What makes a school "good"? (sort of @)

[ttt]

We're thinking of making an offer on a house and I'm looking at the schools my kids would go to, and this has me thinking about the whole education thing not just for them, but in general. These schools have good ratings by that great schools website, but that can't possibly give the whole picture.

So, how do you determine whether a school is good or not? What factors do you look at? I've heard on here numerous times that "test scores" can be a proxy for "white" or "high income" and this isn't something that should be a deciding factor, which makes sense.  But what do you use instead? When you talk about "a good school" what does that mean, exactly? 

[tres3]

A lot of factors. Community-Does the school foster a sense of community? Engagement-Are the teachers happy? Are the students happy? Leadership-Who is the principal can make a huge difference.

And then there are the things you won't know until you have a kid in the school. Some schools are really great for kids with LDs but not kids who are "middle of the road", some schools are great for high achieving kids but not great with support with kids who are struggling.

I have 3 different learners and I'm generally pleased with my kids school because they are all happy and having their needs mostly met, although some days I get frustrated. DS1 is accelerated for math by a grade which was great but this year has had some hiccups because of maternity leave. DS2 had his IEP meeting Friday went really well except for the psychologist didn't show so his plan isn't complete.. but they gave him a lot more support this year than previous years and DS3 is just happy and has a sweet teacher.  The fact that my 3 kids are all having a positive experience even though they are very different kids makes me think we have a "good" school. 

[frlcb]

In ATL? Or are you moving? I can't remember.

We looked at a lot of schools, charter and private and our public school. I think parental involvement, the facilities, things they offer, teacher turnover, class size, what schools it feeds into, happiness of families there, talking to current families is important. Our public school doesn't have the highest rating on greatschools for a number of reasons but it is a great school and in high demand.

[eddy]

I care less about the test scores. In general all of our schools are really good so I am looking at stuff like socio economic diversity, vibe of the parents, teacher satisfaction etc.

I feel like we hit the jackpot with our school. The teachers are awesome. The parents are chill, which honestly is the best aspect of our school. And we have nice diversity.

[summer]

I'm not in the States, so you may not want to listen to me, but what we did when choosing DD1's school was to schedule a short meeting with the principal (or assistant, or whoever deals with parents in that capacity) to find out what the goals are for the school, what they find important, how they discipline, how they deal with bullying, special needs, arts/music/sports, recess, etc. Those were the things that really told me what the school was about, more than test scores. In my opinion, if their overall outlook on these issues was in line with mine, then the right conditions are in the school for children to learn optimally. Naive as it may be, I just assume the actual educating- reading,writing and arithmatic - will happen because it's a school with hopefully at least decent teachers. 

[mrspez07]

Honestly, I'm not sure you really know until you are in it. I sent my kid to the "average" neighborhood school, and by that I mean both test scores and ratings. He's had two great teachers and is really happy so far. Maybe choicing him into another school would have had the same results.. There are good and bad teachers at every school and principals aren't always there during your whole time there.
I believe strongly that elementary school is a large part social for the kids, so being able to bike/walk or a short drive from school and friends houses is important. I have also been happy with the school community here, but again, it could happen just as easily at another school, and I didn't know until I got there.

[auntie]

I think what makes a school district "great" is very dependent on the student attending and the experience that is available to them based on their talents.

My godchild lives in a dreadful district (Philly), but she's bright and enriched enough to test into a terrific magnet (Masterman) so her individual experience has been a fabulous one.

I live in an award winning district. They do a phenomenal job with high achieving kids and with special education students who have significant impairments and will not be headed for independence in adulthood. They drop the ball on average kids, kids who are looking to enter the trades and some kids with IEPs for more subtle learning differences.

I think you have to look at the big picture, unless you know you will only be in-district for a short time. My district still doesn't have full day kindie, but they have a full range of sports, music, activities and AP options for older kids. Sometimes elementaries are the stronger performers in a district, sometimes things are more balanced.

IME, great districts tend to attract families who are committed to education which tends to keep the bar set higher than in average districts. Higher teacher salaries lead to better teachers because districts can be more selective.

[mrshandy]

Talk to parents that have their kids there, other teachers in the school system, teachers from the school. Our school does not have great test scores, but I heard nothing about good things and we had the va teacher of the year wgmhicj I thought was really cool.

[IIOY]

Sept 27, 2015 8:14:46 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure you really know until you are in it.

This. And even then, it's very difficult to draw comparisons with other schools because you have a sample size of one.

When we were debating public v. private, I did a lot of research and what I discovered is that there are no good, consistent metrics that will tell you what you need because there are so many factors, including your child's individual wants, needs, and abilities. I found the entire exercise frustrating, not least because visiting the schools gives you an idealized picture, not necessarily a realistic one. Talking to other parents who have been in the school long enough to provide informed opinions is probably your best option, although even those opinions will be skewed.

[Dumbledork]

I looked for diversity, good use of technology, student to teacher ratio, references on the principal, hands on, child focused curriculum, and strong art and music programs.

Bean goes to a 'choice school.' It's basically a magnet school, meaning it's a public school, but it has a unique curriculum and you have to apply to attend. Her school is a Chinese immersion, so she spends her whole day hearing, speaking, and writing in Chinese. Her teachers are awesome. This, plus the actual student body make up, covered diversity and curriculum. The only problem I've had is the inescapable AR program.

In the younger grades, each classroom has two teachers to around 20 kids. I chatted up a few teacher friends who knew the principal, and they all had nothing but good things to say.

The school is also somewhat new. Every room has SmartBoards that the teachers use well for hands on learning, and the school is physically connected to a county library so there's no problem bringing in or attending library visits.

