I don't think he ever *did* say that. It was assumed when he came back from war with an infant and said it was his blood. He didn't lie, but he also didn't clear up the confusion.
I always thought it was very significant back in season 1, when Ned and Jon part ways and Jon going to the wall and Ned going to King’s Landing, He says “The next time I see you, I’ll tell you about your mother” Also Ned’s character is probably the most honorable of them all and people were surprised that Ned even had a bastard.
Even if Dany offers her dragons and joins them, Jon's claim to the throne is stronger if there is proof Rhaeger wed Lyanna.
There is a lot of King foreshadowing in the books for Jon.
Well, the thing is in A World of Ice and Fire it is said that the Mad King names Viserys his heir even though Aegon & Rhaenys are still alive. (Unsurprising, since when he met his granddaughter he claimed that she "smelled Dornish.") If Viserys was king and he named Dany his heir - which her introduction as Princess of Dragonstone in GOT indicates - she'd have the best claim as heir to Aerys II's heir.
There is also the fact that Robb's will disappeared before the Red Wedding, which may mean Jon has been "legitimized" as Jon Stark. If he's Jon Stark, does he come before Bran & Rickon as the oldest or at the end of the line since he was not originally seen as Ned's legitimate child?
Basically, the line of succession is a great mess.
They aren't siblings. Dany is Jon's aunt. She is Rhaegar's youngest sister who was born at the end of the rebellion. Jon is (IMO) the son of her oldest brother (Rhaegar who was the heir to the throne) and Lyanna (Ned's sister).
So technically, who would be the rightful heir (assuming the Jon theory is correct)? It would be Jon, right? Because his father was the heir?
Depends. A World of Ice and Fire complicates that a lot because it states that the Mad King named Viserys his heir, skipping over Rhaegar's children even though they were still living. And in GOT it is established that Dany is Viserys's heir, since she has the title Princess of Dragonstone, a title that is only given to the king's heir(ess).
Even if Dany offers her dragons and joins them, Jon's claim to the throne is stronger if there is proof Rhaeger wed Lyanna.
There is a lot of King foreshadowing in the books for Jon.
Well, the thing is in A World of Ice and Fire it is said that the Mad King names Viserys his heir even though Aegon & Rhaenys are still alive. (Unsurprising, since when he met his granddaughter he claimed that she "smelled Dornish.") If Viserys was king and he named Dany his heir - which her introduction as Princess of Dragonstone in GOT indicates - she'd have the best claim as heir to Aerys II's heir.
There is also the fact that Robb's will disappeared before the Red Wedding, which may mean Jon has been "legitimized" as Jon Stark. If he's Jon Stark, does he come before Bran & Rickon as the oldest or at the end of the line since he was not originally seen as Ned's legitimate child?
Basically, the line of succession is a great mess.
Yeah there are a lot of ins and outs. So it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
But I'm sure some people will still die before the end of the books too which might make it moot.
They aren't siblings. Dany is Jon's aunt. She is Rhaegar's youngest sister who was born at the end of the rebellion. Jon is (IMO) the son of her oldest brother (Rhaegar who was the heir to the throne) and Lyanna (Ned's sister).
So technically, who would be the rightful heir (assuming the Jon theory is correct)? It would be Jon, right? Because his father was the heir?
It sort of depends... If Rhaeger and Lyanna were married, then yes. But like someone else mentioned Aerys may have named Viserys his heir. I don't know how much that would matter or not.
Most people think Lyanna and Rhaegar were married because the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna (and Jon). If they weren't married, then they should have been with Viserys and Dany's mom not a bastard baby and his mother. Rhaegar was already dead at this point.
SO, I thought it was interesting that Dany is so out of touch that she hadn't heard that Tyrion had killed Tywin and seemed surprised that he was on the run. Its just more of the same with her basically having no idea what she is doing as a ruler or what she has to overcome if she thinks she is going to take the iron throne. Tyrion is a huge asset to her.
Love Jon Snow. Great episode. Really one of the best. For a minute though, I thought we were going to get a new female Wildling character who would be badass and kick ass, but apparently she became a zombie. Boo.
And I am waiting for some good Got/TWD combined memes and can't find anything yet.
The thing to note here is that Tyrion went straight from King's Landing to Mereen (at least in the show) and that's how news traveled at this point in time. Westeros has the raven system but we do not see anything of the sort in Essos. There people travel when they want to give Dany messages - we see that people come from Qarth, Yunkai, etc with the messages themselves. Which is why things travel a LOT slower.
As for a Dany/Jon marriage, I can actually see it happening. Dany has the love of the common people in Essos and has the undeniable claim as a Targaryen & the Mother of Dragons. She is also Drogon's rider. Jon is a good ruler but his subjects really dislike what he is doing to the point where
I'm 99.99% sure he will be Viserion or Rhaegal's rider. Never mind the House of the Undying prophecies strongly suggest a Dany/Jon pairing and the show is tying in blue roses & contrast between the two.
