Son Enlisting in the Army

[MixedBerryJam]

Hi all. I'm a reg over on ML and I wonder if any of you can help me. My son is 17, will be 18 in January, and graduating HS in June. He's always had an interest in the military, but never talked about a military career. He's a history buff, esp WWII and I always envisioned him maybe becoming a history teacher or military historian or something; I don't really know. He's been making noises about ROTC for the last few months. A month or so ago he and two friends (who are already 18) met together with an Army recruiter, and the two friends enlisted, and my son brought paperwork home for me to sign off on him enlisting, too. The plan the recruiter presented was that they'd all do basic training together starting 6/14/16, after they all graduate.

I told my son he had my support, but I'd really rather he wait until January, when he can sign up without needing my signoff (after he turns 18, I mean) and that in the meantime I'd really like him to meet with an ROTC person. He (my son) is a stubbornass mule (he's actually a really good kid, respectful, smart, etc.), though, and now has it in his head that enlisting is the way to go (the recruiter was all "ROTC is just a desk job. If you want to do hands-on with armaments you need to enlist, yo" so now he really has dropped his interest in ROTC. In fact, his guidance counselor put me in touch with a graduate of his high school that was ROTC for 22 years and gave me some very helpful information, and I've given the contact information to my son, but my son hasn't followed up with him.

So my question is, all other things being equal, is he going to put himself at a major career deficit if he enlists straight out of high school vs college and ROTC? Should I just let the ROTC thing go, and let him do his own thing? He's a pretty strong-willed kid, and historically, once he puts his mind to something, sees it through. 

Sorry this was such a novel. Do I just need to breathe into a paper bag?

[MixedBerryJam]

Oct 19, 2015 16:15:10 GMT -5 Stan said:

Well, I'm an Army officer (part timer in the Guard), and I don't think I waste my time. My job will be more people managing than shoot shoot bang bang, but officers are important (lol). Any time I hear a recruiter say something pejorative about anyone else in the military, it's because they're either tools or they're trying to make mission. ...

This is what I was thinking, too. I'm not confident that the recruiter my son talked with had my son's actual best interest first-and-foremost when talking to him. I worry that he's more concerned about his quota or his monthly goal or whatever measure his bosses use to evaluate him than the best path for my son, whom he only just met that afternoon.  I don't know how to get him to see that, though, without him talking to non-recruiter-types, too. I love your suggestion about investigating the other branches, too. 

He might kind of have military in his destiny. His first five years of life we lived on a very isolated military base. Kwajalein, MH. Thank you so much for all this info. 

[MixedBerryJam]

Oct 19, 2015 16:18:42 GMT -5 Stan said:

Oh, and if he wants to enlist so badly, he'll still want to after talking to whoever ROTC person. So he should do that to make his mom happy. When he's PV2 MixedBerryJam, he'll be spending virtually all of his time making other people happy by doing things he thinks are a waste of time. He can start with this, lol.

I KNOW! I keep telling him this! I'm just the mom though and I know nothing. Noooooooothinnnnnnnnnnng.

[meltoine]

You can also look up the military pay charts for officer vs. enlisted and show him those. Obvs money isn't everything, but a frank discussion of the lifestyle he can expect on an officer's salary vs. an enlisted salary may help your case as well.

ETA: Does he want to enlist for a few years and then do something else? Or is this a long-term career?

[MixedBerryJam]

Oct 19, 2015 17:51:54 GMT -5 meltoine said:

...

ETA: Does he want to enlist for a few years and then do something else? Or is this a long-term career?

I was asking him this very thing at dinner tonight. He thinks a career is a possibility, but I think he doesnt want to share too much with me because he thinks I disapprove. Which I don't! I just have so many questions, and this is all so new to both of us. He interprets my questions as a backhanded way of getting him to change his mind, so I'm just going to back off a bit. I mean, he's still "only" 17. I sure didnt have my career all planed out at that point, either. 

I'm still worried that he's setting himself up, if he chooses to stay in for a career, to always be at a disadvantage by not entering the service via ROTC. But I understand, also, that plenty of men and women have risen through the ranks ... Right up to the position of Secretary of Defense, right?

