Working without a work visa

[origami]

If you aren't allowed to work in the country you live in, and you got an opportunity to work for cash under the table would you do it?

Right now I have a volunteer job. Most of the work will be over mid-November and I was offered a real job for after that. I could keep the hours low, if I wanted, with the hope that no one would care if I got caught, but my visa is very clear that im not allowed to earn money here. WWYD?

[frlcb]

No, I wouldn't mess with visa rules

[mrsukyankee]

Nope, I wouldn't mess with visa issues.

[pittpurple]

Living in a country where I have no right to be made me really, really twitchy about doing anything at all that could get me deported. So any theoretical risks I would have taken in my younger life I would never, ever do here. The tradeoffs aren't worth it to me. If you can afford your life without breaking the law it seems obvious there's no need to potentially mess up your entire life.

Obviously I'm aware that people do lots of things in extenuating circumstances, but if you have been eating and paying your rent while volunteering, you really don't need to take this risk.

[GilliC]

I did it once, but the money was filtered through a very complicated network of companies. I was officially volunteering, and the money I was paid was technically a "living stipend for foreign students exploring the country." It was paid out to me in cash by an actually company that had this statement as their charter. Given that a company like this existed, I'm guessing it was something of a modus operandi in that locale and situation. I would never set something like that up on my own.

If I had a non-working residence visa, I wouldn't take on a regular job and work under the table. I might do odd jobs once in a while like pet-sitting for friends or selling a few handicrafts or baked goods to people I knew. But I'd probably just do it at cost, so it couldn't technically be considered income. Even then, I would usually just ask people to pay me back by buying me dinner or drinks.

[rupertpenny]

I would be very hesitant, and honestly I'd be more worried about the IRS somehow finding out I had income I wasn't reporting (I'm assuming you wouldn't report illegal income, IDK) than the immigration department where I live finding out.

But, I also know a lot of people who do technically illegal stuff here such as non-married partners living here on tourist visas and people having live-out nannies (yes, it's a deportable offense). Neither are a big deal and everyone does it. If that's the case in this situation I might do it too. I'm sure my parents would be disappointed in me for jumping off the bridge because everyone else was doing it haha.

[rupertpenny]

Oh, and it really sucks that you can't work. What a shitty policy.

[loira]

If I were younger, I probably would, depending on the country (I'm not sure anyone would have noticed if I'd earned money under the table in Brazil). I can't afford to mess around with visa stuff now, especially anything that might reflect badly on me as a residency sponsor to my H, or if we apply for my greencard.

[origami]

Alright thanks. I knew this but just wanted to talk myself into it because I HATE not being able to work. It sucks so much. I think I will offer to help her for a day or 2 and let her buy me some food as a thank-you.

[anna7602]

I was so paranoid about this that while I continued to work while living abroad, I essentially did so for free. I delayed all invoices and payments so that my official revenue was $0 for the full calendar year I was living abroad. (The following year, I was only there for six months, something that still ended up causing some issues with the French tax authorities.)

If our relocation had been permanent, I would have enlisted H's company to help me figure out how to get paid legally/work legally.

ETA: The work I was doing above was for clients back in the US, clients I hoped to retain (and have) after my experience living abroad ended. Everyone knew the deal and had no problem paying me later. It was obviously a very different situation than the one you describe.

[origami]

It's funny how different this board is from people I know IRL. It's unanimously a bad idea here. And people IRL think I'm insane for even questioning if I should do it. Apparently there are a lot of under the table jobs here. That shouldn't surprise me given the harsh visa rules, and the fact that this is Asia so there's "the rules" and then there's "what everyone does."

I told her I would work for free for 4 hrs/week for 1 month, then reevaluate. I want the work experience because it's something that will help me in the future, but I'm not committing to so many hours that I would feel like I'm volunteering for involuntary servitude.

[GilliC]

Oct 18, 2015 9:13:59 GMT -5 origami said:

It's funny how different this board is from people I know IRL. It's unanimously a bad idea here. And people IRL think I'm insane for even questioning if I should do it. Apparently there are a lot of under the table jobs here. That shouldn't surprise me given the harsh visa rules, and the fact that this is Asia so there's "the rules" and then there's "what everyone does."

I told her I would work for free for 4 hrs/week for 1 month, then reevaluate. I want the work experience because it's something that will help me in the future, but I'm not committing to so many hours that I would feel like I'm volunteering for involuntary servitude.

I do think it's very location-specific. Here in Norway, if you hire someone to clean or walk your dog and don't report it, you (the employer) are on the hook in a big way as well as the person working illegally. In China, no one would really blink because foreigners get a free pass on so much, and there's so much bureaucracy and confusion that a lot of people just back channel everything because it's easier.

For legitimate jobs here, getting a work visa is usually easier than working black. In China, notsomuch.

[toutsuite]

Where are you located? It may not be possible to work on the local economy where you are but if you are in the Capitol city or a major city there may be other options to work for a u.s. Entity who would sponsor a visa for you. Its complicated but still possible.

