Punishment question

[teatimefor2]

When did you start with punishments?

DS1, 2 year 8 months, was outside finger painting with me whilst the baby was sleeping. We were having a lot of fun.

I told him we could finger paint as long as he listened to mommy. I told him several times not to touch his face/hair. I don't care about the rest of him. He three to me and put his hands all over his hair. I was so angry, he knew when he was doing. I told him he wasn't listening and painting was over and he had to take a bath.

After the bath, we've talked and I told him since he wasn't able to show mommy he could listen that we were not going to play he the sand table today as a result of his actions.

We have issues with him keeping the sand into table and throwing sand. So listening issues there too.

When is you start punishments? I'm trying to have them be more natural consequences. He was going to play with the sand after painting so that seems like he would understand the relationship.

Thoughts please? DH thinks he is still to young, but he defiantly knows what he is going. He told me he doesn't end to listen?

I am fearful of the threes.

[erbear]

I think if you're painting with a 2 year old, paint in the hair and on the face is kind of a given. I would not punish him for that, but I wouldn't have made that "rule". Sand table punishment isn't a logical consequence, so that wouldn't work well for my kids. If he's throwing sand, then sand table is closed for the afternoon.

I find the best way to deal with my kids is to outline what I want and don't want ahead of time. "We can play at the sand table, but if you throw sand, then we can't play." Then stick to it. Consistency over time.

[Deleted]

I started early. Even if my 15 month old gets some sort of punishment. (A short time out, my physically moving him away, a stern no, etc. etc.).

DD now at almost 4 gets time out, time to regroup in her room if need be or something taken away.

I also try to incorporate some of the positive discipline and natural consequence stuff. It works better than a lot of things.

I still with both kids choose my battles. Some things are age appropriate reactions. Still doesn't mean it should go unnoticed. We talk a lot in those situations/do a ton of explaining. It works esp. on DD who likes a lot of explaining.  

I've also learned not to set myself up for failure nor set my kids up for failure. I put them in situations with clear directions, don't tell them things they're not capable of etc. So in your situation I'd would not even bothered to tell him not to touch his hair. A) My kids would have never even thought of it unless I brought it up or B) I've come to realize certain things/activities are going to be a huge disaster no matter what so I'm not going to get them out unless I"m fully prepared for the mess, kwim?

Punishments also need be fairly immediate and related around here. So if it was a paint issue I'd say, "no paint tomorrow/for a week/whatever." If DS throws something, it goes on top of the fridge for whatever amount of time I determine. 

Being mean to a sibling is a time out and separation from each other (They're currently in a love/hate phase. Can't stand it together/can't stand it apart) followed with hugs.

[karinothing]

Too young. If he gets finger paint in his hair (which honestly is something kids do, DS is 3.5 and still gets paint on himself, they are kids after all) then you just end the activity and wash him up. No reason to get mad. And kids throw sand, it is fun to throw sand. he isn't doing it to be purposely defiant. I promise.

[mainelyfoolish]

He knows what he is doing, but he is too young for the executive part of his brain to be able to stop his impulsive actions. You don't have to allow him to continue to misbehave and if you're too frustrated to allow the sand table after the painting incident, I think that's fine, but I don't think he's going to understand that he lost the sand play because he put paint in his hair.

[teatimefor2]

I only said now hair when he started touching his face. We finger paint a lot, but lately he's not listening. Then I said please don't touch your hair and face. He rolled his hands in all the paint, turned to me and planted his hands on his head.

Maybe painting ending was enough, but although he is little he can learn.

We are running into town, so I will be back later.

With the sand, it was our next activity and he knew that. But made since to me to explain that since he didn't demonstrate good listen skills, we are not going to play in the sand box today.

Sigh, parenting is tough.

[Deleted]

It is tough, I'm sorry. Boundary pushing toddlers are exhausting.

[bugandbibs]

Frankly, I think your expectations are too high.

That said, even my 15 month old has consequences. Examples of things that have happened in my house this week. DD1 tried to sneak her tablet over to a friend's house after I told her no. I took her tablet away for the weekend. DD2 hit DD1 when she didn't get her way. Automatic time out and apology to DD1. DS bite me. I told him we don't bite and sat him down away from me.

We start time out at 2 years old. I try to make consequence directly relate to the action and then let it go. Staying mad/annoyed doesn't help. I usually give warnings "this is your warning, next time you do that (consequence)" "this is your warning, brush your teeth or no story tonight".