I love it. I'd suggest finding what's important to you in a school and go from there. I care not at all about sport programs, so it never even made the list. It might for you though.

[chedifuen]

Possibly flame worthy, I think what goes on at home is far more important so we considered only the neighborhood and not the schools. Our school is title one, with low test scores but we love it there. My kids have had awesome teachers, smallish classes and tons of diversity.

[penguingrrl]

It can be really hard to parse the information until and unless you have kids in the district. Sites like greatschools are dangerous IME because they basically rate based on test scores.

When we moved to PA we went by greatschools, drove around the districts, asked Hs future colleages and still ended up horribly disappointed. The colleague who claimed they were good and was the only one in the department who had three school aged kids and lived in the district homeschooled and didn't mention that when H asked him about schools, so we took the fact that he had kids our kids ages and lived there as saying it was a good district. On paper it looked really good, driving around the buildings were nicely maintained, but it was nothing more than a test prep factory with a principal whose sole mission was improving the test scores. I wish we had thought to meet with the principal for a tour of the building before looking for housing up there because we would have caught on quickly, but we didn't realize that was done (and from a distance while H was working and I was prepping to move it wasn't really possible).

[jln]

I'd agree with what everyone else, that it's hard to judge until you have a child in the school.

One thing you can look at are the teachers salaries and length teachers have been at the school.

[NewOrleans]

I would look at the high school first to see its range of electives and dual credit programs, stuff like that, before I would look at the elementary schools. That gives you an idea of what opportunities your child is being prepared for.

I am extremely skeptical of any place bragging about STEM because they are not balancing a liberal education.

I would want to know the politics of school board members / clashes. Lol tres3. Seriously, though, if there has been conflict over banning books or such, you want to know that.

What assessments are given. Not just standardized tests: there are often district assessments or level assessments. A principal should be able to provide you with an assessment audit that states the purpose of each (what it measures) and the uses to which the results are put. If they can't, that flags that they are over testing, disorganized, or just testing but being data rich, information poor.

asdfjkl visited schools when she was moving. The principal showed her a computer lab and bragged about how they use it to test, yay tests! I would want to know what technology exists and to what uses it is put. Don't be dazzled by 1:1 technology. It amounts to shit if people aren't trained or gave no clue wtf to do with it.

Find out if the district offers tuition reimbursement as a benefit to teachers. This demonstrates they are investing in the faculty and fostering ongoing prof development. You can also see the school report card which will tell you the # of teachers with master's degrees.

[AJL]

This is the list of criteria for a good school for me (in no particular order):

- High level of community involvement
- High level of parental involvement
- High level of communication from faculty to parents
- Low teacher turnover
- Administrative support for teachers
- Student population diversity
- Resources available for students with learning challenges
- A good library with a dedicated librarian
- Small total school population
- Class size

I do not care about standardized testing scores or ratings. Those things do not give a true representation of whether a school is the right fit for your child and your family. 

[tres3]

To NewOrleans 's point definitely look at the local politics. Does the community support the school or do they have budget fights every year?  You don't necessarily want a district that will constantly raise taxes "for the schools".. but if a district is constantly deferring maintenance to make the budget work or increasing class sizes to make the budget work, be leery. 

[KateAggie]

Sept 27, 2015 8:20:09 GMT -5 mrshandy said:

Talk to parents that have their kids there, other teachers in the school system, teachers from the school. Our school does not have great test scores, but I heard nothing about good things and we had the va teacher of the year wgmhicj I thought was really cool.

This. What I've seen so far is that "good" schools seem to have one thing in common--parental involvement. When parents are also contributing to the school (with their time, not necessarily $$), everything seems to work better. Because then the administration, teachers and students feel supported. And this doesn't necessarily mean that there's a large SAH parent presence. So I'm not trying to say that.

[rugbywife]

So I have been thinking about this a lot. I have tried to think about where you would get the most honest representation of a school. I think school culture is the most important factor, one that impacts many daily aspects of school life for children. I think you could get an idea of this, in an honest and genuine way, at the following times:

-watch an entry/exit from start to finish. Watch what the kids are doing, what the teachers are doing, what parents are doing.
-get a school tour and ask for it to overlap with a break time (I hate booking them at that time because I am usually busy but it is the best time to see things). Watch how kids move through the halls, how do teachers/admin speak to them/interact with them, what is happening in classrooms/outside
-visit during a school assembly and ask to watch the assembly. Watch as students come in and leave as well as what happens during the assembly
-read the walls of the school, both in the hallways and classrooms. What do you see? Who is represented? Who isn't? Is there student voice? Student work? Is it inclusionary? Does it set a tone of high standards? Does it demonstrate a believe in scaffolding.

Also, my #1 indicator that good learning is taking place: students working in the hallway, in groups.

These are my suggestions. I can take or leave test scores.

[redwino]

Racial diversity is the most important thing to me, followed by class size and teacher turnover. Principal turnover is also important because no school can be successful with constant admin changes. Good community involvement and school atmosphere make a difference, imo. I think finding the best school is less important in elementary than in hs but I want to make sure my child's elementary school prepares her for hs.

[teflepi]

Sept 27, 2015 8:53:48 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Find out if the district offers tuition reimbursement as a benefit to teachers. This demonstrates they are investing in the faculty and fostering ongoing prof development. You can also see the school report card which will tell you the # of teachers with master's degrees.

I think this is a good one, especially in that they should be getting money from feds (Title II) to do so and if not, I think that speaks volumes.

I rarely look at tests.  Socio-economics plays a big part in this and often the school can be crap and still have high test scores simply by the socio-economics of the student body.

Involved admin, happy teachers/not continual complaining, after school offerings, diversity of staff and students, what goes on at board meetings, esp with parents .