This isn't totally fair though. Threads get buried all the time depending on the hot thread of the moment. I saw it, but never got around to it because I am in and out and sometimes get distracted by shiny things. I'm happy to read it later today.
I don't know I've noticed it with other threads outside of BLM and police and black folks. It seems to me that a lot of threads that are about just trying to navigate institutionalize racism are the ones that get buried or only black women comment on them.
It's great if you are there to read and earn but the silence makes it feel lonely. It's ok to post that you'd never realized something happened or even just wow that is hard. But silence feels like the only people who care about these issues is us.
If you're in it with us you have to say so because I can't see you nodding behind your screen.
That's a fair point. On the flip side, just piping up to say "I was here" (in whatever form that may be) can eventually start to appear insincere. Honestly, sometimes the only thing I can say is "geez that sucks" and that doesn't really add value to a very serious discussion. However, if it's totally cool to chime in and say "I read this" when I really don't know what else to say, I am more than willing to do that.
This isn't totally fair though. Threads get buried all the time depending on the hot thread of the moment. I saw it, but never got around to it because I am in and out and sometimes get distracted by shiny things. I'm happy to read it later today.
I don't know I've noticed it with other threads outside of BLM and police and black folks. It seems to me that a lot of threads that are about just trying to navigate institutionalize racism are the ones that get buried or only black women comment on them.
It's great if you are there to read and earn but the silence makes it feel lonely. It's ok to post that you'd never realized something happened or even just wow that is hard. But silence feels like the only people who care about these issues is us.
If you're in it with us you have to say so because I can't see you nodding behind your screen.
I have read several of them and not commented because I had nothing to add, or felt woefully uneducated in the area. I see how this could feel dismissive. I'll try to be more proactive about commenting in the future.
This isn't totally fair though. Threads get buried all the time depending on the hot thread of the moment. I saw it, but never got around to it because I am in and out and sometimes get distracted by shiny things. I'm happy to read it later today.
I don't know I've noticed it with other threads outside of BLM and police and black folks. It seems to me that a lot of threads that are about just trying to navigate institutionalize racism are the ones that get buried or only black women comment on them.
It's great if you are there to read and earn but the silence makes it feel lonely. It's ok to post that you'd never realized something happened or even just wow that is hard. But silence feels like the only people who care about these issues is us.
If you're in it with us you have to say so because I can't see you nodding behind your screen.
I'm going to follow you around and like everything you say today because it's like you're reading my mind. This is an issue I had on April 12, and I've had to take a big step back because of it.
People are confusing "what's right" with "what happens." People hir based on perceptions. If a candidate "looks sickly," a company can't legally discriminate. If a woman is of child bearing age, a company can't legally discriminate. But they can certainly not hire, and never mention why. And some of the countries with extended leave policies are government funded, which is a very different animal than how we handle most of our leave/unemployment policies. So I think it's overly simplistic to think implementing extended leave will improve equality.
I honestly can't think of a single woman on this board who is not a feminist whether you identify as one or not. AW has chosen how to wear her hair. She has chosen what religion she wants to follow. She has chosen how to raise her children. Sure, her husband probably had input too, but I don't doubt that if she didn't want something to happen, it would not happen.
That, to me, is feminism. Holding the power to have autonomy over your own choices.
Now I'll wait for someone to tell me that I'm wrong.
Yes, but the problem lies in other women telling me I am wrong for making those choices. Someone in a thread yesterday told me my thinking was flawed. Feminists don't get to tell me how I should view gender or chivalry or submission or reproductive issues. I am a woman, too.
Sure they can tell you that you're wrong. Part of allllll of this is that we can make up our minds about what is right/wrong/or just plain silly.
To the not choosing a woman because she may take extended leave, can we then apply that to sickly looking people? I mean, if a guy is looking gaunt and unhealthy, maybe something is wrong and he shouldn't get the job.
That is a slippery slope and total BS in terms of hiring practices.
As for the impact in countries that have extended leave, well, take a look at the countries rated happiest in the world and their maternity/paternity leave policies.
This is totally a side note and for the record I do think we should have at least 12-16 weeks paid here in the US. But a lot of these countries with extended leave policies have issues, such as men still not wanting to take the entire time and most women working part time. We shouldn't pretend it's a panacea just because we have an abysmal system here.
I don't know I've noticed it with other threads outside of BLM and police and black folks. It seems to me that a lot of threads that are about just trying to navigate institutionalize racism are the ones that get buried or only black women comment on them.
It's great if you are there to read and earn but the silence makes it feel lonely. It's ok to post that you'd never realized something happened or even just wow that is hard. But silence feels like the only people who care about these issues is us.
