Seriously? Put on the big girl underwear and vote for Romney if that is your inclination. But don't act as if this board made you do it. Own your vote.
Meh. It wasn't just Kuus. Read through that thread and there are other posters talking about how they would support cutting our military spending in half. And read the second ammendment thread and look at how many other people are willing to restrict access to ammo or would like to see the Constitution rewritten on this issue. It's not one person, it's a combo of a bunch of stuff.
but it's still just a handful of people on a random message board...
Let's not pretend that if this board suddenly had a bunch of very vocal and VERY conservative posters talking about what their perfect country would look like, some of you wouldn't start wondering how many people out there truly feel like that and it might make you a little worried.
AW, I hear you on the dislike of either candidate. While there is rarely a perfect candidate, it seems that more than ever, the choice is simply who do I want to vote against, not for. So I might vote for a 3rd party candidate like Gary Johnson.
As for fear-mongering on both sides, it's so effective. While I give in to the fear sometimes, I don't truly think that any of the following are likely to fundamentally change in the next 4 years with either candidate: abortion laws, gun laws, military presence.
And few of the things I would LIKE to see change are likely to, either: national legalization of gay marriage, decriminalization of marijuana, etc. If Obama or the Democrats really cared about legalizing gay marriage, why wasn't this accomplished in the 111th congress? They had the presidency and a majority in both houses.
This all goes back to political capital. Most of these guys are just giant pussies (pardon) because they don't want to take personal career risks to do the right thing.
Since I don't feel any of the BIG things are going to change, this is why I feel comfortable assigning the economy as my #1 priority in the voting booth this year.
My wildcard issue is healthcare. I need to educate myself about what 3rd parties or Republicans are proposing as a replacement before I know whether I support the repeal of ACA. We need plenty of what's in there (coverage for pre-existing, etc.) but I'm hopeful that someone has a better way to do it.
What state are you in? There are only six states that even matter this year, and if you're not in one of them, then you can rest assured your apathy or third-party write in won't make one bit of difference.
Ohio. Where we cling to our guns and our religion. But only in the rural areas. lol
And I'm sorry that you think the media spends too much time covering horrific murders. When someone in my neighborhood gets shot (or when we have 4 people shot by one shooter as we did earlier this summer) I can't even get the word that it occurxeroxing the local media, much less the national outlets. If it wasn't for the police list serv or my own ears hearing the shots I would never even know that most shootings in my neighborhood happen. I guess the DC media is afraid to cover it because it would result in gun control.
Oh, please. The media picks and chooses which murders they want to cover. I'm talking about national news. Every day they have a large selection of horrific crimes to cover. Maybe my tinfoil hat is on a little too tightly, but it seems to me like lately they are choosing to only cover a specific type. And as we can see on this board, the coverage they have chosen is starting a gun control debate. I'm sorry, but I think it's deliberate.
so which type of murders committed with guns do you think shouldn't start a gun control debate?
I'll be honest, I think it's completely odd to vote for someone based on what an extreme person (aka Kuus) posts on the internet.
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Meh. It wasn't just Kuus. Read through that thread and there are other posters talking about how they would support cutting our military spending in half. And read the second ammendment thread and look at how many other people are willing to restrict access to ammo or would like to see the Constitution rewritten on this issue. It's not one person, it's a combo of a bunch of stuff.
I have to say, as the person who was most espousing cutting the military by half, that I have absolutely no power to do anything of the sort.
...and it was a discussion of how out of kilter our military spending is, as compared with the rest of the world. Like, we could cut our military by 90%, and still have a bigger military budget than every single country in the world, except China, and then only by a bit. Half still places us way, way, WAY beyond everybody else.
And, taken as a % of GDP, it's only two countries in the middle east who pay more for defense than us.
Part of the whole thing, too, is parsing out what the military is doing, and budgeting (and setting goals and expectations) separately. So, have a jobs program that's assessed for success and failure based on whether people get jobs. Have humanitarian programs that are assessed on humanitarian grounds. Sucking all that stuff into the military budget doesn't serve anybody well, including the military.
