Team Moxie. I've always thought that yeah, for children who are not aborted, I'm sure you've touched people's lives in a good way. I'm sure your friend or your spouse are glad you're here.
But if I had never existed, I feel like my husband would have been able to find another spouse, whom he may have been equally compatible with. I mean, I don't sit around and mope about all the cool friends I might have had who have been aborted, so I never got to know them. ^o) It wouldn't make any difference to ME since I wouldn't have been sentient and I would never have known I was aborted, right?
It's like the argument that you might be aborting the next Einstein. And... you might be aborting the next Hitler. And honestly, given that many women who choose abortion do so for financial issues or lack of support, the latter seems more probable.
And I can't roll my eyes hard enough at that guy's story about praying to God as a fetus.
I don't think God throws anyone under the bus. I think we often throw ourselves there and God chooses who He is going to pull out from under and who He is going to give over to their own stubbornness (Psalm 81:12). It may not sound fair, but as I said in PP, fairness depends on your view of God and man. To me, He demonstrates His mercy by choosing to save people when we all deserve death. The fair thing to do would be to let us all suffer. Thank God for His Grace!
And you obviously know that guy better than I do. I just wouldn't presume that all people who value a fetus and that also don't think that healthcare is a "right" aren't being consistent in their beliefs. That was my whole point in bringing it up. I believe many of those people are being very consistent.
If we all deserve death and suffering then what's the big deal about abortions.
Because people view it as murder of innocent life, something which God condemns in the Bible. Since we're not God, we don't get to make the decision to end a life that God created.
The other issue I have with people like the first two pro-life authors the writer mentions are that their mothers are portrayed in a Madonna-like way. The culmination of their mother's entire existence was giving birth to a baby! That's the best use of a woman! To abort is to go against a female's nature, to be less of a woman, to be less of a human. Women aren't supposed to NOT want to be mothers, or supposed to feel conflicted about pregnancy or babies! They are pegging women into a certain hole - they are a vessel for the production of an infant, nothing more than that.
So that's one reason I really appreciate how the author described how her mother's pregnancy and motherhood changed the MOTHER'S life, and perhaps not for the better.
I don't think God throws anyone under the bus. I think we often throw ourselves there and God chooses who He is going to pull out from under and who He is going to give over to their own stubbornness (Psalm 81:12). It may not sound fair, but as I said in PP, fairness depends on your view of God and man. To me, He demonstrates His mercy by choosing to save people when we all deserve death. The fair thing to do would be to let us all suffer. Thank God for His Grace!
And you obviously know that guy better than I do. I just wouldn't presume that all people who value a fetus and that also don't think that healthcare is a "right" aren't being consistent in their beliefs. That was my whole point in bringing it up. I believe many of those people are being very consistent.
If we all deserve death and suffering then what's the big deal about abortions.
That struck me as funny. Kill all humans! You're doing God's work!
This is a compelling story and I was only able to get to the end of page 1 of the replies. It does make me uncomfortable and it's good to ponder the question.
But i must say... I must be a selfish asshole. If I am, I own it. My mom's life would have been better in her 20s if she wouldn't have married my dad because she got knocked up with my brother, and then I wouldn't have come along. Or the me I am today and the him my brother is today wouldn't be because my dad's biology wouldn't be in there.
She could have married someone else, someone richer, someone with a better value match to hers, etc.
But no matter, what, she would have had her own issues like those of Caitlin Bree's mom because she lived a life of patterns of broken relationships. Whether I were born in a relationship with my father or a different me was born in a relationship with the next guy or one down the road, I think my mom would have to a large extend lived the same life. It wouldn't have been as hard and she would probably have found more self-worth had she been able to take more than a couple of semesters of college, but who knows?
So if it's selfish, so be it, but I'm hella glad she didn't abort my brother or me. And I know the world is a better place to have my brother in it. I hope in my own way I make it a better place too. Very few individuals impact the masses so that their absence would have a huge macro impact... but if we are living the way we should, we have all made a huge impact on someone else, who maybe turned that into an impact for someone else and so on.
It is cheesy but I'm reminded of the tree grandmother in the Pocahontas story I read my daughter last night who told P that it only takes one drop to start the ripples in a pond, and think about how far those can spread.
As for the original author, her mother would likely have led a little bit better of a life for a little while had she aborted the author, but it was inevitable for her to get pregnant again with the abuse she apparently suffered and at some point one can't cope with repeated abortions, or at least I can't fathom that. So the inevitable kid would have likely lived the same or a similar life as the author herself.
GBCN disclaimer - I'm not saying abortions should be illegal by posting this. Just that the author overestimates the positive impact an abortion would have had on her mother's life just as much as the pro-lifers overestimate the positive impact the lack of abortion had on the world because of their existence.
This is a compelling story and I was only able to get to the end of page 1 of the replies. It does make me uncomfortable and it's good to ponder the question.