[Dory1988]

I enlisted because it was a "foot in the door" for me. I will be in 2 years in December and I have already applied to an enlisted to officer program. Being enlisted is, as Stan said, doing really pointless crap to make other people, generally people who put rank you, happy. I had considered doing ROTC in college then decided against it, applied as direct commission a couple times to no avail, and now I am at the point I already mentioned. If I had known back then what I know now I would have just done ROTC if that was going to be the end result (becoming an officer) anyway. I'd rather have done that than go through the run around I have gone through to get to this point.

[MixedBerryJam]

Oct 19, 2015 19:04:36 GMT -5 Dory1988 said:

I enlisted because it was a "foot in the door" for me. I will be in 2 years in December and I have already applied to an enlisted to officer program. Being enlisted is, as Stan said, doing really pointless crap to make other people, generally people who put rank you, happy. I had considered doing ROTC in college then decided against it, applied as direct commission a couple times to no avail, and now I am at the point I already mentioned. If I had known back then what I know now I would have just done ROTC if that was going to be the end result (becoming an officer) anyway. I'd rather have done that than go through the run around I have gone through to get to this point.

Your path sounds pretty similar to what I kind of expect my son's to be! It's reassuring to me that there is something called an enlisted to officer program. If he decides to stay in, and his superiors think he's office material ( he's super smart, so I already think he is!?) this could well be his track.

[Deleted]

I did ROTC in college (AF though, not Army). it was one of the best experiences of my life. I got a college education -- my grades were good enough after my first year that they offered me a full scholarship for the last three years. (Obviously this was a long time ago,and I have no idea if they still do this, but there is usually potential for at least partial scholarships depending on academic major). I am still active duty Air Force and absolutely love my job.

Recruiters tend to...overstate things. This particular recruiter has a quota to meet, and won't meet it if your son goes ROTC instead of enlisting.

If you think he's on a college track, I would HIGHLY encourage him to at least consider ROTC. He may be able to do ROTC while going to Community College, and most CCs have agreements with in-state schools that students who graduate with a B or better get automatic transfer to in-state 4-year schools. An ROTC scholarship could sweeten the deal. And he should also consider what the other services have to offer.

Also? Have him google the pay chart for military officers vs. enlisted.

Another also? Enlisting just because his buddies did is about the stupidest thing I can imagine. If they jumped off a cliff would he do it too??? (sorry, that's the mom in me talking...)

[NomadicMama]

My DH enlisted in the Army after he graduated from college. After six years, he put in his packet for OCS (Officer Candidate School) and he was accepted. He had a good 20 years and retired earlier this year. I feel that for my DH, he had a good perspective as an officer because of his experience as an enlisted soldier.

There are options available, but your son needs to read up and ask questions. To sign up because his buddies are is not enough. Go with him to talk to recruiters from several branches. My DH comes from an Air Force family, but the Army gave him a better deal.

[G22]

I don't have a ton of advice past what the other ladies have offered. I can offer a ROTC/officer perspective. My H went through ROTC and has been an AF officer for 5 years active duty now. He has yet to have a "desk job" so far. He got told that a ton when he was going through ROTC, that all he'd have was desk jobs once he commissioned. But so far even when he hasn't absolutely loved what he was doing, he wasn't stuck at a desk pushing papers. I think it definitely depends on the job that officers end up in and wouldn't necessarily believe when recruiters say that. It varies, as with most things.

[traveljunkie13]

No ROTC experience but my husband and his twin both enlisted (Navy) a few months out of high school and took very different paths.

BIL is not interested in college at all and viewed the military like an awesome trade school with a steady paycheck. He went in knowing what his strengths were and what navy career he wanted. It wasn't easy but he played the game right and is doing exactly what he wanted years ago. He has worked up to Master Chief (high ranking enlisted) and can retire in 2yrs at the age of 38 with a kick butt pension. He also made sure his skills were marketable and will easily be able to find a high paying job once he leaves the military. He has never been interested in the officer life.