Honestly, I'd expect that you could get behind cuts in military spending so that we could take those funds and (a.) keep them in taxpayers' pockets, and/or (b.) pay for domestic programs, like fixing roads and bridges.
Seriously? Put on the big girl underwear and vote for Romney if that is your inclination. But don't act as if this board made you do it. Own your vote.
I think at the end of it, we all own our votes. But what's the harm in talking about things that may have influenced in your decision-making process. No one here can make me do anything, but the things I read here, see in the news, or witness in my real life can and do have an effect on what I finally decide. Do they not for you?
Oh yeah, AW is totally crazy for being scared by the other side. That's SO silly!
can't.stop.laughing.
AW - lots of people vote for the lesser of two evils. It's probably the norm, actually. I don't think it's ridiculous to be worried about what a 2nd term president, who has opposite views to you, will do. On the flip side, it's unlikely that he'll have a huge majority in the House/Senate, so it's not like Democrats could do whatever they wanted. Personally, I think the economy is the most important this election season, so a lot of my vote will hinge on that.
Well, you can rest assured that people who want to amend the 2nd Amendment are not going to get any traction. Hell, we couldn't get the damn Equal Rights Amendment passed. You think some lefty pacifists could get support to repeal the 2nd Amendment? Ain't happening.
The biggest way that Obama can impact 2nd Amendment rights relates to judicial appointments. (But I honestly haven't paid enough attention to things to know if any of his appointees have ruled on 2nd Amendment issues and if so, how they've ruled.) With a Republican-controlled House, I don't see any federal gun control legislation passing any time soon.
You should join the NRA. You would love the lifetime subscription my H gets to American Rifleman. I occasionally flip through it in the bathroom and it's basically filled with "OBAMA'S GOING TO COME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND TAKE YOUR GUNS! AND STEAL YOUR BABIES! AND KICK YOUR PUPPIES!"
Seriously? Put on the big girl underwear and vote for Romney if that is your inclination. But don't act as if this board made you do it. Own your vote.
I think at the end of it, we all own our votes. But what's the harm in talking about things that may have influenced in your decision-making process. No one here can make me do anything, but the things I read here, see in the news, or witness in my real life can and do have an effect on what I finally decide. Do they not for you?
I see your point here. I've been right-leaning for several years, but in the past month had a bit of a personal political crisis because of Facebook, of all stupid things. I got in so many arguments with ignorant Chik-Fil-A loving bigots that I thought to myself "Something feels very wrong here -- I can't possibly vote for the same people as these half-wits." But then I realize I could say the exact same thing as a Democrat.
For every racist Republican, I can find you a homophobe or antisemitic Democrat.
But then I realized, and must keep reminding myself, is that these people don't reflect on their political parties. They reflect on humankind as the flawed group we are. If all it took to invalidate an entire party was one jack-ass holding a misspelled, hateful sign on national tv, or someone listing an extreme political "wishlist" on this board, where would we be?
I'll be honest, I think it's completely odd to vote for someone based on what an extreme person (aka Kuus) posts on the internet.
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Meh. It wasn't just Kuus. Read through that thread and there are other posters talking about how they would support cutting our military spending in half. And read the second ammendment thread and look at how many other people are willing to restrict access to ammo or would like to see the Constitution rewritten on this issue. It's not one person, it's a combo of a bunch of stuff.
I thought the point they were making is that one *could* cut our military in half and we'd *still* have the biggest military. Not that they were saying we should.
I think most libs/dems think we should cut military at least a bit, but I know for me personally going back to pre 9/11 works.
You should join the NRA. You would love the lifetime subscription my H gets to American Rifleman. I occasionally flip through it in the bathroom and it's basically filled with "OBAMA'S GOING TO COME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND TAKE YOUR GUNS! AND STEAL YOUR BABIES! AND KICK YOUR PUPPIES!"
DH is a member. I skim through American Rifleman, but the only things I ever find interesting are the reader submitted stories about how they pulled their guns on home intruders. I love hearing about the 80-year-old grandmas.