[imojoebunny]

I don't know if punishment is where I would go with this, but I think he is absolutely old enough to end an activity, if he cannot follow the rules. I don't think the rule of not getting paint all over your face is out of the realm of a 2.5 year old, but it might not be much fun for some kids.

If your child pushes boundaries a lot, look for ways to help him succeed, without you pulling your hair out. Sometimes things, like giving a kid a bucket of water and a paint brush and having them paint with water on the driveway are more fun than using materials that make a big mess and don't hold there attention for long. My kids liked to make trails in the yard with flour at that age, and have me follow them when they were done. Easy, simple to clean up. My point is that I find it a lot less frustrating when the activity does not create unnecessary rules or restrictions. Kids like lots of things, so no need to do those things that they don't want to do in an acceptable way.

[laurack]

I wouldn't punish beyond stopping the fun activity.

In general I pick my battles but yes things do get punishments (she turned 3 a month ago). Running away from me in a parking lot. Hitting her brother. Hitting us. Biting/kicking etc.

time out. (not super effective but good for us to have a breather)
removal of privileges (her TV basically. she doesn't really care about toys. Also fun things like playground visits)

the punishment has to be very close to the time of the incident though. I mean, I'm not taking away the party she's going to in a week because she hit her brother today etc.

[Deleted]

I don't think you can expect paint won't get in hair or on face but beyond that, I think the fact that painting was then over and he had a bath was enough "punishment"

For example, if J isnt playing nicely with the blocks for example and is throwing or something, we can no longer play with the blocks. He then has to clean them up and find something else to do.

I don't see the connection to the sand table so I don't think that's appropriate. He won't understand that point. The only time I have a consequence be something that occurs later is in the instance of time. For example, if J is messing around and won't get into the bath at night there won't be enough time to read all of the books he wants to read at night. So if he is messing around we tell him - J, if you dotn get into the bath now there won't be time to read x books, you are wasting book time now etc. That he understands.

But we really try to practice positive discipline so we don't really punish.

[teatimefor2]

Thanks all. If he wants to play in the sand after nap, he can. I try to redirect and up until recently not listen was never an issue.

Lol- to @awinter, the bath was more a reward than punishment. He's a fish and was thrilled he turned the water blue!

My bigger fear is I'm alone with both boys most days all day. I NEED him to listen especially if we plan to keep going to the park, pool, special events.

Thanks for the feedback ladies. Parenting needs a manual?.

PS... Yes I realise listening about the pool is in a completely different level than about paint!

[satsuma]

Natural consequences are those that don't require any follow up from you such as getting cold from not wearing a coat. I agree that in this case the logical consequence of not following the rules with paint is to put the paint away, not take away sand table time. Also, DS sometimes gets in adversarial moods so I try to remain as emotionless as possible about the behavior even if I'm pissed off. It sounds like your son was looking for a reaction from you with the smiling and doing it again. Putting the paint away should be seen as stemming from a choice he made and not because mommy is mad.

[dcn]

For the painting, I would have just ended the activity. No further punishment needed at that age I don't think. After a warning, I would have said "since you didn't follow the rules we have to put the paint away. We can try again tomorrow." Ds pushes my buttons like that all the time, but really he wants a reaction out of me. So the more calm I remain, the better.

I recently started taking away his ipad/tv privileges for not listening/cooperating in the parking lot and car after daycare and it made an immediate impact. I wasn't sure if he was too young to "get" the delayed punishment, but the following day when we talked about why he didn't get to watch his show the day before, he got it. I was pretty surprised, but I guess he really loves to watch Curious George!

[Deleted]

We do positive discipline, so we don't specifically use punishments or rewards. I have still never punished my almost 5 year old.

That said we do have consequences, and I am very very big on knowing what behaviors are age appropriate. Two and three year olds have behaviors that often look like deliberate defiance but they aren't--at least not in the sense that an adult would be deliberately defiant, i.e. "I am going to do what Mom said not to do strictly because I know it will piss her off." These behaviors happen for a number of reasons--two and three year olds lack impulse control and literally cannot stop themselves from doing the behavior; they are testing you to see if you will follow through on enforcing a rule; they are experimenting to see what it will feel like. In his mind it's possible that as soon as you said "no paint in the hair," he thought "oh wow! I wonder what paint in my hair would feel like?" and then acted on the uncontrollable impulse. It looks like deliberate defiance but it's not. (It is no less frustrating to you as a parent though, I know!)

