toddler sibling aggression - is this normal

[thumper55]

DS is 4.5, DD is 2.5

in general, DS is very high energy, defiant, and aggressive, and strong willed. Aside from him picking on DD, I often have a hard time with him myself. I am worried that he will end up really hurting my DD

He is always seeking negative attention and picking on DD to make her cry
for example, he will yank her (highly cherished) blanket away, grab drinks or food out of her hands, knocks things out of her hands, swat her head while running by, kick her while she is laying on the ground watching tv, etc. He will randomly pinch her and will spit on her. I often ask him "why did you do "x" to her" . He says picks on her because he doesn't love her.

He does all of this unprovoked . What really scared me into posting here is this:

(background info, DS has nerf swords) one day when he was picking on her, and I asked him why are you being mean to her when she didn't do anything to you? He answered, "I want to cut her with a real sword" I remained calm and asked him why. He said "I don't love her". I said "even if you don't love someone, it doesn't mean its ok for you to hurt them".

This happened about a month ago, but it has been on my mind since then. He has never done any real physical harm to DD, other than being mean and annoying. He often tells me that he doesn't love DD

I think I want to talk to my ped about this and see what she says. DH thinks its normal sibling behavior.

[nevafaye]

Not a parent disclaimer but do work with kids and mental health issues.

Does he get a lot of individual attention? Did he have negative/mean thoughts before DD (granted, he probably wasn't old enough to communicate well). Does he have dedicated Bobby and Mommy and Bobby and Daddy time? It sounds a lot like jealousy.

I would definitely talk to your ped about it. The earlier you can deal with issues the better.

[LauraMoser]

He sounds like my cousin's almost 4 yo. He pushes and hits his brother completely unprovoked. Little brother is 9.5 mo. The poor little brother can just look at the older brother and end up knocked over/kicked/hit.

I don't know whether its normal or not, as I have DDs and have not dealt with this issue in my own kids. I *myself* tend to believe its not quite normal, but again, I have no first hand experience with boys.

Have you brought it up with the pedi?

[who22]

I swear that was my brother and I when we were kids. We fought EVERY day. He would just walk past me and hit/kick me when it was my turn to do dishes, come into my room and jump on me when I was trying to sleep, etc. just to be as obnoxious (sp?) as he could. Some of it was because he had ADD/ADHD (and maybe his medication wasn't working/he didn't take it) but I think most was because he was jealous. I was an easier child so I think I got more "treats" and "better presents" (which I did, but I didn't destroy my gifts). I've always been daddy's little girl and mom spent a lot of time with me because I danced. That's not to say that he didn't get any one on one time with my parents because he did. He played sports and they'd go to practices and games.
I'm not a parent but they didn't do him any favors by not disciplining him as much as (I think) he needed. He definitely pushed as he got older and my parents didn't know how to deal with it. You're going to want to keep on top of this. Definitely talk to your ped.

[liveintheville]

We've really stressed that his role is to take care of and help his little brother. I'm not sure that's what did it, but they get along for now.

He helps get his brother water brush his teeth read books find his loveys, etc. giving him big brother type duties seems to make him feel protective and proud of kid 2 and himself.

[Deleted]

What are the consequences for him when he does things like that? You posted that you ask why he did something, and he responds, but does he just keep playing after that?

[pugz]

also curious what the consequences are for him.

[drloretta]

IMO he is too young to know or articulate why he does something. Younger kids can't be expected to make a critical analysis of why they do something.

On some level it is pretty normal, but I'd get to the root of the "I don't love her" thing. Is that his way of saying he's jealous, but can't articulate it? Does he just not like her and that's how he tells you?

And I'd also like to know what you do when he does this.

It may also be a matter of doing more positive parenting (note that I'm not criticizing your parenting, I'm just talking about a parenting style) that emphasizes positive attention for him so he wants that kind instead of the negative kind. Even simple things like, "If you leave your sister alone while we go to the store, you can pick out a book to read" sort of thing. Ignore this if you've tried that and it failed.

A pedi eval would be a great idea as well.

[6fsn]

I'd talk to the pedi and also make sure your son is getting consequences to those actions and positive attention for good acts. On some level I do think it's how kids play, but it also sounds like you are concerned so it may be going to far.

[brit1017]

My DS and DD are the same ages as yours. They can be very aggressive with each other- some days it seems like they go pick on the other one just b/c they are bored. Some days I feel like I spend the whole day putting kids in timeouts. DS has also said that he doesn't love DD, he only likes boys.