I have a feeling our DHs would get along. Or at least enjoy buying massive amounts of ammo and going shooting together. Someone in the other thread asked why someone would need 1000 rounds of ammo. They could burn through that in an afternoon easily. lol
I think at the end of it, we all own our votes. But what's the harm in talking about things that may have influenced in your decision-making process. No one here can make me do anything, but the things I read here, see in the news, or witness in my real life can and do have an effect on what I finally decide. Do they not for you?
I see your point here. I've been right-leaning for several years, but in the past month had a bit of a personal political crisis because of Facebook, of all stupid things. I got in so many arguments with ignorant Chik-Fil-A loving bigots that I thought to myself "Something feels very wrong here -- I can't possibly vote for the same people as these half-wits." But then I realize I could say the exact same thing as a Democrat.
For every racist Republican, I can find you a homophobe or antisemitic Democrat.
But then I realized, and must keep reminding myself, is that these people don't reflect on their political parties. They reflect on humankind as the flawed group we are. If all it took to invalidate an entire party was one jack-ass holding a misspelled, hateful sign on national tv, or someone listing an extreme political "wishlist" on this board, where would we be?
Oh yeah, AW is totally crazy for being scared by the other side. That's SO silly!
can't.stop.laughing.
AW - lots of people vote for the lesser of two evils. It's probably the norm, actually. I don't think it's ridiculous to be worried about what a 2nd term president, who has opposite views to you, will do. On the flip side, it's unlikely that he'll have a huge majority in the House/Senate, so it's not like Democrats could do whatever they wanted. Personally, I think the economy is the most important this election season, so a lot of my vote will hinge on that.
I don't think she is crazy for being scared by the other side in itself - I am just kind of scratching my head that the comments of a few posters (not even the majority of liberals here on this board) have led to that fear/concern.
See! Obama has done both too much and too little on the subject. If that's not a moderate voice, I don't know what is.
LOL, right? I have some strong liberal ways, and he disappointed them all. Waiting so painfully long to support gay marriage? Extending the Patriot Act? Increasing prosecution of marijuana, even medically prescribed? Increasing deportations of illegal immigrants?
Come the fuck on Obama, where is the crazy hippie liberal Michael Savage et al were quaking in their boots over?
Also, one day I will learn how to spell amendment correctly. Ack.
I, however, will not.
AW, I do understand. I don't see worrying about the 2nd amendment under a liberal administration as any different from worrying about abortion rights under a conservative one. It's a valid concern no matter how much people like to mock the "clinging to guns" mentality.
(you know what's funny about the fact that I constnatly find myself on the side of the pro-gun people in these debates? I don't even OWN a gun. I've got friend and family who aren ethusiasts, but I don't have a single firearm to my name. Nor am I particularly hankering to change that. *shrug*)
Anyway...you have to look at how much sway anybody is likely to have on your pet topics. I think checking into the judicial appointments Obama is likely to make/has made and their record on gun control would be your best bet for actual facts to help make a decision about which evil is in fact lesser on this topic (or whether they're about equal and you're cool with 3rd party). It's not hysterical to worry in general. It is a bit much to let that worry, born out of nothing but idle internet debate, actually govern your decision making.
AW, I do understand. I don't see worrying about the 2nd amendment under a liberal administration as any different from worrying about abortion rights under a conservative one. It's a valid concern no matter how much people like to mock the "clinging to guns" mentality.
IMHO, it's different because, in reality, while gun control legislation is being curtailed and eliminated and overturned... more and more laws are restricting abortion rights.
So, while I can see that the two are similar in terms of the fear factor, don't you see that the contemporary climate makes fear around reproductive rights much more grounded than fear around gun rights?
AW, I do understand. I don't see worrying about the 2nd amendment under a liberal administration as any different from worrying about abortion rights under a conservative one. It's a valid concern no matter how much people like to mock the "clinging to guns" mentality.
IMHO, it's different because, in reality, while gun control legislation is being curtailed and eliminated and overturned... more and more laws are restricting abortion rights.
So, while I can see that the two are similar in terms of the fear factor, don't you see that the contemporary climate makes fear around reproductive rights much more grounded than fear around gun rights?
I said I understand the concern. Not that I understand acting based on that concern without actual facts.
