My mom got pregnant with my older sister at age 17 by my father. They were each other's firsts and my mother had not graduated high school. It would have been so easy for her to get an abortion.
My dad manned up and proposed to my mother and they were married when she turned 18. They struggled financially for years, but pushed through. They have now been married for over 30 years and are two of the happiest people I know.
It's a shame more men don't do the right thing. I can't imagine the pressure being a single mom.
What a very lucky outcome. However, I can't get past these phrases though. Judgmental and condescending.
I guess my phrasing was bad. I realize it wouldn't have been an easy choice, but I think you know what I meant. My mother's life would have been completely different for her if she had aborted. She was a straight A student with dreams of going to college. Having the baby and getting married meant none of that would happen. She finally did end up getting to go back to school once my youngest sister was in high school, but I'm sure her life didn't turn out the way she dreamed when she turned 17. She would say now that it turned out better, but I bet her 17-year-old self had a hard time seeing how that would be possible as she sat there with the pregnancy test scared to death about telling her boyfriend and parents what happened.
As far as my dad manning up. ::shrugs:: I've watched Teen Mom and 16 and Pregnant enough times to see how this usually goes with men. Stats show that they do not end up sticking around in these types of situations. Thank goodness my dad decided to grow up, because too many "men" (I'm not sure you can call a 17-year-old deadbeat dad that) do not do the right thing. I'm not even saying they need to marry the mother. How many actually end up sticking around, being a father to their kid, and supporting them financially? It just usually does't happen with teen parents. My parents are the exception to the story.
My mom got pregnant with my older sister at age 17 by my father. They were each other's firsts and my mother had not graduated high school. It would have been so easy for her to get an abortion.
My dad manned up and proposed to my mother and they were married when she turned 18. They struggled financially for years, but pushed through. They have now been married for over 30 years and are two of the happiest people I know.
It's a shame more men don't do the right thing. I can't imagine the pressure being a single mom.
aw, did you read the other responses in this thread? From the very limited information you've given, it sounds like your mom and dad at least loved each other.
Struggling financially and pushing through it is NOT the same as living in extreme poverty, emotionally neglecting your children, or putting them in a position where they are emotionally, physically, or sexually abused.
There's a difference between the pressure of being a single mom and what this article, and these other posters are talking about.
aw, did you read the other responses in this thread? From the very limited information you've given, it sounds like your mom and dad at least loved each other.
Struggling financially and pushing through it is NOT the same as living in extreme poverty, emotionally neglecting your children, or putting them in a position where they are emotionally, physically, or sexually abused.
There's a difference between the pressure of being a single mom and what this article, and these other posters are talking about.
They learned to love each other. My father acted like a child in many ways during the beginning of their marriage. They actually did live n poverty and my father wasn't around much at all. He went to work and then would go out every night with his buddies (because he was 19 years old and that's what he thought he should be allowed to do) leaving my mother at home with a baby. But my mother was patient (and also didn't really have an option to leave) and knew that he would outgrow the phase. By his mid-twenties he did and as the years went on they learned to love each other. I would venture to say that many of the successful marriages that are a result of teenage pregnancy sort of happen this way.
Perhaps I shouldn't have shared this here. It seemed appropriate, but I guess I can see how it came across as judgmental or insensitive. I apologize. Everyone in my mom and dad's life wanted them to abort. When they said they were getting married people gave them a few years tops and tried to stop it from happening. I guess my point in posting was that it would have made sense for my mother to abort too, but I'm glad she didn't.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
AW I thought you said your mom was now a lesbian? Are they still together as a couple or just still legally married?
That's my MIL. Although her relationship with my FIL is an entirely different story. MIL is still a lesbian, and FIL and her are divorced, but they live together as if they are still married. FIL's faith tells him he is still technically "married" to her, so he feels like he is still responsible for taking care of her in many ways.
It always confuses me when people say that getting married is "the right thing" to do in the event of an unplanned pregnancy;.
I don't have any actual data to back this up, but I'd imagine it's the leftover notion of a shotgun wedding. "Boy, you got my daughter pregnant, so you will make her an honest woman." It's that traditional way of thinking that getting married makes it all better and socially acceptable.
Folks still do this. My SIL tried to do this. Granted her baby's father isn't a bad guy, it's just she's such a beebee and doesn't know dayum thing about life. Another of my college educated friends did this. She got KU'd by the guy she was dating, and they married. They are still married, do well, have a couple of kids, but I don't know that I'd call it the poster child of a happy marriage. I think they basically tolerate each other. They don't hate each other, but a fairy tale I love you more than rainbows and unicorn farts is stretching it.