The leaked letter of George's states that the 5 major players who will work together in the War for the Dawn are
The story has changed a ton since there but the bones of it are the same. I can't imagine those five a) don't end up all alive until A Dream of Spring and b) don't work together at some point.
I really don't like the Tyrion dragon rider theories. Bear in mind, I am a HUGE fan of Tyrion but when you have him and Jon (presumably) both succeeding fabulously and pairing up with GRRM's precious Dany it's too... easy. Jon and Dany have obviously been on the road to success all along. They've risen to power young and they can do not lasting wrongs. They always come out ahead even though Martin tries to make it seem like they have struggles. (Both early teens and either the Lord Commander or a Queen? GTFO with your problems.)
Tyrion and Jon combined make up who I imagine every man wishes he was. Dashing, witty, heroic, intelligent and gifted. They're the two halves of GRRM's perfect man. I need part of that combo to fall flat on its face and I don't think it will be Jon.
SO, I thought it was interesting that Dany is so out of touch that she hadn't heard that Tyrion had killed Tywin and seemed surprised that he was on the run. Its just more of the same with her basically having no idea what she is doing as a ruler or what she has to overcome if she thinks she is going to take the iron throne. Tyrion is a huge asset to her.
And this is why getting rid of Jorah was such a huge fucking mistake. I'm still salty with her about it. She doesn't know a damned thing about what's going on in the world she things she's entitled to rule so good fucking luck, sister.
As a promise to his sister on her deathbed, to save the baby. If it was revealed that the baby was a Targaryen then it would have been killed.
So who else would know about this? How could this secret come out? Obviously Ned can't tell. I thought the Nights Watch Targaryen guy might have been the key but he died too.
SO, I thought it was interesting that Dany is so out of touch that she hadn't heard that Tyrion had killed Tywin and seemed surprised that he was on the run. Its just more of the same with her basically having no idea what she is doing as a ruler or what she has to overcome if she thinks she is going to take the iron throne. Tyrion is a huge asset to her.
Love Jon Snow. Great episode. Really one of the best. For a minute though, I thought we were going to get a new female Wildling character who would be badass and kick ass, but apparently she became a zombie. Boo.
And I am waiting for some good Got/TWD combined memes and can't find anything yet.
I knew the moment she put her children in the boat and told them she was right behind them that she was toast.
Tyrion is the best thing to happen to Dany. She may finally have a chance now.
Yes on the toast. She might as well have said "I'll be right back." Sheesh
Yes on Dany. She is a fool and fools only get far when they have brilliant people behind them. "Killing and politics are not the same thing.
And I bet Dany gets super pissed lol. Because he'd be able to control the dragon in a way she can't.
Now that Tyrion is with her I'm wondering if he'll ride a dragon because in the books he knows a lot about dragons and some people speculate that Aerys raped his mother and he's a Targaryen. But I'm not so sure about that. Could just be wild speculation. It's not like Jon's parents and the evidence that exists.
I've thought for a long time now that Tyrion is not Tywin's kid. Aerys was obsessed with Joanna Lannister all day and all night. That's part of why Tywin was willing to throw in with the Baratheons, right?
I always though it interesting that Tywin constantly said Tyrion was a Lannister but would never give him anything that was due him as a son of Tywin. Joanna was a Lannister cousin before she married Tywin so calling Tyrion a Lannister and giving him family shit but not son shit would well and truly fit. And while ordinarily, I would think that Tywin would be unable to can with a wife who was raped and get rid of her, it is often spoken of how much Tywin loved Joanna.
So I'm married to that theory and you leave me alone.
As a promise to his sister on her deathbed, to save the baby. If it was revealed that the baby was a Targaryen then it would have been killed.
You'd think he could have at least told his wife, so that she wouldn't have grown up hating Jon.
In the beginning, I thought this too. But Ned proved in short order that he had crazy cult-like devotion to promises and the notion of honor. If Lyanna made him promise, super swear and all that business, he wouldn't have told a soul no matter what it cost him.
As a promise to his sister on her deathbed, to save the baby. If it was revealed that the baby was a Targaryen then it would have been killed.
So who else would know about this? How could this secret come out? Obviously Ned can't tell. I thought the Nights Watch Targaryen guy might have been the key but he died too.
So this is all based on fan theory that I got from the internets, I only read through book 2. The only person that would know Ned's secret is Howland Reed, father of Meera & Jojen (Bran's friend's that took him north of the wall). He was the only other survivor from when Ned tried to rescue his sister.