DH joined because his brother did and he wasn't really sure what he wanted to do at 18. He spent several years enlisted just doing the job they told him....basically working to make someone higher up than him happy . He didn't hate it and he didn't love it. He got out of active duty and went reserves for 2yrs while going to community college and figuring out what he wanted to do with his life. He ended up using his GI bill to go to nursing school and then commissioned as an officer in the Air Force (they offered a better deal than Navy). He can retire in 7yrs at the age of 43. My husband loves the officer role but credits his ability to be a great leader on his years as an enlisted.

No matter if your son goes enlisted or ROTC strongly encourage him to think of what he wants to do in the military and what he wants to get out of it. Nothing is guaranteed but knowing how to market yourself and what skills to work your butt off on can have a huge difference in the military world.

[nsl]

My H enlisted when he was seventeen, spent 18 months in the National Guard, and then went to college on an ROTC scholarship and commissioned as an officer when he graduated. That was...18 years ago now, so I'm not sure things still work the same way, but he has no regrets about taking that path. I can't speak to the desk job issue because H is in the Medical Corps and things work a bit differently there than they do in the rest of the Army, but I can say that he works with a number of people who were prior enlisted.

I'd go in to the recruiter's office with him, let the recruiter give you the spiel, and ask some tough questions. I would definitely sit him down with the pay charts and a proposed budget so he can see what he's up for financially if he chooses either route. I'd also insist that he talk to the ROTC rep (preferably with you present) since you're doing your part by speaking with the recruiter.

[traveljunkie13]

And please make him talk to other branches. Each branch is great in their own way and offers different things. He needs to go into this with knowledge. Look at pay charts, base locations, career opportunities.....

Joining the army because he has researched and wants to is 100% awesome.......joining because his buddies did is a HUGE mistake. Military life can be great (we love it and I really hope one of my kiddos follow their father's footsteps) but you are signing away much more than a few years when you sign that paper.

[MixedBerryJam]

OMGosh these responses are so, so helpful. Not just with the factual information you're sharing, which, believe me, I appreciate so, so much... but the stories of how each of you or your spouses has gpttem to a place in your lives where you're happy and "successful" (however you define success, as each one of us has our own definition, don't we) and that the military played and plays such a positive role in that success. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I'm still anxious, but not feeling so ... unknowing. OMG Thank you again!

[dcn]

My DH idid ROTC mostly because he knew he wanted to be a physical therapist, but really wanted to serve too. The Army itself has a physical therapy program but he went to a civilian college.

He has since gone back for another masters as his career goals have changed which will set him up for a great second career after he retires at 43. He's been active duty army for almost 11 years. He works with a lot of prior enlisted in the medical side of things, there are many programs offered if that is something your son is interested in.

I agree that your son should think about things he may possibly want to do in 5,10,15 years and think about which career path may help him get there (enlisted or officer). Explore other branches, talk to an ROTC rep, etc. I don't think DH regrets his decision at all, the Army has opened up a ton of doors and opportunity for him, even as an officer.

[kpol]

MH went through ROTC but was enlisted in the Army Reserves at the same time. He went to basic during summer break and went to drill one weekend a month. I don't really remember his reasoning for doing that (we didn't know each other at the time), but I know he doesn't regret taking that route now. He's still Active Duty, but his current assignment is as an ROTC instructor. He says a student will come in every once and a while with questions about the Army and ROTC. He also says that commissioning for Active Duty slots for cadets are harder to come by than they were in his day. Cadets have to be really dedicated to the program if they want the AD slot.

If you live near a University and your son is really interested in the ROTC program, he could stop into their department or give them a call to ask questions and get some guidance.

[Deleted]

Oct 20, 2015 1:20:10 GMT -5 G22 said:

I don't have a ton of advice past what the other ladies have offered. I can offer a ROTC/officer perspective. My H went through ROTC and has been an AF officer for 5 years active duty now. He has yet to have a "desk job" so far. He got told that a ton when he was going through ROTC, that all he'd have was desk jobs once he commissioned. But so far even when he hasn't absolutely loved what he was doing, he wasn't stuck at a desk pushing papers. I think it definitely depends on the job that officers end up in and wouldn't necessarily believe when recruiters say that. It varies, as with most things.

