Well, the first would be that if you're going to require PAID extended leave be covered, it should happen for both mothers and fathers. It should also happen for any major medical event. And there will have to be a culture shift--I'm not sure I'd go as far as requiring that an employee take it, but without the proper culture shift (i.e men AND women using the benefit), I think it will be very problematic
Again, I don't pretend to have all the answers. But it is not simplistic to think extended leave could have a negative impact.
You mean kind of like LTD? Also what are you thinking when you are saying any major medical event?
I'm not sure what we are trying to find the solution for. Solution for what? Men getting chosen over women for positions? The wage gap? The glass ceiling? All of it?
The only solution I am thinking about in terms of longer paid maternity leaves is that it could possibly increase effectiveness at work, women could possibly relax more on leave instead of worrying about how broke they are going to be when it's over and how this kid is already fucking up their finances and that they don't have any sick or personal days left, and that they won't have to further fuck up their finances and leave balances by taking unpaid days to get their kid to the doctor or stay home when he/she is sick
This is exactly what I think we need to address most urgently. Having to use all of your PTO for maternity leave is bullshit. You need to have sick days left over because babies get sick and they can't go to day care and infect the other babies so someone needs to take care of them. There is no getting around that. The other stuff, I think it needs a cultural change and I suppose I am a pessimist but I don't think we will see it in our generation. Maybe the next one.
For example. Hardly any of you ladies commented or even acknowledged the "twice as good thread" some of the women who did loosely equated it with being poor or female.
I think this is a really valid and fair point. I read it and it resonated with me but I wasn't sure how to reply. Oftentimes, I read these things and agree with them but I'm not sure what the best response is so I say nothing and just try to pay attention to what the others are saying and learn from them. That's not really the right thing to do.
Post by penguingrrl on Oct 15, 2015 10:03:21 GMT -5
I identify as a feminist. I think that the overall theme that being a woman should not lead to diminished academic expectations, fewer choices and lower pay is not controversial.
Well, the first would be that if you're going to require PAID extended leave be covered, it should happen for both mothers and fathers. It should also happen for any major medical event. And there will have to be a culture shift--I'm not sure I'd go as far as requiring that an employee take it, but without the proper culture shift (i.e men AND women using the benefit), I think it will be very problematic
Again, I don't pretend to have all the answers. But it is not simplistic to think extended leave could have a negative impact.
Workers and employers should both pay into an insurance system which would cover childbirth or adoption or some other major medical event like surgery or caring for a dying parent, etc. Whether they take it or not should be up to them, I don't think it should be mandated.
Well, the first would be that if you're going to require PAID extended leave be covered, it should happen for both mothers and fathers. It should also happen for any major medical event. And there will have to be a culture shift--I'm not sure I'd go as far as requiring that an employee take it, but without the proper culture shift (i.e men AND women using the benefit), I think it will be very problematic
Again, I don't pretend to have all the answers. But it is not simplistic to think extended leave could have a negative impact.
You mean kind of like LTD? Also what are you thinking when you are saying any major medical event?
I mean, if I have to be out for chemo, isn't that at least as medically traumatic as childbirth? Yet we see people all the time that use up thir sick time, borrow sick time from others where it is allowed, and go unpaid under FMLA when it extends past that.
We have to find a way to make childbirth/adoption an equal liability for men and women, to remove implicit bias . Can it be done? I have no idea.
You mean kind of like LTD? Also what are you thinking when you are saying any major medical event?
I mean, if I have to be out for chemo, isn't that at least as medically traumatic as childbirth? Yet we see people all the time that use up thir sick time, borrow sick time from others where it is allowed, and go unpaid under FMLA when it extends past that.
We have to find a way to make childbirth/adoption an equal liability for men and women, to remove implicit bias . Can it be done? I have no idea.
Oh OK, I agree with people having extended leave for things like that as well.
It's probably colored by my own experiences. I've been in arguments with feminists in college who told me that I wasn't feminist ENOUGH! To be a feminist.