The other piece that I find highlighted in this essay is one of my biggest beefs with the pro-life movement. Absolutely zero support once the baby is born and an organization that was supposed to help (church) that only added to the abuse. It pisses me off more than I can say.
Exactly. I really truly do not understand the hand wringing and angst over a fertilized egg but the meh attitude over what happens once the kid is born. Sure they SAY they care. But their opinions (bootstraps) and voting says otherwise. Life can suck. Some people are never born. Others are born unwanted and live a life of abuse and neglect. Others are born with extensive health issues and die young, many times due to not having good health care or just a birth defect that no amount of care could have helped. Why is the first scenario so horrible that pro lifers fight to do something about it but the second two scenarios get a shrug and a "that's a shame" from them? Or let me clarify, the pro lifers I know.
Because I'm sure the board is full of pro lifers who care about a person from womb to grave.
I got into this recently with a guy who is anti-abortion but feels that health care isn't "right". Basically if you don't have health care, you die. Thems the breaks. Why is abortion so horrible but someone dying because they can't afford chemo isn't?
I think aw's story fits into the broader conversation, about choice and options and what we expect from men and women in these scenarios. I don't think it's an attempt to be insensitive, I think it's another story in the unplanned pregnancy narrative. There isn't one option, nor should there be one.
I agree. Obviously her wording could have been better, but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't have posted at all.
I think the stat is something like 90% of teen moms are no longer with the baby's father after 10 years. So yeah, sometimes it works out and they live happily ever after, but the vast majority of the time it does not happen that way. The solution isn't just to say that all of those girls should have had an abortion (which I don't think anyone is saying here), but it's also not to just say that all of those dads should have just manned up.
Post by laurenpetro on Aug 16, 2012 11:05:51 GMT -5
one of my friends had a shotgun wedding. she's spent 20 years married to an emotionally abusive, sometimes medicated bi-polar guy who has attempted suicide 4 times. they now have 5 kids. they're extremely wealthy and she's miserable. her only role model for marriage is her mom who was twice married to guys who beat the shit out of her and her kids.
so yeah, thank god that guy stuck around. he's a real peach.
I got into this recently with a guy who is anti-abortion but feels that health care isn't "right". Basically if you don't have health care, you die. Thems the breaks. Why is abortion so horrible but someone dying because they can't afford chemo isn't?
Not saying I agree with him, but perhaps he feels that those two views are consistent. If you believe God should be the one in charge of who lives and dies, whether as a fetus or an adult, his view makes sense. Perhaps he feels that if God wants that person to live, He will help them afford the chemo.
Once again, not saying I agree with him, but I also can see how he can believe this and feel he is being consistent in his beliefs.
Post by wrathofkuus on Aug 16, 2012 11:14:35 GMT -5
I've always been amused at how the people who say "if my mother had gone through with the abortion, I wouldn't be here!" are always the people who I'm kind of thinking "...and that would be a bad thing why?"
It always confuses me when people say that getting married is "the right thing" to do in the event of an unplanned pregnancy;.
I don't have any actual data to back this up, but I'd imagine it's the leftover notion of a shotgun wedding. "Boy, you got my daughter pregnant, so you will make her an honest woman." It's that traditional way of thinking that getting married makes it all better and socially acceptable.
Folks still do this. My SIL tried to do this. Granted her baby's father isn't a bad guy, it's just she's such a beebee and doesn't know dayum thing about life. Another of my college educated friends did this. She got KU'd by the guy she was dating, and they married. They are still married, do well, have a couple of kids, but I don't know that I'd call it the poster child of a happy marriage. I think they basically tolerate each other. They don't hate each other, but a fairy tale I love you more than rainbows and unicorn farts is stretching it.
Yeah, I can name a lot of people who got married as teenagers for this reason. Most of them got divorced in their 40's and 50's- when all the kids left home. You know, that whole "staying together for the kids" thing. They didn't really look like bad marriages from the outside, but they tolerated each other and "made it work." Hell, my grandparents got divorced after 25 years of marriage and raising six kids. If my teenage daughter got knocked up I'd tell her to do everything BUT get married.
I think this article is important if for no other reason than to underscore the emptiness of the "just give it up for adoption" argument the pro-life advocates try to advance. I know I've told this story before, but I am completely haunted by the story of one of my mom's friends from high school. She was from a Catholic family and abortion was illegal, so there was no way she was going to be able to sneak and get one or get her family to condone it. She planned to give the baby up for adoption because her parents were so "shamed" by her that they told her she couldn't live with them if she kept the baby. She had a girl and upon having the baby could not bring herself to give her up. She tried for 6 weeks to live on her own and raise the baby, but as a high schooler with no support group, was completely overwhelmed by the project and seeing that her daughter would have an absolutely impoverished life, placed her for adoption.