 
Exactly this!  I've been an officer for almost 13 years and I don't even HAVE a desk.  I know this is kinda rare, especially for officers in the Air Force, and I obviously can't speak for Army officers.   But seriously.   Is the recruiter an officer?  Probably not.  So he/she can't really talk to what officers do, can he/she?   

[Dory1988]

I think maybe 1/4 the officers I know actually have desks but I suppose it's a bit different being medical.

[amaristella]

Well. First things first. If you don't want to sign the early entry papers you don't have to sign them. That's totally up to you. It won't hurt him long or short term to wait a few months.

Second. Is enlisting at 18 bad for his career? No. Is sitting around in college/ROTC for a few years bad for him? No. There is no single path for military careers. I know several quality individuals who enlisted when they were young and then entered an officer program later in their career and it worked out great for them. There are also plenty of individuals who get a great start in life just by doing a single 4 year enlistment and then getting out. I have acquaintances right now whose husbands served with my husband during his first tour and they got out at the four year mark with their cute little families and are doing fabulously in the civilian world.

So, on the one hand the recruiter's comments seem very short-sighted but on the other hand it just depends on what your son's life path vision is at the moment. And make sure he hears you when you tell him that starting in basic training together is a very short term way to stick with his friends. As others said, they still might not even start together and it's highly unlikely that they will continue in their careers together. They may, just in a stroke of good luck, get stationed in the same place during their careers but that's dependent on a lot of factors.

My husband's story is that he, (a bit like your son) grew up with a well-developed interest in military history, tactical videos games, etc. And let me tell you that that interest has helped him to fit in incredibly well in the Naval officer community.

Initially he was in Navy ROTC for two years but they cut him from the program. He was determined, though, so he finished up his dual-degree, worked on making himself an attractive candidate, and then went the OCS route. Also something I will mention is that my husband has worked with a number of other officers who graduated from the Naval Academy. There are other colleges for other branches. But many people also find that to be a good path. For Navy guys, though, I will definitely say that the academy graduates were funneled into a handful of working communities. They weren't exactly handed a plate with all the different officer communities to choose from at graduation.

[audette]

DH enlisted first, and did five years enlisted, got out, and used his GI Bill to fund college. He also chose to do ROTC while in college, and re-entered the army as an officer at graduation. That was almost 10 years ago. (we met shortly before he finished his enlistment term)

From what I've seen, this is a bit of an unusual path (most seem to apply to go for various programs while enlisted to sort of transfer to the officer side, instead of getting fully out and re-entering). But, it has worked well for DH, and he is relatively happy with his career.

We're both a little frustrated with big army/big military crap at the moment (hello, promotion list? where are you?), but I will certainly say that on the whole, the army has been a good thing for DH. But, from other folks I know, I think there can be things that are incredibly frustrating at times on both the officer and the enlisted side.

I think DH would be the first to say that the jobs/work have been very different between his time enlisted and his time as an officer. Expectations are also very different, as well.


Anyways, the point I was trying to make is that enlisting now does not remove the option of your son doing ROTC later.


I will suggest you get your son in front of recruiters for other services. DH himself will admit that had he known then what he knows now, he probably would have picked a different service.

[MixedBerryJam]

Oct 21, 2015 8:21:20 GMT -5 audette said:

DH enlisted first, and did five years enlisted, got out, and used his GI Bill to fund college. He also chose to do ROTC while in college, and re-entered the army as an officer at graduation.  ...

What an interesting career path! This, in addition to all the other feedback in this post, is very reassuring to hear as an option. It's kind of what I might like to see happen. I worry that my son sells himself short, that he doesn't think of himself as officer material, when, in fact, he is super smaht and imaginative and always looking at the details of a given situation. I'm still hand-wringing over here, but much less so in the last 48 hours, thanks to all your feedback! Thank you all, so, so, so much!

[pennylane]

I'm here to offer anecdotes.
My little brother joined the Army Reserves before he finished high school and went to boot camp a month or so after graduation. My Mom was pissed (because to her army= deployment to war). He ended up only doing 4 years or so and used the GI bill to partially fund college while he did his weekend duty. Now he's got a job as an engineer.