Ditto others who said they wouldn't do it under the table. Too many risks involved to include deportation and also tax implications if you lie about that come filing season.

[origami]

Oct 25, 2015 8:56:46 GMT -5 toutsuite said:

Where are you located? It may not be possible to work on the local economy where you are but if you are in the Capitol city or a major city there may be other options to work for a u.s. Entity who would sponsor a visa for you. Its complicated but still possible.

Ditto others who said they wouldn't do it under the table. Too many risks involved to include deportation and also tax implications if you lie about that come filing season.

im in Seoul. You are right that I could get a work visa if I had a company sponsor me. (You must have a sponsor to get a work visa here.) Doesn't have to be a US company. But you have to work in certain approved sectors and generally speaking work full-time (which means horrific hours here) to be considered because companies don't want to bother with the process for PT workers. My field is not the right sector and I have kids to watch so working horrific hours like my DH are also not happening. My only other option is "working remotely" for a US company and not getting a visa at all. So far no dice with those jobs.

[toutsuite]

I don't know what your specialty is but what about working with dod or the embassy? They can locally hire people or if there are non-usg affiliated organizations connected with either you could work for one of those. I don't believe a work visa is necessary for either.

[origami]

Oct 25, 2015 9:30:38 GMT -5 toutsuite said:

I don't know what your specialty is but what about working with dod or the embassy? They can locally hire people or if there are non-usg affiliated organizations connected with either you could work for one of those. I don't believe a work visa is necessary for either.

Even the few positions they allow civilians to apply for still give precedence to embassy/military families and there are a ton because the US has so many bases here. I was not even allowed to apply for a secretarial position at the embassy because im not from an embassy/military family.

Thank you for brainstorming with me though!!

[4speedy]

Can you get an admin job with your Dh's company?

[origami]

Nov 3, 2015 6:46:34 GMT -5 4speedy said:

Can you get an admin job with your Dh's company?

To be honest, I haven't tried because I assumed you needed to speak Korean, and b/c their workplace is FAR. So working 8 hours there means you're gone 11, and I just don't want to be away from the kids that long. I'm only interested in part-time jobs, unless something amazing came along. Working there would not be amazing, hahaha.

[wise_rita]

Oct 18, 2015 9:13:59 GMT -5 origami said:

It's funny how different this board is from people I know IRL. It's unanimously a bad idea here. And people IRL think I'm insane for even questioning if I should do it. Apparently there are a lot of under the table jobs here. That shouldn't surprise me given the harsh visa rules, and the fact that this is Asia so there's "the rules" and then there's "what everyone does."

That's just the culture there.  That's how it's often done, so it doesn't surprise me that that is what they're saying.  Story time!

I have a Canadian friend who went to South Korea to teach English legally.  When she got there she realized working under the table teaching English is far, far more lucrative so she (and her boyfriend) did that instead.  "Everyone does it."

Everything was all well and good until a Korean whose job they took got pissed off, so called the immigration authorities on their school.  The school got raided, and these 2 Canadians got caught.  They were thrown in immigration jail for a week, no toothbrush, no showers, no nothing.  They were separated by sex, but a guard was nice enough to shuffle notes between the two sections for them, so they had some communication.

There were lots of Philippino cleaners in there, one woman found out she was pregnant in there (I think a guard brought her a test), and there was a Russian woman (clearly a hooker) beaten so badly she didn't wake up for days.  They legit thought she was going to die, and the guards gave zero shits.

After a week of literally no information, no access to a lawyer or embassy, only rice for food, toilets right out in the open and minimal contact between each other they "got out".  They were escorted, in handcuffs, directly onto a plane to Canada.  My friend said she's never been so embarrassed, being escorted onto a commercial plane full of normal people, in handcuffs and without any personal hygiene for a full week.  The flight attendant brought her booze immediately and was really compassionate, which makes me think this is not a rare occurrence.  I don't know how they knew to put them on a flight to the right city, but maybe they just chose Vancouver because it's the nearest/cheapest destination.

All of their belongings, including their cat, had to be shipped by their roommate to Canada.  Roommate had to bring their passports to the jail, but I'm not sure how he was contacted to bring them.  As far as I remember they had zero communication with anybody outside the jail.

So yeah, that's their crazy story!

"Everybody does it" so I imagine there are 1,000 drama free stories for every one of these.  And these two got thrown under the bus by a jilted employee (no Korean wants their kids to learn English from a Korean, anyway).  Without that person they no doubt would've gotten away with it.

To add insult to injury, they tried to go back 2 years and 11 months later for a wedding (one of their brothers).  They were denied at the border because they said they were barred for 3 years.  It wouldn't surprise me if that is bullshit, but they didn't make it to that wedding.   

I do think my friend is super bad ass for having been in Korean jail.  She laughs about it now, but it was no laughing matter at the time!
 

[aMrsin09]

Are you looking at job jobs or just picking up work here and there?

