NYT on the GOP

[heyjude]

The Republican Attack on Muslims


The Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson is drawing criticism over the bigoted comments he has been making recently about Muslims. It is well deserved, and is not a matter of “P.C. culture,” as Mr. Carson has claimed. Nor does Mr. Carson represent some minor fringe element in the Republican Party.

This latest sordid mess to arise from the G.O.P. nomination contest touches on bedrock American values, constitutional principles and American history. It reflects a pernicious habit among the leaders of the Republican Party to play with fire by pandering to an angry, disaffected and heavily white base by demonizing selected minorities. Muslims are just the current target.

Mr. Carson declared Sunday on ”Meet the Press” that Muslims are unfit to run for president because a president’s faith should be “consistent with the Constitution.” Later, he told the newspaper The Hill that Islamic Shariah law isn’t consistent with the Constitution because “Muslims feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”

Leave aside for a moment the unintentionally funny spectacle of a member of the current Republican Party declaring that religion should be kept out of public life, and that Mr. Carson, as an African-American, is a member of a much belittled minority. The freedom of religion embedded in the First Amendment rules out the very idea of a religious test for public office, as John F. Kennedy so eloquently argued and then proved by becoming the first Catholic president.


As for Shariah law, Catholicism has canon law and Judaism has the Halakha and nobody is painting them as threats to the republic — at least not this year.

Following Mr. Carson’s comments, some Republicans tried to suggest that anti-Muslim feelings existed only in parts of the party’s grass-roots base. Some argued that former President George W. Bush drew a line between the country’s antiterrorism efforts after 9/11 and a broader campaign against Muslims. “We’ve worked so hard to try to make it clear that that isn’t the case,” said Tony Fratto, who was a press aide to Mr. Bush. “But each time somebody does this kind of thing, it makes it harder.”

But Mr. Carson is hardly alone in his demagogy. Donald Trump has accused President Obama of being foreign born, and is continuing to stoke suspicions that Mr. Obama is a Muslim — a myth that a disturbing number of Republicans believe. Last week, Mr. Trump welcomed a question from a man who asserted “we have a problem in this country, it’s called Muslims,” that “our current president is one,” and the man asked “when can we get rid of them?” Instead of telling the truth, that Mr. Obama is an American-born Christian, Mr. Trump said, “We’re going to be looking at that and plenty of other things.”

Senators Ted Cruz of Texas and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina publicly disagreed with Mr. Carson, but neither truly matters in the campaign or the party. Other Republican hopefuls — Governors Chris Christie of New Jersey and John Kasich of Ohio, and Jeb Bush at least deigned to acknowledge that Mr. Obama is American and is not Muslim. But these efforts have been tepid, at best, because the Republicans are playing to polls that show support for Muslims ranks far below other religious groups among Republicans and Republican-leaning voters.

The phenomenon isn’t new. Running for president in 2008, Senator John McCain was praised when a voter called Mr. Obama an Arab and Mr. McCain replied by calling him a “decent family man, citizen,” but he didn’t rebut the lie. Former President Bush sometimes said the right things, but instituted a system of detention, torture and trial that applies only to Muslims.

Anti-Muslim sentiment is playing out in the refugee crisis caused by hundreds of thousands of people, mostly Muslims, fleeing wars in the Middle East. The United States recently agreed to take an additional 30,000 refugees per year by 2017, but some conservatives are objecting, claiming they will provide a recruiting pool for radicals. Closing the country’s doors to Muslims would buy into Mr. Carson and Mr. Trump’s vilification and dishonor the thousands of Muslims who have joined Irish, Italians, Germans, French, Jews, Russians, Latinos, Africans and many others in becoming honorable citizens and perhaps, one day, president.

[smock]

I agree with most of the article, but not the characterization of McCain's response in 2008--he started his answer with "No ma'am" and ended with "He's not." It was pretty clear that he was telling her that Obama is not an Arab.

[tacosforlife]

Sept 23, 2015 9:23:13 GMT -5 smock said:

I agree with most of the article, but not the characterization of McCain's response in 2008--he started his answer with "No ma'am" and ended with "He's not." It was pretty clear that he was telling her that Obama is not an Arab.

Agreed.

And while if you really think about it, you could say that McCain countering the statement that Obama is an Arab with the decent family man line implies that Arabs can't be decent family men, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that he was responding off the cuff and contemporaneously. If it had been a prepared statement, I would raise my eyebrows, but he was clearly just trying to head off insanity by reaching for whatever non-crazy words he could find.

McCain opened the door to a lot of that crazy by selecting Sarah "Obama pals around with terrorists" Palin as his running mate, but by all accounts, that appears to be largely a failure of vetting rather than a purposeful attempt to stoke anti-Muslim sentiment. Maybe I'm naive and giving the guy too much credit, but that's my take on the situation.