So who else would know about this? How could this secret come out? Obviously Ned can't tell. I thought the Nights Watch Targaryen guy might have been the key but he died too.
So this is all based on fan theory that I got from the internets, I only read through book 2. The only person that would know Ned's secret is Howland Reed, father of Meera & Jojen (Bran's friend's that took him north of the wall). He was the only other survivor from when Ned tried to rescue his sister.
Yeah, Howland would know. There is also Wylla, who was Jon's wet nurse and was likely there when Jon was born.
There was also likely servants, a maester, midwives, etc at the Tower of Joy. (The Kingsguard wouldn't be delivering a baby, after all, and they had to be prepared for the possibility of Lyanna dying in childbirth.) They might not know about Jon specifically, but they would know about Rhaegar & Lyanna having a baby.
So technically, who would be the rightful heir (assuming the Jon theory is correct)? It would be Jon, right? Because his father was the heir?
It sort of depends... If Rhaeger and Lyanna were married, then yes. But like someone else mentioned Aerys may have named Viserys his heir. I don't know how much that would matter or not.
Most people think Lyanna and Rhaegar were married because the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna (and Jon). If they weren't married, then they should have been with Viserys and Dany's mom not a bastard baby and his mother. Rhaegar was already dead at this point.
They can't have been married though because Rhaegar already had a wife, right? Oberyn's sister? Is there a culture in Westeros where you can have two?
Jon can't inherit shit unless he leaves the Night's Watch though.
My theory is that this inheritance shit is irrelevant and it's all about who can survive when the Night's King brings his happy ass down and fucks everyone up.
And I bet Dany gets super pissed lol. Because he'd be able to control the dragon in a way she can't.
Now that Tyrion is with her I'm wondering if he'll ride a dragon because in the books he knows a lot about dragons and some people speculate that Aerys raped his mother and he's a Targaryen. But I'm not so sure about that. Could just be wild speculation. It's not like Jon's parents and the evidence that exists.
I've thought for a long time now that Tyrion is not Tywin's kid. Aerys was obsessed with Joanna Lannister all day and all night. That's part of why Tywin was willing to throw in with the Baratheons, right?
I always though it interesting that Tywin constantly said Tyrion was a Lannister but would never give him anything that was due him as a son of Tywin. Joanna was a Lannister cousin before she married Tywin so calling Tyrion a Lannister and giving him family shit but not son shit would well and truly fit. And while ordinarily, I would think that Tywin would be unable to can with a wife who was raped and get rid of her, it is often spoken of how much Tywin loved Joanna.
So I'm married to that theory and you leave me alone.
A World of Ice and Fire has a comment about how Jaime and Cersei were brought to King's Landing the year before Tyrion was born. She had not been back since she married Tywin and Aerys II took liberties during the bedding, joking about bringing back the king's right to First Night.
It was apparently something George said had to be included, not the two co-writers (who have read parts of TWOW and fact-check books for him). So it's looking more likely than ever that Tyrion may not be Tywin's.
It sort of depends... If Rhaeger and Lyanna were married, then yes. But like someone else mentioned Aerys may have named Viserys his heir. I don't know how much that would matter or not.
Most people think Lyanna and Rhaegar were married because the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna (and Jon). If they weren't married, then they should have been with Viserys and Dany's mom not a bastard baby and his mother. Rhaegar was already dead at this point.
They can't have been married though because Rhaegar already had a wife, right? Oberyn's sister? Is there a culture in Westeros where you can have two?
Jon can't inherit shit unless he leaves the Night's Watch though.
My theory is that this inheritance shit is irrelevant and it's all about who can survive when the Night's King brings his happy ass down and fucks everyone up.
Aegon the Conqueror was married to both of his sisters. Maegor the Cruel had 6 (8?) wives. The Faith is against it, but there is a precedent from past Targyaren kings and crown princes.
Inheritance in Westeros is extremely complicated and unclear, so you're likely right on that. The Night's Watch vows start with "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." That could be a loophole for Jon.
They can't have been married though because Rhaegar already had a wife, right? Oberyn's sister? Is there a culture in Westeros where you can have two?
Jon can't inherit shit unless he leaves the Night's Watch though.
My theory is that this inheritance shit is irrelevant and it's all about who can survive when the Night's King brings his happy ass down and fucks everyone up.
Aegon the Conqueror was married to both of his sisters. Maegor the Cruel had 6 (8?) wives. The Faith is against it, but there is a precedent from past Targyaren kings and crown princes.
Inheritance in Westeros is extremely complicated and unclear, so you're likely right on that. The Night's Watch vows start with "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." That could be a loophole for Jon.
Aegon the Conqueror was married to both of his sisters. Maegor the Cruel had 6 (8?) wives. The Faith is against it, but there is a precedent from past Targyaren kings and crown princes.