If you're in it with us you have to say so because I can't see you nodding behind your screen.
I'm going to follow you around and like everything you say today because it's like you're reading my mind. This is an issue I had on April 12, and I've had to take a big step back because of it.
When I say the woman does the work, I mean, she does the work!
So you can't understand why some of us think that extended, paid, maternity leave could actually be harmful to women's careers? How if a company has 2 candidates, one male and one female, and they know one isn't going to leave for a year and still get paid, they're going to go with the male candidate?
So you think that is ok for them to choose a male candidate because a woman might take an extended leave? And who decided it had to be a year? Hell, most women can barely get 6-12 weeks paid without having to deplete their personal and sick leave banks.
I don't think that a company can determine, from an interview that a candidate plans on taking an extended leave. I don't want to be so simplistic but if most other countries can figure it out, why can't we?
I agree with this. Our Offices in the Eastern Hemisphere have extended Maternal and Paternal Leave and the offices in that part of the World Routinely save the ass of the rest of the company, sales wise. Even in my part of the World, new mothers are routinely allowed to work from home once they receive a doctors release to return to work. New fathers are also extended the same benefit.
And as a side rant, somewhat related, I cringe when I hear people talk about "women's issues" and the "women's vote" as if A) these are issues only women care about and/or B) these are the issues that will decide how women vote. I am more than a uterus and personally find it offensive that politicians think all I care about is access to free birth control and abortions. You know who else csn care about those things? Men. You know who else couldn't care less about those things? Women. You know what are real women's issues? The economy. National security. Education.
I hate being lumped in some group that politicians think can be bought by discussing only a few issues. I wonder, do African Americans cringe in the same way when they hear the media talk about the "Black Vote"?
I'm sorry, but who are you to decide what is a "real" women's issue?
And men can care all they want about abortions, but the fact is, they will never be in a position to have that option (or the option of going ahead with pregnancy and childbirth). Not a single one. To act like that is completely irrelevant is a bit obtuse.
IMO "women's issues" doesn't mean that this is all women care about, but that it's an issue that is mostly relevant to women. So yeah, it's going to include reproductive choices, because that is one of the few areas where biology has dictated a difference in experience.
The economy, national security, education is an everyone issue. No need to specify women vs. men vs. "real" issues. It's just a qualifier for a subset of things that disproportionately impact women, not a list of things they only care about.
I apologize. I should have said "You know what are real women's issues FOR ME" because that is what I meant.
But I still hate the ifea that politicians think they can pander to women. "Here let me dangle this in front of them and it will buy their vote." The women I know care about way more than that and actually value other things more than birth control and abortion. I can't be bought with those issues. TO ME it all feels like a game they are playing yo buy votes and avoid discussing issues that seem way more important TO ME.
And as a side rant, somewhat related, I cringe when I hear people talk about "women's issues" and the "women's vote" as if A) these are issues only women care about and/or B) these are the issues that will decide how women vote. I am more than a uterus and personally find it offensive that politicians think all I care about is access to free birth control and abortions. You know who else csn care about those things? Men. You know who else couldn't care less about those things? Women. You know what are real women's issues? The economy. National security. Education.
I hate being lumped in some group that politicians think can be bought by discussing only a few issues. I wonder, do African Americans cringe in the same way when they hear the media talk about the "Black Vote"?
I'm sorry, but who are you to decide what is a "real" women's issue?
And men can care all they want about abortions, but the fact is, they will never be in a position to have that option (or the option of going ahead with pregnancy and childbirth). Not a single one. To act like that is completely irrelevant is a bit obtuse.
IMO "women's issues" doesn't mean that this is all women care about, but that it's an issue that is mostly relevant to women. So yeah, it's going to include reproductive choices, because that is one of the few areas where biology has dictated a difference in experience.
The economy, national security, education is an everyone issue. No need to specify women vs. men vs. "real" issues. It's just a qualifier for a subset of things that disproportionately impact women, not a list of things they only care about.
I apologize. I should have said "You know what are real women's issues FOR ME" because that is what I meant.
But I still hate the ifea that politicians think they can pander to women. "Here let me dangle this in front of them and it will buy their vote." The women I know care about way more than that and actually value other things more than birth control and abortion. I can't be bought with those issues. TO ME it all feels like a game they are playing yo buy votes and avoid discussing issues that seem way more important TO ME.
Post by jeaniebueller on Oct 15, 2015 9:32:12 GMT -5
Also, I had never heard the term "intersectional feminism" until this board began openly discussing it a few months ago. I know that is my privilege speaking. I always read the posts about it and appreciate reading the perspectives of the WOC on this board. It is something that my eyes are definitely open to now.