My H did Navy ROTC- and was commissioned upon graduation. He got picked up for flight school and has been flying around in airplanes for the past 6 years. He has yet to be on a boat. Next year he will start a masters program (paid for by the Navy), which to me is awesome. He's undecided about staying in for 20 years- it basically depends on the orders available when the contract is up. Not having tons of loans for all of his education is a huge blessing for us. And for the most part, he loves what he does.

My BIL enlisted in the Navy and has been in about 10 years. He has also never been on a boat bc of the jobs he's had. However- he's had a hard time moving up the ranks bc of promotion rates. His family also seems to struggle much more with money (not too surprising when you look at the pay charts).

Every military career path can be so different. I echo the rec to talk to different recruiters. I'd encourage him to think about what his long term goals are and find out what military jobs could help get him there.

[killercupcake]

Oct 20, 2015 4:18:56 GMT -5 traveljunkie13 said:

And please make him talk to other branches. Each branch is great in their own way and offers different things. He needs to go into this with knowledge. Look at pay charts, base locations, career opportunities.....

Joining the army because he has researched and wants to is 100% awesome.......joining because his buddies did is a HUGE mistake. Military life can be great (we love it and I really hope one of my kiddos follow their father's footsteps) but you are signing away much more than a few years when you sign that paper.

YES. 

This is one of the best pieces of advice I think we as a board have given in the past. The branches are so different, BUT can be very similar in terms of what they do. 

H loved the Marine Corps. It was a dream of his to be a Marine, but he also mentioned, several times, that he wishes he had spoken to Air Force before he made a decision. He jumped into it because we were engaged and he wanted to be able to provide for us. 

And hey, there's also nothing wrong with waiting a little while to make a decision. H celebrated his 21st birthday in boot camp. He was considered "old" by military standards, but it worked out okay. 

I haven't closely read the rest of the thread (I forgot my glasses at work), so forgive me if this has been mentioned already... Your son can also take college courses while enlisted. It can be tough depending on the job he gets (H wanted to, but as a grunt, he had a difficult time making the schedule work, but I know others who have successfully completed college credits and earned at least an associate's while enlisted). 

[killercupcake]

Oct 22, 2015 20:32:12 GMT -5 Stan said:

Oct 22, 2015 19:37:27 GMT -5 killercupcake said:

And hey, there's also nothing wrong with waiting a little while to make a decision. H celebrated his 21st birthday in boot camp. He was considered "old" by military standards, but it worked out okay. 

I looked for a gif of an old lady shaking her cane, but this'll do. 

lol You know it's true though!

[killercupcake]

Oct 22, 2015 20:35:48 GMT -5 Stan said:

Oct 22, 2015 20:33:53 GMT -5 killercupcake said:

lol You know it's true though!

No way dude! Did he go to boot camp in the summer with all the babies? H routinely puts in guys who are 20-25. And the Army lets you in forever (I am proof). 

He reported to MCRD on 1 August. So yes. lol

[creamsiclechica]

MixedBerryJam, I'm late to this discussion, and I think you've been given some excellent advice. I will add that my husband is an enlisted infantryman, 14 years of service next month, Army. He has little regret about his career track, except that they changed the timelines a few years back about being able to switch from enliste to officer, and he missed the cutoff, and as a career guy, it's a significant difference in your retirement pay to stay enlisted. So the suggestion to look at pay rates/BAH charts to show him the difference is a really good one.

That said, my husband has been able to get a degree using tuition assistance and military friendly universities without touching his GI Bill. He's had a successful career that afforded a happy and prosperous life. He also joined young (20), so he'll be able to retire from the military with a great paycheck and be able to carry that time in service over to a job in the government sector with 10 point veteran status consideration, which was one of the big factors in considering staying in the full twenty years.

Again, he would definitely encourage enlistment, but definitely reiterate that if a military career (long term one) is what he's considering, higher education at some point should be on his radar. Many of the standards for promotion on the enlisted side are changing too, and military schools aren't enough to get the bigger promotions anymore. College education is becoming a major component for advancement now, so it's something to think about as well when weighing it against ROTC.
Good luck to both of you!