Inheritance in Westeros is extremely complicated and unclear, so you're likely right on that. The Night's Watch vows start with "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." That could be a loophole for Jon.
Lol that death is a loophole.
I know. There's some other interesting stuff in there too. I am the light that brings the dawn, for instance. Or the horn that wakes the sleepers when we have two mysterious horns floating around in the books.
Any clue how Arya's assassin story line is going to fit in with everything else?
My bet: she won't finish training and will cross back over to Westeros, where she will use her skills to kill the remaining people on her list. She will meet up with "Chekov's wolf pack" (what George called Nymeria's wolf pack, which is causing chaos in the Riverlands). I then expect she will head north or to wherever the fighting is... possibly the the Trident, given a Dany prophecy.
also, there is no way the next book will be out before the next season debuts next April, is there? Fucking GRRM get with the program dude.
He has cancelled appearances at conventions but says if he is done the manuscript by then he will go. So he thinks there is an actual possibility that he will be done by November, but... yeah. At least once he gets the manuscript in things will be on double speed to get it published in time.
I'm not holding my breath, but I hope the show catching up will be the kick in the pants he needs.
As for the House of Black & White I think she can leave until she's an official Faceless (Wo)Man. She had the opportunity to leave relatively recently so I assume that still stands.
also, there is no way the next book will be out before the next season debuts next April, is there? Fucking GRRM get with the program dude.
He has cancelled appearances at conventions but says if he is done the manuscript by then he will go. So he thinks there is an actual possibility that he will be done by November, but... yeah. At least once he gets the manuscript in things will be on double speed to get it published in time.
I'm not holding my breath, but I hope the show catching up will be the kick in the pants he needs.
As for the House of Black & White I think she can leave until she's an official Faceless (Wo)Man. She had the opportunity to leave relatively recently so I assume that still stands.
You have given me hope that we will actually get a Book 6. I've started to doubt that he will finish them.
This is a good thread. Between these threads and this Youtuber I watch, I feel like I have good back story from the books. I think I need to start the series over again, though. I'm sure there were things that would click more for me now.
I have this awesome coffee table book that H got me for Christmas that is all about Westeros and the legends and stuff. It helps me!
So this is all based on fan theory that I got from the internets, I only read through book 2. The only person that would know Ned's secret is Howland Reed, father of Meera & Jojen (Bran's friend's that took him north of the wall). He was the only other survivor from when Ned tried to rescue his sister.
Yeah, Howland would know. There is also Wylla, who was Jon's wet nurse and was likely there when Jon was born.
There was also likely servants, a maester, midwives, etc at the Tower of Joy. (The Kingsguard wouldn't be delivering a baby, after all, and they had to be prepared for the possibility of Lyanna dying in childbirth.) They might not know about Jon specifically, but they would know about Rhaegar & Lyanna having a baby.
But would any of those people be able to connect the baby to Jon Snow? It sounds like only Howland and Wylla would know (are they even in the show???)
Yeah, Howland would know. There is also Wylla, who was Jon's wet nurse and was likely there when Jon was born.
There was also likely servants, a maester, midwives, etc at the Tower of Joy. (The Kingsguard wouldn't be delivering a baby, after all, and they had to be prepared for the possibility of Lyanna dying in childbirth.) They might not know about Jon specifically, but they would know about Rhaegar & Lyanna having a baby.
But would any of those people be able to connect the baby to Jon Snow? It sounds like only Howland and Wylla would know (are they even in the show???)
Howland can be brought in as Jojen & Meera's dad if need be. Way back in season 1 (episode 2, I think) Ned tells Robert that Jon's mother is named "Wylla". It's a long time ago, but they could bring it up in a recap I suppose.
It sort of depends... If Rhaeger and Lyanna were married, then yes. But like someone else mentioned Aerys may have named Viserys his heir. I don't know how much that would matter or not.
Most people think Lyanna and Rhaegar were married because the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna (and Jon). If they weren't married, then they should have been with Viserys and Dany's mom not a bastard baby and his mother. Rhaegar was already dead at this point.
They can't have been married though because Rhaegar already had a wife, right? Oberyn's sister? Is there a culture in Westeros where you can have two?
Jon can't inherit shit unless he leaves the Night's Watch though.
My theory is that this inheritance shit is irrelevant and it's all about who can survive when the Night's King brings his happy ass down and fucks everyone up.
Well... Targaryens practiced polygamy in the past so there is some precedent for it or the possibility they married under the old gods vs the 7.
I agree about the Night's Watch and actual succession depending on who is left standing after stuff goes to shit.
I think people think they married and Jon is legitimate because of the Kingsguard being there protecting Lyanna and Jon. Really they should have been with Viserys because this was after the sack of King's Landing I think (so Rhaegar's other two kids were dead).