But i must say... I must be a selfish asshole. If I am, I own it. My mom's life would have been better in her 20s if she wouldn't have married my dad because she got knocked up with my brother, and then I wouldn't have come along. Or the me I am today and the him my brother is today wouldn't be because my dad's biology wouldn't be in there.
She could have married someone else, someone richer, someone with a better value match to hers, etc.
But no matter, what, she would have had her own issues like those of Caitlin Bree's mom because she lived a life of patterns of broken relationships. Whether I were born in a relationship with my father or a different me was born in a relationship with the next guy or one down the road, I think my mom would have to a large extend lived the same life. It wouldn't have been as hard and she would probably have found more self-worth had she been able to take more than a couple of semesters of college, but who knows?
So if it's selfish, so be it, but I'm hella glad she didn't abort my brother or me. And I know the world is a better place to have my brother in it. I hope in my own way I make it a better place too. Very few individuals impact the masses so that their absence would have a huge macro impact... but if we are living the way we should, we have all made a huge impact on someone else, who maybe turned that into an impact for someone else and so on.
It is cheesy but I'm reminded of the tree grandmother in the Pocahontas story I read my daughter last night who told P that it only takes one drop to start the ripples in a pond, and think about how far those can spread.
As for the original author, her mother would likely have led a little bit better of a life for a little while had she aborted the author, but it was inevitable for her to get pregnant again with the abuse she apparently suffered and at some point one can't cope with repeated abortions, or at least I can't fathom that. So the inevitable kid would have likely lived the same or a similar life as the author herself.
GBCN disclaimer - I'm not saying abortions should be illegal by posting this. Just that the author overestimates the positive impact an abortion would have had on her mother's life just as much as the pro-lifers overestimate the positive impact the lack of abortion had on the world because of their existence.
If we all deserve death and suffering then what's the big deal about abortions.
Because people view it as murder of innocent life, something which God condemns in the Bible. Since we're not God, we don't get to make the decision to end a life that God created.
How does this apply to people who believe in original sin? Aren't those fetuses just as much sinners as the rest of us?
aw- Is there a difference between actively killing something and denying it something that will kill it.
Like killing a fetus is murder, but denying someone healthcare for a condition isn't? The second would be God's work then? And the first would obviously be man, right?
What about taking people off life-support. Is that God's will or man's when that person dies. Man takes him off support and God let's him die?
That's not what he believes though. A person who truly believes that God decides who lives or dies would never seek any form of medical treatment. Ever.
He goes to the doctor. He had knee surgery last year. He's on asthma meds. Medicine is all good, if you can afford it, in his opinion. If your job doesn't offer healthcare and if you can't pay out of pocket then that's it for you, according to him. Then of course so he doesn't look like a cold hearted bastard he'll throw in a "It's a shame and I don't like that it works this way" (sad face) This is pretty much the stance on the prolifers in my life. Your aren't going to get a lot of sympathy out of them for anything but a fetus.
If you have genuine sympathy for a fetus, you probably are able to have genuine sympathy for people. So I would say he probably doesn't actually even have sympathy for the fetus. Do you think people like this actually give a shit whether a fetus they have no connection to is born? It's been said on here before, but I'll say it again; it's not about sympathy for the unborn; it's about making sure women are properly punished for being sluts by being forced to have babies they don't want.
Yes, yes, a million times yes. (You stick around, ladybrettashley!)
Warning: I can be morbid and am not a particularly emotional person, so the below may sound very harsh. It's what I have felt for years and not directed at anyone in particular.
My mom wanted me (too much, she shouldn't have even been with my cheating ass of a dad anymore), so maybe it's easy for me to say this, but I wouldn't give a shit had I been aborted.
Is anyone truly sad about not being alive and experiencing the sinking of the titanic? Does that haunt anyone on a daily basis? That is what your "experience" is like not being born. Which is to say, not a problem. The pain argument is not compelling to me as I don't remember crying for shots, being dropped, having my ears pierced, or other painful things that happened as a newborn, much less what happened in utero. I'm not Powder.
I am a decent person that is a productive member of society, but I don't think the world would be suffering a great loss had I never been born. Your kids wouldn't be there to miss you, your husband would have another wife, etc. the world would keep turning.
I guess I just think that abortions don't really matter on a macro level (well, except for the freakonomics less crime thing, perhaps). So if someone wants one for whatever reason, fine. I don't need a tear-jerking story to get on board. There are 7 billion+ people on earth. Not every single one of those people is super special that the rest of us can't live without.
I'm rambling. I guess I just feel like the emotional manipulation on both sides of the issue is too much. And the "I wouldn't be here" stuff is unnecessarily dramatic. For me, the response to that is usually "so?"
