, health issues) and we would lose money if we were tk move without the things I listed. I think Anna's synopsis of just make sure it's not costing you to do it is a very good one.

[Deleted]

I have nothing to contribute, but it looks likely my sister will be moving to the UK in a few months. Her H is a citizen, though, so it's a different ball game.

[fbf2006]

We moved to London last year. My husband did request the transfer and got a bump in salary. We are not expats. I don't think most of what has been mentioned is needed (except tax equalization and preparation, relocation assistance, home leave). I'm assuming you'd live in a decent neighborhood with decent public schools so don't necessarily think you'll need to do private, unless the schools are oversubscribed or you really want to. I know the expat life is different though and people expect a lot with that so if you can get that, go ahead.

We do have private insurance, through both of our jobs. We currently mostly use the NHS. Our son goes to a private nursery/daycare, which we personally pay for like we would have in the US. I'm still debating what we'll do when he's 3/4 as there's a private Montessori in my neighborhood that I think I'd like him to attend.

Housing in Scotland is generally not expensive (at least compared to London), but I suppose depending on where in the US you're coming from and where in Scotland you'll be moving to, there might be a decent COL difference. Keep that in mind when including the need for housing allowance in your negotiations.

ETA: We also got a month in temporary accommodation included in our 'package.' I think that is relatively standard.

[Deleted]

I didn't read the responses, but if I could get myself a sweet international contract here is what I'd try to negotiate for: international contract (not local), schooling allowance for kids, housing allowance, paid scouting trip to find a home or at least 3 months of reserved and paid housing (hotel) until a suitable home can be rented, paid trip back home for the family once a year (plus enough vacation time to actually be able to do that!), insurance, enough money to make it worth my spouse not being able to work or a visa that would allow the spouse to work, help filing taxes, paid relocation there and back.

[Cicero]

May 19, 2015 16:04:06 GMT -5 @upnorth said:

frlcb, Cicero, @myblue- why specifically would you require an international v local contract? I'm not finding a good answer to this.

It really varies from company to company. With us a local contract will get you the following: Relocation assistance in the form of a house hunting trip, moving allowance, X number of days in a hotel until you can find a place, language lessons and visa assistance. That is pretty much it. For everything else you're just like any other local employee, which could be great but if they're asking you to move every couple of years they really shouldn't be treating you as if you are going to be a long-term local employee at that location. The cost of selling cars every couple of years, having to possibly maintain homes in two locations, becoming involved in a foreign retirement scheme that may turn out to be not advantageous to you, etc.

]ETA: for example we have an amount of cash sitting in a blocked Swiss account from the local pension scheme H had to participate in when we were local to CH. It's just sitting there earning savings account type interest because it would be a giant tax PITA to move it. had we been on an international contract back then we'd have had access to a different, more mobile investment scheme that was put together with the needs of people who move a lot and earn in several different countries over the course of their careers in mind.

[origami]

May 19, 2015 10:11:43 GMT -5 Cicero said:

Honestly, at this point in our lives the deal breaker is the type of contract it is (which is company specific). We wouldn't move if H were going to be a local employee we only do it of its going to be an International contract.

Which basically translates into saying we won't move unless the following are provided:

Tax equalization (necessary as an American but the UK's rate is higher than the US so I doubt it would be helpful to you. Make sure you have them hiring someone to do your taxes though).

Housing allowance

Home leave

School fees

Relocation assistance.

ETA: Worldwide medical insurance

The rest of the perks we get are not deal breakers for us. These are just the biggies.

I agree with this, plus a COL adjustment to his salary. All this seems typical to me for an expat package. If he'd be hired locally then you may only be offered moving expenses. That would be a deal breaker for me bc of the kids, but I know others would still accept it and have a great experience, so going local is not always a deal breaker. Out of these the absolute deal breakers would be relocation expenses, school tuition (and bus fee if that's expensive. Ours is $3k/kid), and housing allowance, but I would expect everything on the list. Tip: instead of asking for plane tickets home get a lump sum you can use to fly home...or some place better. If you get a lump sum ask that it include $ for a rental car and hotel, if you're selling yours before you move.

Other bennies that wouldn't make or break a deal but are things I've seen: bonuses and other lump sums to buy things upon arrival and repatriation, car + gas + insurance, memberships to athletic clubs, business class tickets home (mine is based on coach tix), extra PTO... I'm drawing a blank on the rest. Well language lessons but obv you wouldn't need that.

Like UnderProtest, my DH's offer was a take it or leave it package but if you can negotiate, hopefully this helps. GL!

[frlcb]

May 19, 2015 16:04:06 GMT -5 @upnorth said:

frlcb, Cicero, @myblue- why specifically would you require an international v local contract? I'm not finding a good answer to this.

With my husbands company if you are on a local contract you are not treated as an expat, which is a much more lucrative deal. Plus as others have said you get less help with things if you are local.