I like Positive Discipline: The First Three Years and Positive Discipline for Preschoolers to give some background on what is age appropriate for toddlers and young preschoolers. It is so helpful with my parenting to be able to take a deep breath and remind myself that as frustrating as my kids can be, at least they are not trying to make me mad.

So, I don't do unrelated punishments or rewards but I do have consequences. I try to spell them out in advance--"If you put paint in your hair, painting time will be over and we will need to go straight to the bath." (Though as a PP said I would not make this rule personally--when they paint I sort of expect paint everywhere and I am prepared to deal with it.) Maybe, because you had to take an unexpected bath, now there is not enough time to play in the sand table after all so you have to skip that activity. That sort of thing.

As far as times when you NEED him to listen to you because he may be in danger--I know this is a real issue. I handle it with my kids by making sure they are not in situations where I won't be able to keep them safe in their moments of poor impulse control. It's easier for me because my kids are 3 years apart and my oldest is very sensible, so I can devote most of my attention to my kamikaze toddler in parks etc., but in situations where I need to be on top of both of them, I keep DD2 in a stroller or otherwise confined so she's safe. I definitely understand needing kids to listen for their own safety, but in my experience it is just not something you can teach to a two, three, even sometimes four and five year old, via punishments or any other method. It is developmental.

[auntie]

It's a tough age.

He doesn't have the bandwidth to make sensible choices in the moment. The executive function someone else already mentioned. 

I try to look at discipline from a more proactive/teaching position than reactive punishment. For this infraction, a natural/logical consequence makes more sense because it gives him learn from what he did. He hasn't demonstrated compliance around follow directions with paint (not sure they were age appropriate either), so he doesn't get to paint for a few weeks or until he's in a more cooperative mindset. There is no logic to removal of sandtable time unless he violates the rules around that.

Keep discussions of this simple. A child this age doesn't have the auditory processing skills to hang in there with a long winded explanation of why what he did was wrong and why he's not getting to paint/play with sand. It's like the adults in the old Peanuts specials. He'll be hearing wha, wha, wha.

[Deleted]

page said it well, as she does. I try to follow a similar parenting philosophy.

Don't go looking for a fight with a toddler. You did. You found one. It will always be there if you set your relationship up to look for it. Setting up the adversarial parent/child relationship (i.e. he should LISTEN) is going to be exhausting for everyone.

We do have consequences. I am in charge. I just don't make rules that are doomed to be broken, as I don't want to enforce them.

[game blouses]

May 27, 2015 14:22:53 GMT -5 @tokenhoser said:

page said it well, as she does. I try to follow a similar parenting philosophy.

Don't go looking for a fight with a toddler. You did. You found one. It will always be there if you set your relationship up to look for it. Setting up the adversarial parent/child relationship (i.e. he should LISTEN) is going to be exhausting for everyone.

We do have consequences. I am in charge. I just don't make rules that are doomed to be broken, as I don't want to enforce them.

I agree with every word of this. It's easy for me to say now that DS is out of that impulsive stage (mostly, lol) but even though it seems like they're trying to test you, they literally cannot control their impulses at that stage.

I try to do more positive reinforcement and natural consequences than punishments. Punishments just piss him off and make him frustrated, and then he has to try that behavior like 100 more times to guarantee that the punishment is consistent.

He used to constantly turn the light switches on and off, and I would get furious at him and that just made him do it more. So then I'd give him a sticker to put on a chart for every day he didn't touch the light switch. After he got 10 he got to earn a toy (My Little Pony!). It helped him to learn to control his impulses, but really it was just getting older that helped.

[Deleted]

Disclaimer - I only have a 21 month old and lose my patience more than I'd like. However, I know a lot about brain research and motivation/behavior.

The brain cannot process a "don't". When you tell someone (or yourself) not to xyz, their primitive brain starts thinking about it. Children under a certain age don't have the ability to logically process information. So in this circumstance what you could try instead of saying "don't put your fingers in your hair" is a directive of what to do i.e., "please keep your fingers on the paper when you are using paint".

It does seem like toddlers deliberately defy authority because of their mannerisms but it's probably often enough that they are simply overjoyed and know they are doing something "wrong" but physically can't help themselves. Drunk me on a diet is a toddler. I know I shouldn't be eating nachos but they are sitting in front of me and they look sooo good.