On the child's first birthday, she shot herself in the head. She was 17. Shut the fuck up with the "there's always adoption" stuff. For some people abortion really IS the better alternative.
My God this is horrible and heartbreaking.
I truly hate the "just give it up for adoption" argument too. It completely ignores all of the complexity and difficulty involved in doing so.
I think this article is important if for no other reason than to underscore the emptiness of the "just give it up for adoption" argument the pro-life advocates try to advance. I know I've told this story before, but I am completely haunted by the story of one of my mom's friends from high school. She was from a Catholic family and abortion was illegal, so there was no way she was going to be able to sneak and get one or get her family to condone it. She planned to give the baby up for adoption because her parents were so "shamed" by her that they told her she couldn't live with them if she kept the baby. She had a girl and upon having the baby could not bring herself to give her up. She tried for 6 weeks to live on her own and raise the baby, but as a high schooler with no support group, was completely overwhelmed by the project and seeing that her daughter would have an absolutely impoverished life, placed her for adoption.
On the child's first birthday, she shot herself in the head. She was 17. Shut the fuck up with the "there's always adoption" stuff. For some people abortion really IS the better alternative.
I think this article is important if for no other reason than to underscore the emptiness of the "just give it up for adoption" argument the pro-life advocates try to advance. I know I've told this story before, but I am completely haunted by the story of one of my mom's friends from high school. She was from a Catholic family and abortion was illegal, so there was no way she was going to be able to sneak and get one or get her family to condone it. She planned to give the baby up for adoption because her parents were so "shamed" by her that they told her she couldn't live with them if she kept the baby. She had a girl and upon having the baby could not bring herself to give her up. She tried for 6 weeks to live on her own and raise the baby, but as a high schooler with no support group, was completely overwhelmed by the project and seeing that her daughter would have an absolutely impoverished life, placed her for adoption.
On the child's first birthday, she shot herself in the head. She was 17. Shut the fuck up with the "there's always adoption" stuff. For some people abortion really IS the better alternative.
I'm so sorry to hear this.
I hope this doesn't sound insensitive, but I don't see anything wrong with saying "there's always adoption" and offering it to people as an option. People tend to think you either have to abort or keep it. And in an age where open adoptions are so common, it really is a valid option for many people.
Maybe you're right that abortion is the better alternative for some people, but for every story of a mother that committed suicide after an adoption I can pull up one for a mother or faither who committed suicide after an abortion. Maybe for those people adoption would have been the better alternative? Sadly, with some people you're not going to be able to tell which choice would have been better for them until after the fact.
I got into this recently with a guy who is anti-abortion but feels that health care isn't "right". Basically if you don't have health care, you die. Thems the breaks. Why is abortion so horrible but someone dying because they can't afford chemo isn't?
Not saying I agree with him, but perhaps he feels that those two views are consistent. If you believe God should be the one in charge of who lives and dies, whether as a fetus or an adult, his view makes sense. Perhaps he feels that if God wants that person to live, He will help them afford the chemo.
Once again, not saying I agree with him, but I also can see how he can believe this and feel he is being consistent in his beliefs.
That's not what he believes though. A person who truly believes that God decides who lives or dies would never seek any form of medical treatment. Ever.
He goes to the doctor. He had knee surgery last year. He's on asthma meds. Medicine is all good, if you can afford it, in his opinion. If your job doesn't offer healthcare and if you can't pay out of pocket then that's it for you, according to him. Then of course so he doesn't look like a cold hearted bastard he'll throw in a "It's a shame and I don't like that it works this way" (sad face) This is pretty much the stance on the prolifers in my life. Your aren't going to get a lot of sympathy out of them for anything but a fetus.
Not saying I agree with him, but perhaps he feels that those two views are consistent. If you believe God should be the one in charge of who lives and dies, whether as a fetus or an adult, his view makes sense. Perhaps he feels that if God wants that person to live, He will help them afford the chemo.
Once again, not saying I agree with him, but I also can see how he can believe this and feel he is being consistent in his beliefs.
That's not what he believes though. A person who truly believes that God decides who lives or dies would never seek any form of medical treatment. Ever.