That said, they can play nicely, at least for short periods of time. There are days where they really seem to enjoy each other's company. DS is at my parents' house this week going to camp (2 hours away). DD literally asks about him every 15 minutes. The first thing DS asks every night when I talk to him is how DD is doing. I think that fighting is normal at this age, though it can't hurt to run it by your pedi.

[cookiemdough]

I have a 4.5 year old and he is not aggressive like that. Do we think it is normal because kids are supposed to be more aggressive towards siblings? I am an only child so I am genuinely curious. In general, if he were to treat any of his cousins or friends like that he would get a timeout or some sort of punishment. If he doesn't have a consequence outside of asking why he did something, he is not likely to change the behavior.

[noonecareswhoiam]

Do not worry that your kid is going to be a psycho. It's normal.

My DS#1 would tell me to put his little brother in his room and close the door. He still blames all of his problems on his little brother. Sometimes he even threatens to kill him. He's 7--he doesn't really get what dead means. He's angry and he's jealous, and we still have to help him find the vocabulary to express his emotions. Obviously, we also have to help him deal with those emotions in a more constructive manner.

I don't think punishment is necessarily the best way. I don't want to punish my child for his feelings. We do punish for behaviors (hitting, etc).

[tardyfortheparty]

DS is 3.5 and is sometimes rough with DD but generally says he is trying to "hug" her, he always gives her kisses, etc and ee talk about how his job is to always watch out for & take care of his sister. He goes to timeout when he is too rough with her. Horseplay & roughhousing are "normal", but the verbalizing wanting to hurt her are cincerning & I would talk to the Pediatrcian ASAP.

[evynsmama]

Consquences and follow through are so important. Time outs, taking away toys, etc. At 4 he'll make the connection really quick. Just asking him why isn't really doing anything to change the behavior and your younger child is just seeing that he can get away with hurting her.

[cookiemdough]

Also is he aggressive with his friends or at school?

[vanillacourage]

Is he getting enough attention from you when he's NOT acting out? Sometimes kids do stuff because any attention, even negative, is better than none. Not saying you're a neglectful parent at ALL - just saying he might be having a hard time with having to (understandably) split your attention, even this long after your DD came around.

[drloretta]

Also, did he do this before his sister came along?

[thumper55]

Aug 15, 2012 10:11:50 GMT -5 nevafaye said:

Does he get a lot of individual attention? Did he have negative/mean thoughts before DD (granted, he probably wasn't old enough to communicate well). Does he have dedicated Bobby and Mommy and Bobby and Daddy time? It sounds a lot like jealousy.

I would definitely talk to your ped about it. The earlier you can deal with issues the better.

yes he gets individual attention. he has been in seasonal team sports since age 2 (t-ball, basketball, etc). sometimes DH will be the team coach, so they spend time "practicing" . Currently, DH and DS will go golfing or see a movie on weekends; they will be gone for 2 or 3 hours. . As for myself, when dd is sleeping, I'll ask DS if he wants to hang out with mommy. We run errands together and sometimes gets treats together. he also has some toys that we don't make him share. We tell him he can play with them when DD is sleeping. I also read him a story and snuggle with to put him to bed every night.

[thumper55]

Aug 15, 2012 10:32:06 GMT -5 flygirl said:

What are the consequences for him when he does things like that? You posted that you ask why he did something, and he responds, but does he just keep playing after that?

I send him to be by himself in another room and say "if you can't be nice with people, you're going to have be yourself" He sits in another room for a few minutes until I tell him he can come out.

if he uses a toy inappropriately (by hitting or throwing), the toy is taken away until the next day

there has been times where I have thrown the toy in the garbage as a consequence telling him that since he misbehaved with the toy, he doesn't get the toy anymore. there was a time when he keep throwing a ball at DD. I let him know he was going to lose the ball if he kept it up. He threw it again, so I let the air out of the ball and threw it in th garbage

[thumper55]

Aug 15, 2012 10:38:14 GMT -5 @peggyolson said:

Not-yet-a-parent chiming in, but it sounds like he needs more consequences than asking him why he is doing a certain behavior.

If you wouldn't let a random kid at the playground treat your DD that way, why would you be okay with your DS doing it?