I agree that the current trend is for gun control to be on the downswing while reproductive rights curtailment is on the upswing. That's why my concerns about repro rights trump my concerns about gun control any day of the week and twice on tuesdays. I just suggested that aw actually look into it, rather than take our (liberal) word for it.
I don't think I can pinpoint one specific thing Obama has said and done that scares me on this issue. I think overall it's just an attitude that I've heard him express about people like me that makes me side-eye him. It's the "clinging to their guns and their religion" stuff that makes me think he doesn't truly understand or agree with why the majority of gun owners feel so strongly about their right to bear arms. I guess I don't trust that he (just like any other candidate running for President) is being completely honest about how he truly feels about this issue. At least with Romney I kind of know where he stands (or at least who is pulling the puppet strings). Obama feels like a wild card to me sometimes.
To be honest, I'm surrounded by very few liberals in my life - two sisters and one MIL. But none of them have ever discussed wanting to change the Constitution on this issue like people discussed in that thread. And none of them have ever talked about the military the way some people did yesterday in the other thread. I guess I'm left wondering how many liberals really feel that way and whether or not I should be scared about it. Couple that with what I feel like is an agenda by the media right now to suddenly highlight every shooting happening in this country in order to set a stage for a gun control debate and I don't really know what to think...
Honestly, gun control is the last thing you should worry about. No politician wants to take the issue on seriously, and I've seen no indication whatsoever at all that Obama is even much interested in it.
There's just very little upside for a politician to take it on. The second you even think of talking about it, you've got the NRA and their huge coffers aimed squarely at you. You're going to face challenges in the Supreme Court. In order to avoid that, you'd have to pass a constitutional amendment and it's never going to pass. And even if it was possible to pass it, we've seen before that making something illegal doesn't change the culture of the country - remember Prohibition, or more currently the War on Drugs? You might as well just beat your head against a wall, because all you've done is make guns a profitable and dangerous black market commodity.
As to not knowing how Obama feels - you contradict yourself. "They cling to their guns and their relgion" turns you off and makes you uneasy, right? So don't accuse him, in your next breath, of being dishonest. So, deep down, maybe he thinks your religion and guns are tacky. That doesn't mean he doesn't respect that you have the constitutional right to both.
The dishonest one, IMO, is Romney, who is willing to be whoever he thinks he has to be in order to be elected this week, and will be someone completely different next week, next year, or five years from now. A few years back he was not only pro-choice but PASSIONATELY pro-choice. He described it like it was a definining issue for him, a line in the sand that couldn't be crossed.
He goes with whatever he perceives to be popular, like the kid who goes from professing he loves Bon Jovi to loving Nirvana when they break big - and sees nothing contradictory at all about that. He likes their pretty songs but he don't know what it means.
Personally, I'd be much more uneasy with that type of guy who could do or become anything than with the guy that probably doesn't agree with me a whole lot but is less prone to huge swings, and understands that in the end neither side really gets all of what they want.
I must add that I'm curious about your position on defense. Why does the idea of cutting the defense budget appall you so? It seems pretty clear that we could still be the strongest country in the world without being mightier than the next 10 nations added together - and when half of those nations are our allies anyway, it seems a bit of overkill. I just never understand why the military budget is sancrosanct when people talk of slashing the budget, as if there couldn't possibly be a lot of bloat in the military. Yet jokes about $10 screws and $200 hammers have been around almost as long as we've had a standing army.
And personally, as certain as I am that our founding fathers wanted to ensure that people had the right to bear arms in order to prevent tyranny, I'm also sure that they never intended us to have a standing, professional army.
AW - serious question. Are you opposed to any military cuts and even some modest forms of gun control (ie limiting who could own assault rifles, limits on ammo, background checks on those who purchase, etc)?
Are there ANY forms of gun control you might support or is it just a free-for-all?
AW, I do understand. I don't see worrying about the 2nd amendment under a liberal administration as any different from worrying about abortion rights under a conservative one. It's a valid concern no matter how much people like to mock the "clinging to guns" mentality.
IMHO, it's different because, in reality, while gun control legislation is being curtailed and eliminated and overturned... more and more laws are restricting abortion rights.