However, once you have the kid, don't be an ass and tell them you wish you had aborted them. That's uncalled for. Once someone is out and about, so to speak, treat them with love and dignity.
This I agree with. I know it's difficult to have kids early in life. I had my son at 19, turned 20 a few months later. When I told my mom I was probably around six/seven weeks along. After her knees stopped shaking and she got her bearings, she said "I'll support you in whichever decision you make" and honestly it took me a minute or so to figure out what she was talking about, then I realized she meant abortion and I was like jeez that truly never even crossed my mind, and of course I'm having him/her (is a 13 yr old boy now) and she was relieved. It was good to know She would have been supportive either way, considering she is Catholic and slightly devout.
I've never ever given any thought to had I not been born how my mom/dad's life would be. What's the sense in thinking/wondering, to me it's moot, we are here, let's just make the best of it!
GBCN disclaimer - I'm not saying abortions should be illegal by posting this. Just that the author overestimates the positive impact an abortion would have had on her mother's life just as much as the pro-lifers overestimate the positive impact the lack of abortion had on the world because of their existence.
Thank you for posting this. ITA.
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out why this is sooo much better than what the OP accuses the pro-life movement of doing...other than, you know, the fact that it's the "right" side doing it.
WRT interactions and reactions to AW's posts, let's hear it for another abortion thread that devolves.
And people wonder why we don't hear more from social conservatives (lurkers or otherwise) on this board.
aw- Is there a difference between actively killing something and denying it something that will kill it.
Like killing a fetus is murder, but denying someone healthcare for a condition isn't? The second would be God's work then? And the first would obviously be man, right?
What about taking people off life-support. Is that God's will or man's when that person dies. Man takes him off support and God let's him die?
This is fascinating to me.
I can't answer for everyone. This is just my opinion. I believe that God has the ability to step in and save us in extreme circumstances. He knows that you're going to have that abortion even before you have it. That doesn't mean He made you have the abortion, just that He knows the choices we are going to make before we even make them. He chooses when to step in and save someone from their own sinful choices just like He chooses whose hearts to unharden and hear the Truth.
Killing a fetus is murder to me because God created that life and you are making the choice to end it. The life of the fetus is in God's hands. Let's say that child is born and it develops a condition (which was not God's fault - I believe all suffering and disease is the result of our own sin) and after prayerful consideration decides not to treat it with conventional medicine. They deny their child the chemo or vaccination that could have prevented death. I do not believe they are rseponsible for killing their child. I believe they are being consistent in their views. Just as they left the life of the fetus in God's hands, they are leaving the life of their child in God's hands.
I'm not saying I wouldn't give my child chemo or that I don't vaccinate my kids, I'm just trying to show you how these two views can be consistent.
There is a difference to me between directly causing someone's death (murder) and allowing death to happen on God's terms. I guess it's the difference between having an abortion and giving other people the freedom to make the choice for themselves. Some Christians would argue that by voting pro-choice you are part of the murder just like some people would argue that by denying chemo you are part of the "murder" of your child.
I have a hard time applauding anyone's "what if" narrative.Similar to what Michelle said, who knows what would happen to women if they had abortions v. raising their children. We have no way of knowing what would have happened and speculating that they would have been wildly successful is almost silly. It's the same as when people in the pro-life movement say that the person who could have cured cancer by now may have been aborted. Maybe. Maybe he was killed in a car accident at 13. We don't know and we'll never know, now will we?
Especially for women who are already experiencing traumatic circumstances, we'd all like to think they could have become great journalists, doctors, teachers, etc but maybe they would have been in the same place in a few years.
In regards to the anger over the "simple" "Put it up for adoption!" suggestion, I understand the anger. At the same time, I think that is the least discussed option. Adoptees and adoption overall still carries a stigma. Less than abortion, of course, but it's there. People don't like to talk about it. It makes people uncomfortable. Everyone knows what adoption is at its most basic definition but they aren't well informed.
I think women, especially young women, need to be well-educated about all of their choices, including the mental, physical, and emotional consequences of all of them. There is no easy, comfortable solution to an unplanned pregnancy.
My mom was 16 when she got pregnant with my older sister. She was incredibly smart, and had already gotten early admissions to college, etc, etc... Abortion was legal, but frowned upon obviously, so when she got knocked up and her loser bf proposed, she dropped out of school and got married at her parents insistence. She had a second kid with him, divorced, got married to another guy and got pregnant again, and then divorced again. By 23 she had three kids and two divorces under her belt.
Unfortunately she grew up with lots of her own issues and abuse. It made her extremely codependent and choose men who were terrible for her, and us kids. In over 30 years every single one of her boyfriends has been an addict or an abuser. Every single man she had in the house while we were growing up was either emotionally, physically, or sexually abusive to her and us kids.
I still have my own issues, but I have overcome a lot to get where I am. I have to imagine it would have just been easier for everyone had us kids not been born.