I didn't know how to react when he said "because I don't love her"

there are consequences for bad behavior that I didn't go into. but he doesn't seem to care about any of them.

[thumper55]

Aug 15, 2012 12:08:57 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Also is he aggressive with his friends or at school?

they will try to play shooting games at preschool. (makes a gun with their fingers) or good guys vs. bad guys. However this sort of play is not allowed and the teachers will end it when then catch it. Sometimes they push and shove each other in play (and the teachers will end it), but I feel he is pretty normal with his friends at school

[vanillacourage]

Aug 15, 2012 13:42:21 GMT -5 thumper55 said:

Aug 15, 2012 10:11:50 GMT -5 nevafaye said:

Does he get a lot of individual attention? Did he have negative/mean thoughts before DD (granted, he probably wasn't old enough to communicate well). Does he have dedicated Bobby and Mommy and Bobby and Daddy time? It sounds a lot like jealousy.

I would definitely talk to your ped about it. The earlier you can deal with issues the better.

yes he gets individual attention. he has been in seasonal team sports since age 2 (t-ball, basketball, etc). sometimes DH will be the team coach, so they spend time "practicing" . Currently, DH and DS will go golfing or see a movie on weekends; they will be gone for 2 or 3 hours. . As for myself, when dd is sleeping, I'll ask DS if he wants to hang out with mommy. We run errands together and sometimes gets treats together. he also has some toys that we don't make him share. We tell him he can play with them when DD is sleeping. I also read him a story and snuggle with to put him to bed every night.

So he gets time alone with mommy....when his sister is sleeping.
And he gets to play with his favorite toys....when his sister is sleeping.

I know I'm simplifying things, but it's not a huge jump to see why he might prefer it when she's not around. He needs to get time alone with you, and your full attention, when it's not just that you're freed up because the youngest one doesn't happen to need you at that exact moment.

[Ashley&Scott]

Aug 15, 2012 14:28:05 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

Aug 15, 2012 13:42:21 GMT -5 thumper55 said:

yes he gets individual attention. he has been in seasonal team sports since age 2 (t-ball, basketball, etc). sometimes DH will be the team coach, so they spend time "practicing" . Currently, DH and DS will go golfing or see a movie on weekends; they will be gone for 2 or 3 hours. . As for myself, when dd is sleeping, I'll ask DS if he wants to hang out with mommy. We run errands together and sometimes gets treats together. he also has some toys that we don't make him share. We tell him he can play with them when DD is sleeping. I also read him a story and snuggle with to put him to bed every night.

So he gets time alone with mommy....when his sister is sleeping.
And he gets to play with his favorite toys....when his sister is sleeping.

I know I'm simplifying things, but it's not a huge jump to see why he might prefer it when she's not around. He needs to get time alone with you, and your full attention, when it's not just that you're freed up because the youngest one doesn't happen to need you at that exact moment.

Ditto Vanilla. I had noticed that pattern too but hadn't had time to respond yet.

[thumper55]

Aug 15, 2012 14:28:05 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

Aug 15, 2012 13:42:21 GMT -5 thumper55 said:

yes he gets individual attention. he has been in seasonal team sports since age 2 (t-ball, basketball, etc). sometimes DH will be the team coach, so they spend time "practicing" . Currently, DH and DS will go golfing or see a movie on weekends; they will be gone for 2 or 3 hours. . As for myself, when dd is sleeping, I'll ask DS if he wants to hang out with mommy. We run errands together and sometimes gets treats together. he also has some toys that we don't make him share. We tell him he can play with them when DD is sleeping. I also read him a story and snuggle with to put him to bed every night.

So he gets time alone with mommy....when his sister is sleeping.
And he gets to play with his favorite toys....when his sister is sleeping.

I know I'm simplifying things, but it's not a huge jump to see why he might prefer it when she's not around. He needs to get time alone with you, and your full attention, when it's not just that you're freed up because the youngest one doesn't happen to need you at that exact moment.

no snark - what do you do when you have two kids at the same time?

[gbck]

Aug 15, 2012 14:28:05 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

Aug 15, 2012 13:42:21 GMT -5 thumper55 said:

yes he gets individual attention. he has been in seasonal team sports since age 2 (t-ball, basketball, etc). sometimes DH will be the team coach, so they spend time "practicing" . Currently, DH and DS will go golfing or see a movie on weekends; they will be gone for 2 or 3 hours. . As for myself, when dd is sleeping, I'll ask DS if he wants to hang out with mommy. We run errands together and sometimes gets treats together. he also has some toys that we don't make him share. We tell him he can play with them when DD is sleeping. I also read him a story and snuggle with to put him to bed every night.