I know it's not absolute for everyone, but that was a huge impression I was force fed. I didn't appreciate it at all and formed my opinions on it. I know it is not all feminists and I respect any feminist who does not do that, but in terms of creating my identity, that happened.
To be fair, in college NO ONE is feminist enough for college feminists. Ah, youth. So full of righteous dogma. Lol.
I'm glad I kept scrolling because that was my response too. Oh college.
As for the OP - yes, I consider myself a feminist, but like a lot of the PP's I don't necessarily identify with every "feminist movement".
All this is making me wish I hadn't lost touch with my most "righteous dogma" filled college friend - female, bisexual, mixed race, in an engineering major. She had a lot to be righteous about. I'd love to discuss intersectional feminism with her. I had a lot of conversations with her about being the only POC in the room, and about male dominated fields - but we never really talked about how those two factors interact for her.
I have a question and really am having trouble articulating it, but I am kind of curious about this. I see and understand the reasons that black women are saying they don't identify as feminist, and have issues with what is perceived as a white woman's feminist movement. Isn't this somewhat similar and offensive as white people saying they don't identify with BLM or intersectional feminism? I'm having trouble with the grey area here.
Also, I feel like a lot of the white feminists who are all "HRC FOR PRESIDENT, IT'S ABOUT TIME WE HAD A WOMAN!" would side eye the ever-loving shit out of a black person who voted for Obama because he was black.
I don't know I've noticed it with other threads outside of BLM and police and black folks. It seems to me that a lot of threads that are about just trying to navigate institutionalize racism are the ones that get buried or only black women comment on them.
It's great if you are there to read and earn but the silence makes it feel lonely. It's ok to post that you'd never realized something happened or even just wow that is hard. But silence feels like the only people who care about these issues is us.
If you're in it with us you have to say so because I can't see you nodding behind your screen.
I'm going to follow you around and like everything you say today because it's like you're reading my mind. This is an issue I had on April 12, and I've had to take a big step back because of it.
A long time ago, Mr M asked me why I was a feminist instead of "humanist". And it's because feminism recognizes the huge disparity between genders in our culture, and really all cultures. And usually sub-cultures.
I'm somewhat of a radical/structural feminist. I don't know that using oppression language makes a lot of sense on the individual level. But we have a system that rewards men and harms women, and it's hard to see when you're the one getting the benefit. Those that love us don't tend to want to harm us, but it's hard when the system is working for you and, in the short-term, offers relative rewards for conformity (i.e. women who crouch their language in politeness are more likely to be promoted...to a point).
I think that extends to intersectionality and inclusion. I think it can be very hard to see when your own benefits in the system are few that you yourself are participating in the oppression of others, but I also think that's the only way forward. Conveniently, I think it leads to greater freedom for everyone, but I do t know if that's the goal or a side affect.
What about offering extended leave for both new Moms and Dads?
I think this, along with strongly encouraging or requiring fathers to take paternity leave, is probably where the solution lies.
When everyone, regardless of gender takes parental leave, then it's not a gendered issue anymore, and discrimination towards women is less likely to happen.
I will add that the desire to be considered equal to men is also not something that I instinctively relate to. Because when white feminists talk about that, they are really talking about "equal to white men", since that's their opposite. And considering black men are apparently too scary to hold the door for folks at an ATM or shop in a Georgetown store, and keep getting shot by cops, I don't really want to be "equal" to black men. I want black men AND women to be equal to white men AND women.
The perils of being a double minority.
Also, I feel like a lot of the white feminists who are all "HRC FOR PRESIDENT, IT'S ABOUT TIME WE HAD A WOMAN!" would side eye the ever-loving shit out of a black person who voted for Obama because he was black.
Truth.
I thought so much about the last paragraph during the debate when Hillary was talking about being a woman and people were cheering. If Obama had said those things...McCain would be happy as hell right now.
What I mean by loaded word is that it doesn't have one specific meaning. For some, it's anti SAHM. For some, it's equality for all. As we saw from the previous post, it can mean chivalry=oppression. And I'm not here for all of that. Only one of those statements fit me, hence my hesitation to use the label.