[mj0818]

Oct 19, 2015 16:15:10 GMT -5 Stan said:

Well, I'm an Army officer (part timer in the Guard), and I don't think I waste my time. My job will be more people managing than shoot shoot bang bang, but officers are important (lol). Any time I hear a recruiter say something pejorative about anyone else in the military, it's because they're either tools or they're trying to make mission. Those guys do work with officer recruiting, but they don't need to make numbers the way they do with enlisted contracts. Infantry platoon level officers get to be in the field/combat with their troops. One thing I will suggest is that he talks, if he's interest in being in the infantry, at least to the Marine Corps as well. If he's not dead set on being an infantryman, then I suggest he talk to the Navy, AF, and even the Coast Guard as well. It sounds like the Army is partially a friend driven decision, and they won't even get to be together in the big Army most likely. The Marines or other branch might be more to his taste. I'm a Soldier married to a Marine recruiter. I'm meant to be a Soldier and my husband is meant to be a Marine. My BFF is an AF Lieutenant, and she's meant to be in the AF, KWIM?

Anyway, I know it's hard on your side. Being a parent and having your juvenile child come to you with this would be crazy hard. My mom wouldn't even talk to me about the military, so I finished college partially to make her happy. I often wish I'd enlisted at 21 like I wanted to. If this is who he wants to be, I wish him luck. His recruiter sounds like a tool though.

I agree with all of this. I'm a recruiter for the National Guard. Every Soldier's (or military member's) path is different. If he wants to go to college, then I would encourage him to look at part time options (Reserves and National Guard) and ROTC. He can join the military now to get the adventure/training/independence that he craves, but still get an education. Basic training can be done over the summer to minimize the amount of college time he will miss. The National Guard has a concurrent program with ROTC called SMP; basically, be a soldier and be in ROTC.
A good recruiter will not talk badly about other services/branches/jobs; he will realize we all have our own path and move on to the next potential candidate.

[moolarkey]

My son did AF ROTC. Only 1 freshman got a full ride, at the end of that year they could walk away and not owe any payback or time to the AF. That freshman walked but had 1 year of college fully paid. Had she stayed she would have had a full ride for the remaining years and owed several years to the AF (either 4 or 6, I forget now).

At the time my son was in ROTC, they were giving very few scholarships. There were no sophomore scholarships, a couple partial junior 'ships and I think 1 given to a senior, might have been 3 given to seniors.

Each year there is 1 freshman given the full-ride opportunity, as I mentioned the one from DS's class walked at the end of freshman year.

The guy who was the senior full-ride that year .... should have been set to graduate from college and move on in as an officer in the AF. He was deemed unsuitable to not only be an officer but even in the AF. He was booted out AND he had to pay back all 4 years.

I am not kidding. Why it took them that long to determine his personality was unfit, I have no idea and DS never heard other than personality. Guy hadn't been arrested for anything or committed any crime.

I'd still recommend ROTC and college over enlisting.

[moolarkey]

Nov 9, 2015 22:41:00 GMT -5 Stan said:

Nov 9, 2015 19:16:13 GMT -5 moolarkey said:

I'd still recommend ROTC and college over enlisting.

But why? I get prickly at the idea that being an officer is automatically better. 

Didn't say being an officer is better. I didn't give a reason. So if you're getting prickly over what I DID say, then that's on you.

My reasons would be - getting their college education, learning about the military and deciding if it is the right way of life for them, general maturing before taking on that type of commitment.  With AF ROTC you don't have a commitment until summer before your junior year so you can spend 2 years in ROTC with no military commitment but you learn a lot that will help you in life from both being in college and being in ROTC. Should you stay in, you'll earn other skills that will help you both in the military and outside the military should you only serve your minimum commitment.

[MixedBerryJam]

Coming back in to tell you all again how helpful this thread has been! Thank you again.

Well, my son is bound-and-determined to enlist, so after many conversations with him, I signed off on the parent papers for him (he's still 17) and has his ASVAB (?) and physical next week. The recruiter he's working with texted him that he (the recruiter) has his (my son's) contract and he was approved for armor, which was my son's first choice, so he's happy about that. They're looking at basic training in June at Fort Benning.