So he gets time alone with mommy....when his sister is sleeping.
And he gets to play with his favorite toys....when his sister is sleeping.

I know I'm simplifying things, but it's not a huge jump to see why he might prefer it when she's not around. He needs to get time alone with you, and your full attention, when it's not just that you're freed up because the youngest one doesn't happen to need you at that exact moment.

This is what I was thinking.
I've never been there, but I know when exploring kids and pets, we were told NOT to reserve 'special treats/fun/attention' for when the baby isn't in the room, or dog associates baby w/ none of those things, alone w/all those things.

Sooo...what does he LIKE that baby can be involved in too? Reading w/ both on the lap? her playing elsewhere while he gets attention?

[pitterwoo]

I don't think it's really normal for your kid or the other one in the comments with the 7 year old that blames the younger one for all his problems. I'm not going to pretend that I have the answers, but I hope you have luck getting him to change his attitude about his sister since they are still so little.

My college room mate had an older sister who pretty much always tormented her out of jealousy of not being the only child anymore. She would hit her and pinch her and try to get her in trouble, etc. She also told me of a time when her sister covered her face with a pillow and sat on her...basically tried to kill her. She may not have understood what it would mean, but she really didn't like having the younger sister around.

[liveintheville]

Aug 15, 2012 14:55:36 GMT -5 gbck said:

I've never been there, but I know when exploring kids and pets, we were told NOT to reserve 'special treats/fun/attention' for when the baby isn't in the room, or dog associates baby w/ none of those things, alone w/all those things.

There might be something to this. Just like we had kid 1 feed the pets to make them associate him with good things, we praise and reward Kid 1 for playing with and teaching his brother things.

[vanillacourage]

Aug 15, 2012 14:48:08 GMT -5 thumper55 said:

Aug 15, 2012 14:28:05 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

So he gets time alone with mommy....when his sister is sleeping.
And he gets to play with his favorite toys....when his sister is sleeping.

I know I'm simplifying things, but it's not a huge jump to see why he might prefer it when she's not around. He needs to get time alone with you, and your full attention, when it's not just that you're freed up because the youngest one doesn't happen to need you at that exact moment.

no snark - what do you do when you have two kids at the same time?

Well, right now I have it easy because DS2 is still a novelty, and not mobile. And also, the kids are in school (so DS1 gets plenty of outside stimulation) and my DH works a regular workweek and is usually around to help. So, I am totally not trying to throw stones, I will probably be asking for advice along the same lines as you in a couple months.

That said - I will try to play with the kids together rather than making DS1 wait until DS2 doesn't need anything. DS1 and I play Candyland on the floor while DS2 chills on a blanket nearby. If DS2 needs to be changed we'll go to the changing table together, DS1 will tickle his tummy while I change the diaper and I praise him helping, etc. We go for walks together. DH will stay home with the baby while I take DS1 to a baseball game. Etc.

[Willis Jackson]

Aug 15, 2012 15:10:24 GMT -5 pitterwoo said:

I don't think it's really normal for your kid or the other one in the comments with the 7 year old that blames the younger one for all his problems. I'm not going to pretend that I have the answers, but I hope you have luck getting him to change his attitude about his sister since they are still so little.

My college room mate had an older sister who pretty much always tormented her out of jealousy of not being the only child anymore. She would hit her and pinch her and try to get her in trouble, etc. She also told me of a time when her sister covered her face with a pillow and sat on her...basically tried to kill her. She may not have understood what it would mean, but she really didn't like having the younger sister around.

I have 3 older brothers and this was pretty much a daily occurrence in our house growing up, lol. None of us is a psychopath.

OP, it sounds to me that he's having a hard time adjusting to something. Maybe DD is turning into more of a kid and less of a baby and is cramping his style in new ways? How is his behavior when you have one-on-one time with him? Is he being a jerk in general or only with your DD?

[pitterwoo]

she was trying to kill her, just sayin'. Their relationship has always had and has to this day this undercurrent.

I just think that OPs kid probably has jealousy and issues adjusting to the little sister. I think that she's smart that she's trying to find ways to remedy the situation because otherwise I think it could become a permanent facet of the way he perceives his little sister.