LDS Church: Gays are Apostates & We Won't Baptize Their Kids

[debatethis]

Oh good. This is going to go so well for them.

www.ksl.com/?sid=37248288&nid=148&title=lds-church-children-of-same-sex-couples-not-eligible-for-membership&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory

SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church confirmed Thursday that children living with same-sex parents or guardians will not be allowed membership in the church until reaching "legal age" and the individual "disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage."

The new instructions are included in a revision to Handbook 1, the guide for stake presidents and bishops.

The criteria for membership also requires an individual to no longer be living with a parent "who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage." A mission president or a stake president must now request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for an individual in these circumstances.

Church spokesman Erik Hawkins released the following statement:

"Church handbooks are policy and procedural guides for lay leaders who must administer the Church in many varied circumstances throughout the world. The Church has long been on record as opposing same-sex marriages. While it respects the law of the land, and acknowledges the right of others to think and act differently, it does not perform or accept same-sex marriage within its membership."

Handbook 1, number 6.7.2 has been updated as follows (addition is highlighted):

When a Disciplinary Council May Be Necessary

Serious Transgression

. . . It includes (but is not limited to) attempted murder, forcible rape, sexual abuse, spouse abuse, intentional serious physical injury of others, adultery, fornication, homosexual relations (especially sexual cohabitation), deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities, . . .


Handbook 1, number 6.7.3 has been updated as follows (addition is highlighted):

When a Disciplinary Council is Mandatory

Apostasy

As used here, apostasy refers to members who:

Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Are in a same-gender marriage.
Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.


A new section in Handbook 1, 16.13 has been added as follows:

Children of a Parent Living in a Same-Gender Relationship

A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing.

A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows:

A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:

The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.


Equality Utah released the following statement:

"In America all churches have the religious liberty to welcome or exclude whomever they desire," said executive director Troy Williams. "But we know that children of same-sex parents are treasures of infinite worth. In our universe, all God's children have a place in the choir."

[aurora]

I don't know the details of baptism in the Mormon church, but does this mean they don't consider the children of same-sex couples worthy of protecting from original sin (as in, my understanding of the reason for baptism in other churches)? What a way to demonstrate love!

[Cicero]

Nov 6, 2015 10:49:02 GMT -5 aurora said:

I don't know the details of baptism in the Mormon church, but does this mean they don't consider the children of same-sex couples worthy of protecting from original sin (as in, my understanding of the reason for baptism in other churches)? What a way to demonstrate love!

I'm not sure what the position of baptism is in Mormonism but in the large majority of Protestant denominations baptism has nothing to do with original sin (hence the adult baptism) so maybe not?

ETA: According to lds.about.com they don't believe in original sin. Don't know how accurate that is.

[msmerymac]

Yeah, yeah, cult what? Big surprise.

PS, Salt Lake City just elected an openly gay mayor, Jackie Biskupski. SLC is less than 50% LDS, and probably more diverse than people realize, being an actual city and all. But the further suburbs and virtually all of the rest of Utah is conservative, so yeah.

[aurora]

Cicero, thanks for the explanation. My Catholic upbringing is obvious:

www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

[debatethis]

Nov 6, 2015 10:49:02 GMT -5 aurora said:

I don't know the details of baptism in the Mormon church, but does this mean they don't consider the children of same-sex couples worthy of protecting from original sin (as in, my understanding of the reason for baptism in other churches)? What a way to demonstrate love!

They use different terminology but the end result is the same. LDS kids are baptized at 8 years old as one of their sacraments (I'm probably not using the right words but I'm Episcopalian). They can't be saved, become full Church members, go into the temples, serve on a mission or anything else without baptism, much in the same way as the RCC sacraments are required prior to church membership.

They're also making huge glaring errors in pretty much any modern understanding of the call to baptize. Of course every denomination interprets it differently, but regardless of denomination baptism is a public declaration of turning away from your own sins (or, promising to raise your children in the church), not the sins* of your family, and to require baptism candidates to literally renounce their own families as a prerequisite for salvation is disgusting.

*I don't believe being gay is a sin, to be clear.