[jeaniebueller]

Leave aside for a moment the unintentionally funny spectacle of a member of the current Republican Party declaring that religion should be kept out of public life

Right? Right? Right? Kim Davis, anyone?

[StrawberryBlondie]

I have a possibly naive question. Do American Muslims on the whole tend to vote democrat? My personal sample size of about 5 shows no pattern.

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2015 9:44:38 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I have a possibly naive question. Do American Muslims on the whole tend to vote democrat? My personal sample size of about 5 shows no pattern.

I don't have any personal anecdotes but my quick Googling tells me there was a lot of Muslim support for G.W. Bush in 2000. I was just thinking how one would think their beliefs would align more with the GOP's but the GOP as a whole has essentially shunned them so where does that leave them?

[ESF]

Sept 23, 2015 9:31:25 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Sept 23, 2015 9:23:13 GMT -5 smock said:

I agree with most of the article, but not the characterization of McCain's response in 2008--he started his answer with "No ma'am" and ended with "He's not." It was pretty clear that he was telling her that Obama is not an Arab.

Agreed.

And while if you really think about it, you could say that McCain countering the statement that Obama is an Arab with the decent family man line implies that Arabs can't be decent family men, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that he was responding off the cuff and contemporaneously. If it had been a prepared statement, I would raise my eyebrows, but he was clearly just trying to head off insanity by reaching for whatever non-crazy words he could find.

McCain opened the door to a lot of that crazy by selecting Sarah "Obama pals around with terrorists" Palin as his running mate, but by all accounts, that appears to be largely a failure of vetting rather than a purposeful attempt to stoke anti-Muslim sentiment. Maybe I'm naive and giving the guy too much credit, but that's my take on the situation.

Did you see the movie Game Change?  It was made for HBO.  It's about the selection of Palin as VP and what happened. It's obviously a fictitious account, but some key person from McCain's campaign (Nicole Wallace, I think her name was) said that it was uncomfortable to watch, and would not say that any part of it was untrue.  

Anyway, one of the themes in the movie is about how McCain absolutely did not want to go after Obama's character, how he didn't want to start talking about Rev Wright or birtherism or go in the anti-American angle, even though Palin and some of the advisors were pressing him.  It shows her getting frustrated and going off script and running with that angle, and McCain's horrified reaction over what his campaign had become.

This is a long way of saying that I mostly agree with you.    I don't think he wanted his campaign to go in the direction that it ultimately did.  The moment when he had to correct that woman who called Obama an Arab - it was just obvious that he was embarrassed, weak, and crushed by what his campaign had become. I remember seeing the clip on Rachel Maddow, and even then, before we knew of the Tea Party and Trump and all the ugly that would be born out of Sarah Palin's dog whistling,  Maddow remarked on how gut wrenching that scene was to watch.

That said, I hold him responsible for his failure to vet and his failure to lead.  And I hold him responsible for his failure to take responsibility for that to this day. Our political culture changed for the worse as a result of his VP choice, and he avoids any questions that would suggest he acknowledges that.  I would respect him again if he came out and apologized and owned it, and actually contributed to developing the kind of new leadership the GOP desperately needs.

[tacosforlife]

Sept 23, 2015 10:31:29 GMT -5 ESF said:

Sept 23, 2015 9:31:25 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Agreed.

And while if you really think about it, you could say that McCain countering the statement that Obama is an Arab with the decent family man line implies that Arabs can't be decent family men, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that he was responding off the cuff and contemporaneously. If it had been a prepared statement, I would raise my eyebrows, but he was clearly just trying to head off insanity by reaching for whatever non-crazy words he could find.

McCain opened the door to a lot of that crazy by selecting Sarah "Obama pals around with terrorists" Palin as his running mate, but by all accounts, that appears to be largely a failure of vetting rather than a purposeful attempt to stoke anti-Muslim sentiment. Maybe I'm naive and giving the guy too much credit, but that's my take on the situation.

Did you see the movie Game Change?  It was made for HBO.  It's about the selection of Palin as VP and what happened. It's obviously a fictitious account, but some key person from McCain's campaign (Nicole Wallace, I think her name was) said that it was uncomfortable to watch, and would not say that any part of it was untrue.  

Anyway, one of the themes in the movie is about how McCain absolutely did not want to go after Obama's character, how he didn't want to start talking about Rev Wright or birtherism or go in the anti-American angle, even though Palin and some of the advisors were pressing him.  It shows her getting frustrated and going off script and running with that angle, and McCain's horrified reaction over what his campaign had become.