I "worked" when we were in France, but somebody would have had a really hard time proving it. I was doing day work ironing or laundry or other misc tasks on the yachts. Got paid at the end of each day in cash. The three weeks before or at the end of the "seasons" could be rather profitable

[origami]

Nov 19, 2015 18:57:43 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Oct 18, 2015 9:13:59 GMT -5 origami said:

It's funny how different this board is from people I know IRL. It's unanimously a bad idea here. And people IRL think I'm insane for even questioning if I should do it. Apparently there are a lot of under the table jobs here. That shouldn't surprise me given the harsh visa rules, and the fact that this is Asia so there's "the rules" and then there's "what everyone does."

That's just the culture there.  That's how it's often done, so it doesn't surprise me that that is what they're saying.  Story time!

I have a Canadian friend who went to South Korea to teach English legally.  When she got there she realized working under the table teaching English is far, far more lucrative so she (and her boyfriend) did that instead.  "Everyone does it."

Everything was all well and good until a Korean whose job they took got pissed off, so called the immigration authorities on their school.  The school got raided, and these 2 Canadians got caught.  They were thrown in immigration jail for a week, no toothbrush, no showers, no nothing.  They were separated by sex, but a guard was nice enough to shuffle notes between the two sections for them, so they had some communication.

There were lots of Philippino cleaners in there, one woman found out she was pregnant in there (I think a guard brought her a test), and there was a Russian woman (clearly a hooker) beaten so badly she didn't wake up for days.  They legit thought she was going to die, and the guards gave zero shits.

After a week of literally no information, no access to a lawyer or embassy, only rice for food, toilets right out in the open and minimal contact between each other they "got out".  They were escorted, in handcuffs, directly onto a plane to Canada.  My friend said she's never been so embarrassed, being escorted onto a commercial plane full of normal people, in handcuffs and without any personal hygiene for a full week.  The flight attendant brought her booze immediately and was really compassionate, which makes me think this is not a rare occurrence.  I don't know how they knew to put them on a flight to the right city, but maybe they just chose Vancouver because it's the nearest/cheapest destination.

All of their belongings, including their cat, had to be shipped by their roommate to Canada.  Roommate had to bring their passports to the jail, but I'm not sure how he was contacted to bring them.  As far as I remember they had zero communication with anybody outside the jail.

So yeah, that's their crazy story!

"Everybody does it" so I imagine there are 1,000 drama free stories for every one of these.  And these two got thrown under the bus by a jilted employee (no Korean wants their kids to learn English from a Korean, anyway).  Without that person they no doubt would've gotten away with it.

To add insult to injury, they tried to go back 2 years and 11 months later for a wedding (one of their brothers).  They were denied at the border because they said they were barred for 3 years.  It wouldn't surprise me if that is bullshit, but they didn't make it to that wedding.   

I do think my friend is super bad ass for having been in Korean jail.  She laughs about it now, but it was no laughing matter at the time!
 

Omg that is insane!!!

[origami]

Nov 20, 2015 3:46:03 GMT -5 aMrsin09 said:

Are you looking at job jobs or just picking up work here and there?

I "worked" when we were in France, but somebody would have had a really hard time proving it. I was doing day work ironing or laundry or other misc tasks on the yachts. Got paid at the end of each day in cash. The three weeks before or at the end of the "seasons" could be rather profitable

picking up freelance jobs here and there. If I had a regular job job I would expect the company to sponsor a work visa for me.

[gigem]

That sory is insane and that is good enough reason i would never work under the table!! Also another risk would be that you could compromise your spouse's work visa, which could make both the government and the company really mad. I guess a few times here and there, but i wouldnt do regular work unless it was legit. another thing to consider is reporting income to irs ?! I think the minimum self earned income limists to file are quite low?

[aMrsin09]

Nov 20, 2015 3:53:29 GMT -5 origami said:

Nov 20, 2015 3:46:03 GMT -5 aMrsin09 said:

picking up freelance jobs here and there. If I had a regular job job I would expect the company to sponsor a work visa for me.

I certainly wouldn't do any work that could be traced back to me.

[autumnfire]

One thing you never want to mess with and that's your Visa status or ability to get one. If you're caught doing this you will more than likely receive a 10 year or lifetime ban from being able to apply for any kind of a visa and or possible entry into the country.  Depending on the rules and consequences of where you live

Don't take those rules lightly. If you have family who are of that countries origin it could mean you have to be apart from them for a long time depending on if they're able to get a visa to be with you in your country.

IMHO not worth it. What kind of a visa are you on? Is there any way you can apply for a different visa? I got mine to the US so I'm not aware of the protocol / rules of where you currently live.

If you have a job offer I'd be requesting that they sponsor for a work visa. This also allows you to forgo some expenses regarding the change in status. Again I'm not up to par on the rules but be sure you're aware of what your current visa allows and what the proper way is to get a work visa after holding a different visa in that country.