Yes, but the problem lies in other women telling me I am wrong for making those choices. Someone in a thread yesterday told me my thinking was flawed. Feminists don't get to tell me how I should view gender or chivalry or submission or reproductive issues. I am a woman, too.
Sure they can tell you that you're wrong. Part of allllll of this is that we can make up our minds about what is right/wrong/or just plain silly.
Right, but just don't be surprised when you alienate some women who then decide they don't want to identify with a group of women whose majority is telling them they are wrong or flawed for the choices thry have made or the opinions they hold. Why on earth would they want to be grouped with those people?
People are confusing "what's right" with "what happens." People hir based on perceptions. If a candidate "looks sickly," a company can't legally discriminate. If a woman is of child bearing age, a company can't legally discriminate. But they can certainly not hire, and never mention why. And some of the countries with extended leave policies are government funded, which is a very different animal than how we handle most of our leave/unemployment policies. So I think it's overly simplistic to think implementing extended leave will improve equality.
I felt like the topic was brought up pretty vaguely in the earlier post, so I responded in vague terms and generalizations. I don't think being of child bearing age is the only (or even the main) reason a woman will be passed over in favor of a man for a job.
And I agree, extended leave wouldn't do much in terms of equality, but it surely would help women and families in general as a whole. To improve equality so much more would have to change.
I used to not, now I do. Mostly because I decided I don't give a fuck what other people think feminism is or what the "right" way to be a feminist is. I consider myself a feminist and if people think some of my positions/beliefs or life choices aren't feminist, they can take a flying leap. I decided I was tired of people defining something by their own metric and telling me that I'm not a feminist. Who made them the final arbiter of that? Fuck off.
To the not choosing a woman because she may take extended leave, can we then apply that to sickly looking people? I mean, if a guy is looking gaunt and unhealthy, maybe something is wrong and he shouldn't get the job.
That is a slippery slope and total BS in terms of hiring practices.
As for the impact in countries that have extended leave, well, take a look at the countries rated happiest in the world and their maternity/paternity leave policies.
This is totally a side note and for the record I do think we should have at least 12-16 weeks paid here in the US. But a lot of these countries with extended leave policies have issues, such as men still not wanting to take the entire time and most women working part time. We shouldn't pretend it's a panacea just because we have an abysmal system here.
I've seen here a lot of women returning to work earlier than their allotted time, but then the husband takes his leave. It's not perfect and people may not want their full leave, but knowing it is available is a gigantic load off.
Interesting tidbit: I recently heard that Iceland and Norway are going to make it illegal for men NOT to take some leave when their child is born. I don't know the details since it was relayed second hand (original article was in Icelandic) but I'd be interested to see what happens.
Also, I had never heard the term "intersectional feminism" until this board began openly discussing it a few months ago. I know that is my privilege speaking. I always read the posts about it and appreciate reading the perspectives of the WOC on this board. It is something that my eyes are definitely open to now.
I had, but I was (and am) more hesitant to explore the issues with women of color in person so my understanding was shallow, at best. I have concerns about how to approach conversations in a way that makes it clear that I care and I'm listening without crossing over into forcing people to be my personal educators when that isn't anyone else's responsibility. I can read positon papers all the live long day, but (and perhaps this is my personal failing) I did not understand on a deeper level until my message board friends shared their views and personal experiences. And my understanding remains far from sufficient.
I'm sorry, but who are you to decide what is a "real" women's issue?
And men can care all they want about abortions, but the fact is, they will never be in a position to have that option (or the option of going ahead with pregnancy and childbirth). Not a single one. To act like that is completely irrelevant is a bit obtuse.
IMO "women's issues" doesn't mean that this is all women care about, but that it's an issue that is mostly relevant to women. So yeah, it's going to include reproductive choices, because that is one of the few areas where biology has dictated a difference in experience.
The economy, national security, education is an everyone issue. No need to specify women vs. men vs. "real" issues. It's just a qualifier for a subset of things that disproportionately impact women, not a list of things they only care about.
I apologize. I should have said "You know what ate real women's issues FOR ME" because that is what I meant.
But I still hate the ifea that politicians think they can pander to women. "Here let me dangle this in front of them and it will buy their vote." The women I know care about way more than that and actually value other things more than birth control and abortion. I can't be bought with those issues. TO ME it all feels like a game they are playing yo buy votes and avoid discussing issues that seem way more important TO ME.