He goes to the doctor. He had knee surgery last year. He's on asthma meds. Medicine is all good, if you can afford it, in his opinion. If your job doesn't offer healthcare and if you can't pay out of pocket then that's it for you, according to him. Then of course so he doesn't look like a cold hearted bastard he'll throw in a "It's a shame and I don't like that it works this way" (sad face) This is pretty much the stance on the prolifers in my life. Your aren't going to get a lot of sympathy out of them for anything but a fetus.
I don't think you have to be a Christian Scientist to believe that God decides who lives and dies. Perhaps he's a Christian that believes Gos gave us the medical technology to live and that God decides who will be able to afford to use it. If God is ultimately in control of it all, He's going to make sure you are able to get the chemo if you need it and even further, He's going to make sure it actually works if He wants it to. The Bible talks about medicine and healing in places, so many Christians do believe that it has a place in their life.
Once again, not saying what I agree with. Just that there are different levels of belief on these types of issues. You can't say what a person who truly believes in God will or won't believe about these things, because people interpret things differently.
That's not what he believes though. A person who truly believes that God decides who lives or dies would never seek any form of medical treatment. Ever.
He goes to the doctor. He had knee surgery last year. He's on asthma meds. Medicine is all good, if you can afford it, in his opinion. If your job doesn't offer healthcare and if you can't pay out of pocket then that's it for you, according to him. Then of course so he doesn't look like a cold hearted bastard he'll throw in a "It's a shame and I don't like that it works this way" (sad face) This is pretty much the stance on the prolifers in my life. Your aren't going to get a lot of sympathy out of them for anything but a fetus.
If you have genuine sympathy for a fetus, you probably are able to have genuine sympathy for people. So I would say he probably doesn't actually even have sympathy for the fetus. Do you think people like this actually give a shit whether a fetus they have no connection to is born? It's been said on here before, but I'll say it again; it's not about sympathy for the unborn; it's about making sure women are properly punished for being sluts by being forced to have babies they don't want.
AW I thought you said your mom was now a lesbian? Are they still together as a couple or just still legally married?
That's my MIL. Although her relationship with my FIL is an entirely different story. MIL is still a lesbian, and FIL and her are divorced, but they live together as if they are still married. FIL's faith tells him he is still technically "married" to her, so he feels like he is still responsible for taking care of her in many ways.
I hope this doesn't sound insensitive, but I don't see anything wrong with saying "there's always adoption" and offering it to people as an option. People tend to think you either have to abort or keep it. And in an age where open adoptions are so common, it really is a valid option for many people.
Maybe you're right that abortion is the better alternative for some people, but for every story of a mother that committed suicide after an adoption I can pull up one for a mother or faither who committed suicide after an abortion. Maybe for those people adoption would have been the better alternative? Sadly, with some people you're not going to be able to tell which choice would have been better for them until after the fact.
The problem with saying it is that anyone who is pregnant knows adoption exists. And the comments are condescending and preachy. Because no one says them on the assumption that someone doesn't know adoption exists; they say them because they believe the person should pursue adoption instead.
I'm not sure I know there are any stats about how many mothers commit suicide after adoption and I doubt there are any stats on fathers who commit suicide after abortion. I think that you stand a substantially better chance of being able to tell which situation will work for you than a legislator in Washington does.
I'll agree that it can come across as preachy and that lots of people may be bullied into making the decision. I just think that there is nothing wrong with including it as an option. When people go to a place like planned parenthood to discuss their options, I hope that all three options - keeping the baby, adoption, and abortion - are all discussed. And not just discussed, I hope that information about resources (support groups for mothers who have placed their baby for adoption, counseling services, etc.) are offered just like they would be for any other choice.
But I agree with you that people know better for themselves than politicians.
That's not what he believes though. A person who truly believes that God decides who lives or dies would never seek any form of medical treatment. Ever.
He goes to the doctor. He had knee surgery last year. He's on asthma meds. Medicine is all good, if you can afford it, in his opinion. If your job doesn't offer healthcare and if you can't pay out of pocket then that's it for you, according to him. Then of course so he doesn't look like a cold hearted bastard he'll throw in a "It's a shame and I don't like that it works this way" (sad face) This is pretty much the stance on the prolifers in my life. Your aren't going to get a lot of sympathy out of them for anything but a fetus.
I don't think you have to be a Christian Scientist to believe that God decides who lives and dies. Perhaps he's a Christian that believes Gos gave us the medical technology to live and that God decides who will be able to afford to use it. If God is ultimately in control of it all, He's going to make sure you are able to get the chemo if you need it and even further, He's going to make sure it actually works if He wants it to. The Bible talks about medicine and healing in places, so many Christians do believe that it has a place in their life.