Yes, I know what you meant. People have distorted and misinterpreted the meaning and that's exactly my point.
But is that strictly a female thing? I don't think so. I think that's an adult thing. The older we get, the more we know ourselves, and stop putting up with bullshit. Stop hanging out with people we don't like. Cull our friends down to the people that really matter. Become more confident in our abilities.
No, and I didn't say that it was. Just that it was sad.
In general, I agree with you. I do think there are overall matters that overlap. I can see why you would feel abandoned by mainstream feminism, though.
I don't think identifying first with your black community and trying to work and advocate there to make things better automatically disqualifies you as a feminist (although, you identify how you identify and I'm not here to tell anyone how they should identify). I think there are some feminists out there that work and advocate for those overlap matters, white women, too. Again, though, I realize that is not part of where mainstream feminism has put their focus.
I think you can be black and be feminist and still advocate for and identify more with your black community. You don't have to be in the trenches of the war to consider yourself, or be considered a feminist.
I realize that I am a white woman saying these things and this could be my privilege talking. Again, I am not here to say how people should identify.
Am I even making sense? I have not had enough coffee this morning.
Lol I think you should get the coffee because you're responding to her as if she said she wasn't a feminist or that she wasn't in the trenches and those things were never said. They may not be the trenches that white feminists want her in, but that doesn't make her any less a feminist. Different, not less than.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
In general, I agree with you. I do think there are overall matters that overlap. I can see why you would feel abandoned by mainstream feminism, though.
I don't think identifying first with your black community and trying to work and advocate there to make things better automatically disqualifies you as a feminist (although, you identify how you identify and I'm not here to tell anyone how they should identify). I think there are some feminists out there that work and advocate for those overlap matters, white women, too. Again, though, I realize that is not part of where mainstream feminism has put their focus.
I think you can be black and be feminist and still advocate for and identify more with your black community. You don't have to be in the trenches of the war to consider yourself, or be considered a feminist.
I realize that I am a white woman saying these things and this could be my privilege talking. Again, I am not here to say how people should identify.
Am I even making sense? I have not had enough coffee this morning.
Yes you need more coffee. You're responding to something I didn't say.
I sent that article to some black female colleagues and 2 white folks I considered allies. *crickets*.
These are the same people who argue about a lack of female advancement and leadership in our corporation.
Thank you. sfy schooled me. I am going to Starbucks!
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
I have a question and really am having trouble articulating it, but I am kind of curious about this. I see and understand the reasons that black women are saying they don't identify as feminist, and have issues with what is perceived as a white woman's feminist movement. Isn't this somewhat similar and offensive as white people saying they don't identify with BLM or intersectional feminism? I'm having trouble with the grey area here.
Black women feel left out of the feminist movement even though they deal with the same type of gender bias as white women. White people do not deal with the same type of discrimination that sparked the BLM.
I will add that the desire to be considered equal to men is also not something that I instinctively relate to. Because when white feminists talk about that, they are really talking about "equal to white men", since that's their opposite. And considering black men are apparently too scary to hold the door for folks at an ATM or shop in a Georgetown store, and keep getting shot by cops, I don't really want to be "equal" to black men. I want black men AND women to be equal to white men AND women.
The perils of being a double minority.
Also, I feel like a lot of the white feminists who are all "HRC FOR PRESIDENT, IT'S ABOUT TIME WE HAD A WOMAN!" would side eye the ever-loving shit out of a black person who voted for Obama because he was black.
This what I meant in my later statement in this thread. It's like, well just help us to get equality with white men and then we'll see about what you need. Like Hollywood salaries. Um, more money is nice, but can we get ROLES? I don't like the, y'all can wait, let's do this thing for me first message I get sometimes.
I've been thinking about this. While functionally it's the same in effect, I don't think its consciously a "you can wait" as much as it's a total lack of thought about the difference in the issues faced. To my mind that's worse. Sticking to your Hollywood example, it's just as easy to say "we need more roles for women and for people of color, and we need to be paid equally when we play them." It's like five extra words. And it's not like people in Hollywood are shy about using their words.