It's never felt like "dangling something in front of women" to me - it feels like Democrats, primarily, are saying "we will respect your bodily autonomy and we will fight to make sure you are paid equally to your male colleagues." That's not pandering, IMO, it's recognizing that these are issues that are important to me that other politicians are not recognizing (or are actively fighting against). They're not the *only* issues I care about but they are among the issues I care about.
Yes. I believe that women everywhere are deserving of equal respect and positive treatment and to me those are the core principles of feminism.
The feminist movement has problems. Inclusion is plainly one of them. But that doesn't cause me not to want to label myself a feminist. Basically, I have a philosophy of "change from within."
This is exactly how I feel. Until reading on these boards for the last couple of years, I was not aware of the exclusivity of feminism, and I consider myself to be well educated. I thought feminism was a group about basic human rights for all, but have had my eyes opened to how one-sided the movement is.
In general, I have always aligned myself with feminism. The core, basic roots of the movement are something I feel in every fiber of my being. But I think we as a movement need to make sure we are aware that "we" is a diverse group, and what is best for one of us is not best for the other; we need to work towards equality while realizing that we are all at different starting points and have different experiences that need to be taken into account.
Additionally, I feel that I am often one of the people who "just reads" and doesn't comment a lot. When I do comment, I feel like I am going to just be viewed as "look, Shauni27 was here" and that is it, because I feel like I cannot keep up with a lot of you; I am not educated enough or well informed enough or simply do not have anything else to add without saying "I agree." (Which again, feels a lot like "I was here.") It sounds like trying to participate more will help, I just don't want to come off as the naive, uneducated poster, you know?
I don't identify as a feminist. I'm sure some of my actions/thoughts would align with the feminist movement, but I feel like it has to be foremost in your life's mission to be identifiable as such. Yes, equality is important, but my being a female is not the only struggle I face, nor is it the one many of my friends face.
I try to identify and live as an ally. From my experience, everyone faces a situation in which they are "lesser than," and the way I think these gaps will be bridged is by forming allies who are "more than." It can be from the standard feminist disparity of a woman is less than a man, but on more basic levels, too. I did a lot of work revolving around this idea in high school, where younger people were the "less than" and needed to empower themselves to find a "more than" for themselves. Finding a way to be empowered allowed for greater empathy in forming allies. A "more than" could be as simple as being better at math than a classmate and working to be an ally to a struggling classmate.
Because of thinking of things in terms of forging allies for so long, I have a hard time of identifying as a feminist. It is too narrow and isn't where I feel like I fit all the time.
This is more rambling than I intended so the TL;DR bit: I don't like the strictness of feminism and feel like it has to be your ONLY cause to fit the mainstream model of it, from what I've been exposed to.
I'm a feminist, but that's not the only thing I am. Just like I'm a mother, but that's not the only thing I am. An attorney, a wife, etc. Hell, I'm also a minority, but I don't think I've had much of that experience, so I don't relate to it even though it's 100% the case (both parents and all 4 grandparents are Puerto Rican - my parents only came to the mainland US a few years before I was born). I care about international development, race relations, poverty in the US, etc.
You can have more than one label and give one more or less importance at any given time.
Not trying to change your mind, I just think it's an odd constraint to put on yourself - that you can only be a feminist if that is the most important thing to you at all times. I don't think that's a demand of the feminist movement.
It's probably colored by my own experiences. I've been in arguments with feminists in college who told me that I wasn't feminist ENOUGH! To be a feminist.
I know it's not absolute for everyone, but that was a huge impression I was force fed. I didn't appreciate it at all and formed my opinions on it. I know it is not all feminists and I respect any feminist who does not do that, but in terms of creating my identity, that happened.
So you think that is ok for them to choose a male candidate because a woman might take an extended leave? And who decided it had to be a year? Hell, most women can barely get 6-12 weeks paid without having to deplete their personal and sick leave banks.
I don't think that a company can determine, from an interview that a candidate plans on taking an extended leave. I don't want to be so simplistic but if most other countries can figure it out, why can't we?
Nope, I don't think it's ok. Nowhere did I say that. But I do think it happens, and I don't think you can regulate it out of existence.
I think the argument itself is interesting, so I'm gonna stick my nose in here for fun.
I think the counter argument here is that just because you can't regulate something out of existence doesn't mean there shouldn't be laws about it. Those laws are important, they inform society about what we think is important, what we value, what we won't tolerate, and while it may not eliminate them, it may help to make it a less common occurrence. I believe many people here have discredited that same argument when it used as an opposition against gun control for the same reason.
Nope, I don't think it's ok. Nowhere did I say that. But I do think it happens, and I don't think you can regulate it out of existence.