[origami]

Oh I completely forgot, but frlcb reminded me. We have a relocation company we can call to help with random issues while we are here, like dealing with the landlord, getting phones, home utilities, etc. I don't know if that's necessary in the UK though. We need it for sure because we live in a non-English speaking country, but it's useful to be able to ask questions. Just thought I'd mention it because we would not have this if we were on a local contract.

[Deleted]

May 19, 2015 16:04:06 GMT -5 @upnorth said:

frlcb, Cicero, @myblue- why specifically would you require an international v local contract? I'm not finding a good answer to this.

I wouldn't require an international contract for a place where we plan on living for several years, but if I have to uproot my family again in two years, I want to enjoy the perks! International contracts are also better if you are moving to a place where you don't speak the language because you might be able to negotiate private international school for the kids and language lessons for the whole family. That isn't a big deal for OP who is moving to the UK, but it is always a plus to have the international contract! I know families though that switch to local contracts when their international one was over.

[pittpurple]

May 19, 2015 10:25:56 GMT -5 badtzmaru22 said:

I don't have anything to add, because I haven't done it on the adult side of things, but I grew up as an expat kid in Scotland, and it was an amazing experience. We were originally on a 3-4 year assignment, and my dad ended up switching jobs a few times within the company, and we stayed nearly ten years. Good luck!!

Sooo happy to see this. We are 9 years into our life in Scotland (after moving here on a 3 year contract!) and it looks like our daughter will be growing up here. Am so happy to see a good story from a 3rd culture kid!

[pittpurple]

May 19, 2015 11:28:37 GMT -5 jamaicam said:

May 19, 2015 11:18:38 GMT -5 @upnorth said:

frlcb & Cicero-thanks, this is exactly what I needed! Cicero, I don't think that sounds bratty-that Is really similar to what it would take for us to move. I mean, the experience would be fun but not at a financial loss!

jamaicam- the facility is in Dumferline so 15 miles from Edinburgh-is that close enough that schools wouldn't be terrible-if you know! Thanks for the tip on NHS.

The website  www.educationscotland.gov.uk/ has the official government reports on primary schools across Scotland. If you have some idea of the area you are moving into, then you would be able to look at the local schools through that site. 

goodschoolsguide.co.uk/ would be another place to start. 

I live in Edinburgh!

Anecdotally, I've heard the schools are much better outside of Edinburgh - nicer spaces, smaller classes, etc. There are neighbourhoods you'd definitely want to avoid in Edinburgh but the smaller cities can be much nicer. If it actually happens, I can ask around for information - I have a few friends from Dunfermline.

We are in a very different situation as we self-moved - my DH found a job and we did everything ourselves and just came over. We have settled down here and bought a house and have British citizenship now so we are just Scottish I guess! We never had any perks or help, though DH's work did pay for our first round of visas and flew us out here to start.

The UK has just gotten really strict about immigration and have added a lot of fees so I'd make sure all of that is covered.

Private health insurance - that's up to you and what financial situation you're in. We just use the NHS and while it's not perfect, I didn't have insurance at all for a while in the states so it seems amazing to me. It's really an incredible situation to spend 5 days in hospital with your daughter and leave without a bill of any sort so I don't think private insurance is 'necessary' but probably quite nice - the waiting times for non-emergency situations can be quite long and you do have to pay a bit for dental care (like $50 a visit maybe?). Care for children is absolutely great and if you are at all considering having a baby, it's a great place to do that - a lot of the NHS money goes to pre/post partum care.

Edinburgh is the 2nd most expensive city in the UK but doesn't compare with say NYC or Tokyo. Dunfermline will be totally different - check out listings online to see what you'd be paying and consider the car issue. It's totally possible to live car free in Edinburgh (we did for 8 years) but I'm not sure how easy that is in Dunfermline. You'd be able to drive on your US license for a year but you'd need to get your UK license - it's notoriously difficult to pass the test (33% pass on the 1st try!) so if you're in a strong bargaining position, driving lessons/car might be part of the conversation. It was about £500 ($750 ish) for me to get my license for lessons and the test.

Feel free to page me if you have any more Scotland specific questions - I can defintiely help with that but am no help in negotiating, we've never been that lucky!

[frlcb]

May 20, 2015 0:59:05 GMT -5 @myblue said:

May 19, 2015 16:04:06 GMT -5 @upnorth said:

frlcb, Cicero, @myblue- why specifically would you require an international v local contract? I'm not finding a good answer to this.

I wouldn't require an international contract for a place where we plan on living for several years, but if I have to uproot my family again in two years, I want to enjoy the perks! International contracts are also better if you are moving to a place where you don't speak the language because you might be able to negotiate private international school for the kids and language lessons for the whole family. That isn't a big deal for OP who is moving to the UK, but it is always a plus to have the international contract! I know families though that switch to local contracts when their international one was over.

I think the school thing is a personal thing - even if we move back to the UK (and my husband is from the UK) we want to do an American school, because we want to move back to the U.S., and there is enough difference between the two systems that even though the language is the same we want to stick with the U.S. system. For some that wouldn't matter. You lose a lot of the expat perks if you take a local contract.