I'm not sure what we are trying to find the solution for. Solution for what? Men getting chosen over women for positions? The wage gap? The glass ceiling? All of it?
The only solution I am thinking about in terms of longer paid maternity leaves is that it could possibly increase effectiveness at work, women could possibly relax more on leave instead of worrying about how broke they are going to be when it's over and how this kid is already fucking up their finances and that they don't have any sick or personal days left, and that they won't have to further fuck up their finances and leave balances by taking unpaid days to get their kid to the doctor or stay home when he/she is sick
This is exactly what I think we need to address most urgently. Having to use all of your PTO for maternity leave is bullshit. You need to have sick days left over because babies get sick and they can't go to day care and infect the other babies so someone needs to take care of them. There is no getting around that. The other stuff, I think it needs a cultural change and I suppose I am a pessimist but I don't think we will see it in our generation. Maybe the next one.
Ugh, yes. My company is pretty good in that they offer 12 weeks of paid maternity leave. But we get 6 sick days a year. They have to be used in full day increments. Vacation can be used in half day increments, but you can't take it same-day. So if I get a call at, say, 11 am that my kid is puking, I can take a full day sick time, or somehow try to make up those "missed" hours during the pay period. And because she has to be puke-free for 24 hours, I can either pre-emptively take a full day vacation for the next day and I'd I only need half, great, or I can use another full sick day. My department is actually somewhat flexible, but a lot aren't.
My kid was out of daycare for sickness in every single calendar month between November & May. I don't know what we would've done if either of us got sick late last year.
Post by MarmeeNoir on Oct 15, 2015 10:26:01 GMT -5
While I share a lot of the beliefs, I would not label myself as such. It may be because the people that I see that label themselves as feminist are on the Internet and there is a disconnect. Our lives are so completely different. People around here don't have careers, they have jobs. Jobs that do not pay the bills, don't offer paid sick/ maternity leave. Generational poverty and all that entails.
I also have a number of mental health issues and that's the biggest fight in my life. So, feeling like a man holding my door is done to keep my cage doesn't compute. Intellectually I can see what your saying. Emotionally, I'm like really!?
Post by EloiseWeenie on Oct 15, 2015 10:27:04 GMT -5
I spent years thinking I wasn't a feminist. In 10th or 11th grade, I was talking with one of my friends and she asked me what I wanted to be. I had a privileged life, and said "I don't know, but I really want to be a SAHM when I have kids." She FREAKED, and told me that it was like spitting in the face of the women who worked so hard to get women better employment opportunities. I was like fuck off, I do what I want. I think about how differently that conversation could have gone if she wasn't screaming and trying to shame me. It's really hard to share that feminism is allowing women to choose their best path, when you're telling them they're doing it all wrong.
Now, I recognize I'm my own type of feminist. Women should be afforded the same opportunities and pay as men. I'm not by Arbor's standards sex positive. I waited until I was 25, on my wedding night, to lose my virginity. I don't care about anyone else's sex life, you do you. But, I don't like it when people call those waiting for marriage "crazy." If I had names, I'd name them, but I don't remember who has said it. Some women want to wait, and it's their choice. It isn't always because she's been brainwashed. The preschooler gentleman article was ridiculously histrionic. There are real issues out there, and I don't think door holding is one of them. I agree with the black women, that white feminists are trying to get theirs first. Black women matter, and honestly we should be more concerned with listening to the needs of black women and supporting them, before we're fighting the door holder fight. Our priorities are jacked.