I think the argument itself is interesting, so I'm gonna stick my nose in here for fun.
I think the counter argument here is that just because you can't regulate something out of existence doesn't mean there shouldn't be laws about it. Those laws are important, they inform society about what we think is important, what we value, what we won't tolerate, and while it may not eliminate them, it may help to make it a less common occurrence. I believe many people here have discredited that same argument when it used as an opposition against gun control for the same reason.
And I think it's totally fine to disagree. But it's not "simplistic" to think extended leave is not the solution, which is what I was responding to.
Feminism is a nuanced term. It can mean many different things. I hate this "all or nothing, either or" mentality that has taken over our culture. The world is full of shades of grey. Embrace them.
For me, feminism lies in the core of equality and autonomy. The freedoms to make choices sans consequences.
My reality is different from many of yours. And that is ok. I don't think someone is less of a feminist or not a feminist if they like chivalry, or they want to fight for their children to not be viewed in a negative light if they wear a hoodie.
You cannot apply one definition and one goal of feminism to all women and expect it to work. It can't. It shouldn't.
It's probably colored by my own experiences. I've been in arguments with feminists in college who told me that I wasn't feminist ENOUGH! To be a feminist.
I know it's not absolute for everyone, but that was a huge impression I was force fed. I didn't appreciate it at all and formed my opinions on it. I know it is not all feminists and I respect any feminist who does not do that, but in terms of creating my identity, that happened.
To be fair, in college NO ONE is feminist enough for college feminists. Ah, youth. So full of righteous dogma. Lol.
I think the argument itself is interesting, so I'm gonna stick my nose in here for fun.
I think the counter argument here is that just because you can't regulate something out of existence doesn't mean there shouldn't be laws about it. Those laws are important, they inform society about what we think is important, what we value, what we won't tolerate, and while it may not eliminate them, it may help to make it a less common occurrence. I believe many people here have discredited that same argument when it used as an opposition against gun control for the same reason.
And I think it's totally fine to disagree. But it's not "simplistic" to think extended leave is not the solution, which is what I was responding to.
It's probably colored by my own experiences. I've been in arguments with feminists in college who told me that I wasn't feminist ENOUGH! To be a feminist.
I know it's not absolute for everyone, but that was a huge impression I was force fed. I didn't appreciate it at all and formed my opinions on it. I know it is not all feminists and I respect any feminist who does not do that, but in terms of creating my identity, that happened.
To be fair, in college NO ONE is feminist enough for college feminists. Ah, youth. So full of righteous dogma. Lol.
I agree. And I was in an artsy fartsy liberal arts college, too.
My hatred for some people comes from there for sure since some of those people just have not changed lol.
This is totally a side note and for the record I do think we should have at least 12-16 weeks paid here in the US. But a lot of these countries with extended leave policies have issues, such as men still not wanting to take the entire time and most women working part time. We shouldn't pretend it's a panacea just because we have an abysmal system here.
I've seen here a lot of women returning to work earlier than their allotted time, but then the husband takes his leave. It's not perfect and people may not want their full leave, but knowing it is available is a gigantic load off.
Interesting tidbit: I recently heard that Iceland and Norway are going to make it illegal for men NOT to take some leave when their child is born. I don't know the details since it was relayed second hand (original article was in Icelandic) but I'd be interested to see what happens.
That is intriguing. I wonder how that might change things. I have to say I'm kind of ambivalent about mandating it because I know from reading MMM that many women feel like they are going crazy on their maternity leaves and just want to get back to being their old selves, part of which means going back to work as soon as they've physically recovered. I guess it just goes back to there not being one right way to do things. But I do think it's good for men to at least take a couple weeks.
And I think it's totally fine to disagree. But it's not "simplistic" to think extended leave is not the solution, which is what I was responding to.
What do you think *is* the solution?
Well, the first would be that if you're going to require PAID extended leave be covered, it should happen for both mothers and fathers. It should also happen for any major medical event. And there will have to be a culture shift--I'm not sure I'd go as far as requiring that an employee take it, but without the proper culture shift (i.e men AND women using the benefit), I think it will be very problematic
Again, I don't pretend to have all the answers. But it is not simplistic to think extended leave could have a negative impact.
Yes, I identify strongly as a feminist but I'm not going to let anyone define for me what they believe a feminist is. To me, it's the idea that men and women are equal and deserving of equal treatment, period.
I think there are a lot of issues with the feminist movement and the messaging is far from perfect. However, I'm not going to let perfect get in the way of good so I'm happy to stand up and say that I'm a feminist and do what I can to further the cause.