So, while I can see that the two are similar in terms of the fear factor, don't you see that the contemporary climate makes fear around reproductive rights much more grounded than fear around gun rights?
ITA.
Also, I'm baffled by AW sporting her tinfoil hat when it comes to the recent shootings and the media attention surrounding them. Let's take a look:
Aurora, CO shootings - In a crowded movie theater. Highest number of casualties in a shooting in contemporary American history.
Oak Creek, WI shootings - Multiple victims and a house of worship was targeted.
Family Research Council shooting - FRC has been in the media lots.
I don't see why these shootings would not have been covered in the media and given the recent timing of all of them, the gun debate is inevitable.
IMHO, it's different because, in reality, while gun control legislation is being curtailed and eliminated and overturned... more and more laws are restricting abortion rights.
So, while I can see that the two are similar in terms of the fear factor, don't you see that the contemporary climate makes fear around reproductive rights much more grounded than fear around gun rights?
ITA.
Also, I'm baffled by AW sporting her tinfoil hat when it comes to the recent shootings and the media attention surrounding them. Let's take a look:
Aurora, CO shootings - In a crowded movie theater. Highest number of casualties in a shooting in contemporary American history.
Oak Creek, WI shootings - Multiple victims and a house of worship was targeted.
Family Research Council shooting - FRC has been in the media lots.
I don't see why these shootings would not have been covered in the media and given the recent timing of all of them, the gun debate is inevitable.
I would argue all the recent shootings contribute to a climate of fear about guns, and make anti-2nd amendment legislation more likely. Many politicians came out for more gun restrictions in the wake of Aurora, incl Obama. I think it was y4m who posted a link earlier.
AW- I think a lot of people struggle w/ who to vote for, from time to time. You just have to go with your gut. I actually think it's fine not to vote for anyone if you don't have anyone you support. I usually pick the lesser of two evils.
Caden, you may be right re: gun control, but maybe I misread, but I got the sense that AW believes there's some sort of media conspiracy here given the coverage of these events.
As for AW's vote - she can vote for whoever she wants, for whatever reason she wants. But this board hardly represents the general public.
but it's still just a handful of people on a random message board...
Let's not pretend that if this board suddenly had a bunch of very vocal and VERY conservative posters talking about what their perfect country would look like, some of you wouldn't start wondering how many people out there truly feel like that and it might make you a little worried.
Reading extreme conservatives on the internet does actually make me quite a bit more than a little worried. I find the level of gun violence in this country appalling. I am terrified by the hate I see spewed on the internet against gay people, poor people, immigrants, women who want to make their own reproductive choices.
But one of the semi-functional things about our political system is that it inherently prevents extremists on either side from gaining much traction or doing too much damage to the country. My liberal point of view would never get me elected, and neither Obama nor any other national politician will ever be able to accomplish the things I want them to accomplish. And, on the flip side, no conservative politician will ever be able to accomplish all of the things right wing internet zealots want.
Also, I'm baffled by AW sporting her tinfoil hat when it comes to the recent shootings and the media attention surrounding them. Let's take a look:
Aurora, CO shootings - In a crowded movie theater. Highest number of casualties in a shooting in contemporary American history.
Oak Creek, WI shootings - Multiple victims and a house of worship was targeted.
Family Research Council shooting - FRC has been in the media lots.
I don't see why these shootings would not have been covered in the media and given the recent timing of all of them, the gun debate is inevitable.
I would argue all the recent shootings contribute to a climate of fear about guns, and make anti-2nd amendment legislation more likely. Many politicians came out for more gun restrictions in the wake of Aurora, incl Obama. I think it was y4m who posted a link earlier.
AW- I think a lot of people struggle w/ who to vote for, from time to time. You just have to go with your gut. I actually think it's fine not to vote for anyone if you don't have anyone you support. I usually pick the lesser of two evils.
Can you show me where Obama said that, specifically? Because IIRC, his response was exactly the same as Romney's - we should enforce current gun legislation, but stop short of curtailing an individual's right to own guns.
Aw, you can pick any reason you want to vote for a candidate. I just hope it would be a little more informed than "some people on the internet are too liberal."