I have a question and really am having trouble articulating it, but I am kind of curious about this. I see and understand the reasons that black women are saying they don't identify as feminist, and have issues with what is perceived as a white woman's feminist movement. Isn't this somewhat similar and offensive as white people saying they don't identify with BLM or intersectional feminism? I'm having trouble with the grey area here.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am a feminist. I also have issues with white women's feminist movement. If that offends anyone, that's okay. Everyone is entitled to be offended by whatever they feel offended by. I will say that I think the distinction is that I do not identify with that movement, because to me, that movement doesn't really give a shit if I'm a part of it or not, historically and currently. Moreover, when black women raise our concerns, we are often told--whether implicitly or explicitly--that those concerns are secondary, tertiary, or no one gives a fuckary. This is not a situation wherein black women simply have no interest about the concerns of white women, most of the black women on this board (and everywhere, actually) who are saying they do not identify with white feminists are saying it in reaction to how the white feminist movement has treated us.
So you think that is ok for them to choose a male candidate because a woman might take an extended leave? And who decided it had to be a year? Hell, most women can barely get 6-12 weeks paid without having to deplete their personal and sick leave banks.
I don't think that a company can determine, from an interview that a candidate plans on taking an extended leave. I don't want to be so simplistic but if most other countries can figure it out, why can't we?
Nope, I don't think it's ok. Nowhere did I say that. But I do think it happens, and I don't think you can regulate it out of existence.
In my universe, it's not feminism's job to legislate anything. We all know that the law doesn't change what's in people's heads. The job of feminism is to change what's in people's heads.
I'm more than a little dismayed by a lot of the posts I'm seeing in this thread (which I've not yet finished reading) that indicate that many of you see feminism as some homogeneous monolith in which every self-proclaimed feminist is in belief lockstep with every other self-proclaimed feminist. Which is a load of horseshit, and I think y'all know that. Are there a lot of Lutherans who say, "I don't believe in predestination like those Calvinists, so I can't call myself a Christian"? No, because it's ridiculous.
There's no membership, there's no code, there's no set of rules, there's no feminism thought-police that's going to arrest you because you've not made being a feminist your "primary mission in life" (I can't remember who posted that upthread, but...please).
It's probably colored by my own experiences. I've been in arguments with feminists in college who told me that I wasn't feminist ENOUGH! To be a feminist.
I know it's not absolute for everyone, but that was a huge impression I was force fed. I didn't appreciate it at all and formed my opinions on it. I know it is not all feminists and I respect any feminist who does not do that, but in terms of creating my identity, that happened.
I can see how that would happen.
But college students are assholes. Unless you camp out for two days and raise money for homeless people, you don't care ENOUGH. If you don't join the protest by taping your mouth and doing an overnight vigil, you don't care about whatever ENOUGH.
I guess I'd just hope that you reconsider, because the feminist movement needs more normal people like you and the more of us there are, the less the crazy ones define the movement.
At my college, it was all about being multicultural and a cultural relativist. If you judged anything, you were being intolerant. Now I think "fuck them, some shit is just wrong!" I write it off as dogmatic youth.
My school was all about feminism and LGBTQ rights. There was a tiny male population and next to no POC. The only non-whites and not rich kids were in the scholarship program that I was in. They tried to fight for more multiculturalism, or at least for the school to acknowledge that it was disproportionately white, but it never came to anything while I was there and it got ugly and even more isolating. I was glad to be away from a lot of those people.
I'm going to follow you around and like everything you say today because it's like you're reading my mind. This is an issue I had on April 12, and I've had to take a big step back because of it.
Also, what happened on April 12?
The crickets when issues of race came up got too loud to ignore. There was also a dust up about Stellas that was the final straw.
While I share a lot of the beliefs, I would not label myself as such. It may be because the people that I see that label themselves as feminist are on the Internet and there is a disconnect. Our lives are so completely different. People around here don't have careers, they have jobs. Jobs that do not pay the bills, don't offer paid sick/ maternity leave. Generational poverty and all that entails.
To me, these are exactly the kind of women who would benefit from these policies. Most white collar women may struggle with leave, but most can pull something together. But someone working at Wendy's having to come back to work one week post partum or having to drop out of the workforce altogether because of lack of childcare, that's someone who needs paid leave much more desperately. and, it's going to have a much bigger impact if shes able to avoid poverty with paid leave and quality free childcare that lets her work without spending her whole paycheck on daycare or having to use unlicensed, poor care.