Once again, not saying what I agree with. Just that there are different levels of belief on these types of issues. You can't say what a person who truly believes in God will or won't believe about these things, because people interpret things differently.
I can't imagine thinking that a god who behaves this way is a good, trustworthy sort of guy.
I think aw's story fits into the broader conversation, about choice and options and what we expect from men and women in these scenarios. I don't think it's an attempt to be insensitive, I think it's another story in the unplanned pregnancy narrative. There isn't one option, nor should there be one.
I agree. Obviously her wording could have been better, but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't have posted at all.
I wasn't trying to imply she shouldn't have posted - but I also think there is a very big difference between the situation she posted and the situation that others have posted. I think that does need to back acknowledged as well.
I don't think you have to be a Christian Scientist to believe that God decides who lives and dies. Perhaps he's a Christian that believes Gos gave us the medical technology to live and that God decides who will be able to afford to use it. If God is ultimately in control of it all, He's going to make sure you are able to get the chemo if you need it and even further, He's going to make sure it actually works if He wants it to. The Bible talks about medicine and healing in places, so many Christians do believe that it has a place in their life.
Once again, not saying what I agree with. Just that there are different levels of belief on these types of issues. You can't say what a person who truly believes in God will or won't believe about these things, because people interpret things differently.
I can't imagine thinking that a god who behaves this way is a good, trustworthy sort of guy.
I believe it's a human flaw. We think God is here for us and that this life is all about us. If you believe that God is God and life is about Him and His glory, it's not really hard to believe my way and still see how good and Holy He is. I guess it depends on what you believe human beings deserve. If we deserve punishment and death, then it is a merciful and loving God who chooses to save some of us for His glory. If you think we all deserve puppies and rainbows, then of course He seems cruel and unjust.
I understand why you believe this way. We just have a different view of the nature of God and man.
I can't imagine thinking that a god who behaves this way is a good, trustworthy sort of guy.
I believe it's a human flaw. We think God is here for us and that this life is all about us. If you believe that God is God and life is about Him and His glory, it's not really hard to believe my way and still see how good and Holy He is. I guess it depends on what you believe human beings deserve. If we deserve punishment and death, then it is a merciful and loving God who chooses to save some of us for His glory. If you think we all deserve puppies and rainbows, then of course He seems cruel and unjust.
I understand why you believe this way. We just have a different view of the nature of God and man.
But God is not deciding who lives or dies. A person's quality of healthcare insurance does. I'm supposed to believe that the person with good healthcare has it because God wanted them to and the person who can't afford chemo is just someone God threw under the bus? This guy I know is very forthcoming with his thoughts and I can assure you he doesn't think this way. He thinks that healthcare is something that is "nice" to have if you can get it but you aren't entitled to it. If you die, you die. It's not becasue God called you home. It's because you weren't lucky enough to have healthcare. And he's fine with that. He's only mushy over widdle fetuses and that is what I can't reconcile.
I believe it's a human flaw. We think God is here for us and that this life is all about us. If you believe that God is God and life is about Him and His glory, it's not really hard to believe my way and still see how good and Holy He is. I guess it depends on what you believe human beings deserve. If we deserve punishment and death, then it is a merciful and loving God who chooses to save some of us for His glory. If you think we all deserve puppies and rainbows, then of course He seems cruel and unjust.
I understand why you believe this way. We just have a different view of the nature of God and man.
But God is not deciding who lives or dies. A person's quality of healthcare insurance does. I'm supposed to believe that the person with good healthcare has it because God wanted them to and the person who can't afford chemo is just someone God threw under the bus? This guy I know is very forthcoming with his thoughts and I can assure you he doesn't think this way. He thinks that healthcare is something that is "nice" to have if you can get it but you aren't entitled to it. If you die, you die. It's not becasue God called you home. It's because you weren't lucky enough to have healthcare. And he's fine with that. He's only mushy over widdle fetuses and that is what I can't reconcile.
I don't think God throws anyone under the bus. I think we often throw ourselves there and God chooses who He is going to pull out from under and who He is going to give over to their own stubbornness (Psalm 81:12). It may not sound fair, but as I said in PP, fairness depends on your view of God and man. To me, He demonstrates His mercy by choosing to save people when we all deserve death. The fair thing to do would be to let us all suffer. Thank God for His Grace!
And you obviously know that guy better than I do. I just wouldn't presume that all people who value a fetus and that also don't think that healthcare is a "right" aren't being consistent in their beliefs. That was my whole point in bringing it up. I believe many of those people are being very consistent.