This is a long way of saying that I mostly agree with you.    I don't think he wanted his campaign to go in the direction that it ultimately did.  The moment when he had to correct that woman who called Obama an Arab - it was just obvious that he was embarrassed, weak, and crushed by what his campaign had become. I remember seeing the clip on Rachel Maddow, and even then, before we knew of the Tea Party and Trump and all the ugly that would be born out of Sarah Palin's dog whistling,  Maddow remarked on how gut wrenching that scene was to watch.

That said, I hold him responsible for his failure to vet and his failure to lead.  And I hold him responsible for his failure to take responsibility for that to this day. Our political culture changed for the worse as a result of his VP choice, and he avoids any questions that would suggest he acknowledges that.  I would respect him again if he came out and apologized and owned it, and actually contributed to developing the kind of new leadership the GOP desperately needs.

I saw a part of the movie but not the whole thing. But I read the book, which was written by Mark Halperin and John Heilemann and based on their reporting of 2008 campaign (albeit anonymously sourced). So I'm familiar with the accounts that you're talking about. Yeah, Nicolle Wallace and Palin did NOT get along, and it was ultimately what led to Wallace being fired from the campaign. The stories about trying to prep Palin for the debate are horrifying.

And I agree wholeheartedly with you on the last paragraph. McCain had potential, and I was not initially terrified of the idea of him as president (although I was never going to support him). But the poor vetting of Palin properly was such a monumental failure of judgment that it really cast doubt on his ability to lead, to appoint Supreme Court justices, to appoint Cabinet members, and so forth.

[heyjude]

Count me as someone who didn't like McCain's defense of Obama for what he didn't say.

[cattledogkisses]

“Muslims feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”

Read more: pandce.proboards.com/thread/479357/nyt-on-gop#ixzz3mZrAEcLd


Give me a moment to catch my breath from laughing hysterically at any member of the current Republican Party saying something like this.

[heyjude]

Sept 23, 2015 10:49:46 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

“Muslims feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”

Read more: pandce.proboards.com/thread/479357/nyt-on-gop#ixzz3mZrAEcLd


Give me a moment to catch my breath from laughing hysterically at any member of the current Republican Party saying something like this.

Dude. Dude. QFT.

[YeahSure]

A clip from Powell interview on Islam

[scout8]

Sept 23, 2015 10:03:47 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

Sept 23, 2015 9:31:25 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Agreed.

And while if you really think about it, you could say that McCain countering the statement that Obama is an Arab with the decent family man line implies that Arabs can't be decent family men, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that he was responding off the cuff and contemporaneously. If it had been a prepared statement, I would raise my eyebrows, but he was clearly just trying to head off insanity by reaching for whatever non-crazy words he could find.

I am assuming it was because it was an off the cuff remark, but who knows. 

In general though I hate that the response is "no, he's not a Muslim." Because IMO the response should be, what does it matter.  I mean, I know that it matters a great deal to some what religion the president is. But as long as we are defending Obama by insisting he's not a Muslim, to me it seems that we are just feeding into the prejudice.

"We know you don't like Muslims but don't worry because he's not a Muslim! He's an American!" (because you know, Muslims cannot be American...)

I am quoting this because just liking it was not enough. So much this!!

[StrawberryBlondie]

Sept 23, 2015 13:52:53 GMT -5 Dig Ophelia said:

Sept 23, 2015 10:03:47 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

I am assuming it was because it was an off the cuff remark, but who knows. 

In general though I hate that the response is "no, he's not a Muslim." Because IMO the response should be, what does it matter.  I mean, I know that it matters a great deal to some what religion the president is. But as long as we are defending Obama by insisting he's not a Muslim, to me it seems that we are just feeding into the prejudice.

"We know you don't like Muslims but don't worry because he's not a Muslim! He's an American!" (because you know, Muslims cannot be American...)

Yes, it's still "othering".   By denying being a part of that group  and saying "No, he's not Muslim, he's a good American!", it wordlessly implies that the "other" are neither Americans or good people.  The response should be that it really doesn't matter and that it is no one's business because religion and government are separate.  This happens quite a bit in the Pagan community as well and is aggravating as hell.  

I do agree, but have a compulsive need to correct misinformation. Hence, I usually end up saying something like "no, he's not. But if he were, why would that matter/be a problem?"

I'd never really thought of that as othering, bit I'm going to think about that, now.

[heyjude]

The correct response is "no he's not but so what if he were?"

[WanderingWinoZ]

Sept 23, 2015 10:48:43 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Count me as someone who didn't like McCain's defense of Obama for what he didn't say.

But his defense was more than most GOP are doing today. 

[Deleted]

Like Seinfeld.
'Im not gay. Not that's there's anything wrong with that'