[aurora]

Nov 6, 2015 11:59:22 GMT -5 debatethis said:

Nov 6, 2015 10:49:02 GMT -5 aurora said:

I don't know the details of baptism in the Mormon church, but does this mean they don't consider the children of same-sex couples worthy of protecting from original sin (as in, my understanding of the reason for baptism in other churches)? What a way to demonstrate love!

They use different terminology but the end result is the same. LDS kids are baptized at 8 years old as one of their sacraments (I'm probably not using the right words but I'm Episcopalian). They can't be saved, become full Church members, go into the temples, serve on a mission or anything else without baptism, much in the same way as the RCC sacraments are required prior to church membership.

They're also making huge glaring errors in pretty much any modern understanding of the call to baptize. Of course every denomination interprets it differently, but regardless of denomination baptism is a public declaration of turning away from your own sins (or, promising to raise your children in the church), not the sins* of your family, and to require baptism candidates to literally renounce their own families as a prerequisite for salvation is disgusting.

*I don't believe being gay is a sin, to be clear.

But see the quote above that I posted from the Vatican. Isn't that saying that in the RCC, baptism also takes care of original sin?

(I'm not Catholic anymore so my memory/understanding may be hazy.)

[heyjude]

WTF?!!!!!!

[debatethis]

Nov 6, 2015 12:02:50 GMT -5 aurora said:

Nov 6, 2015 11:59:22 GMT -5 debatethis said:

They use different terminology but the end result is the same. LDS kids are baptized at 8 years old as one of their sacraments (I'm probably not using the right words but I'm Episcopalian). They can't be saved, become full Church members, go into the temples, serve on a mission or anything else without baptism, much in the same way as the RCC sacraments are required prior to church membership.

They're also making huge glaring errors in pretty much any modern understanding of the call to baptize. Of course every denomination interprets it differently, but regardless of denomination baptism is a public declaration of turning away from your own sins (or, promising to raise your children in the church), not the sins* of your family, and to require baptism candidates to literally renounce their own families as a prerequisite for salvation is disgusting.

*I don't believe being gay is a sin, to be clear.

But see the quote above that I posted from the Vatican. Isn't that saying that in the RCC, baptism also takes care of original sin?

(I'm not Catholic anymore so my memory/understanding may be hazy.)

I'm honestly not sure. I haven't studied the RCC or the LDS church that deeply in several years so I don't want to speak out of turn. That said, here's what LDS.org says about original sin. The bold part is mine since these new baptism requirements absolutely are a performative contradiction.

www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/original-sin?lang=eng

Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, all people live in a fallen condition, separated from God and subject to physical death. However, we are not condemned by what many call the “original sin.” In other words, we are not accountable for Adam’s transgression in the Garden of Eden. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (Articles of Faith 1:2). [pretty rich that they are going to punish children for their parents' sins, eh?]

[downtoearth]

I am such an atheist that I'm not surprised and have a hard time figuring out why a lgbt person would want to be part of this church to begin with. I know there are camps of people who want the church to recognize LGBT kids or people as members, but I am removed enough from organized religion to admit I don't understand the drive behind that.

[zelda25]

One of my non-Mormon cousins posted this article on FB along with a comment about how appalled she is by it; I'm waiting to see if one of our numerous Mormon cousins engage. I'll be disappointed, but not surprised, if they keep out of it.

[kirra]

And yet they're fine baptizing dead people.

[debatethis]

Nov 6, 2015 12:27:36 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

I am such an atheist that I'm not surprised and have a hard time figuring out why a lgbt person would want to be part of this church to begin with. I know there are camps of people who want the church to recognize LGBT kids or people as members, but I am removed enough from organized religion to admit I don't understand the drive behind that.

If you grew up LDS (or even Catholic or I would assume any other religion) I think there's a great deal of desire to want to raise your family the way you were raised. It's hard to emotionally separate from tradition even in more "moderate" faiths - I can imagine in a belief set like the LDS where families cutting you off if you leave the church is commonplace, it would be that much harder to leave. You're pretty much blackballed in many cases so you lose your church, your support system, and your whole family. Talk about a mindfuck.

[downtoearth]

Nov 6, 2015 12:35:00 GMT -5 debatethis said:

Nov 6, 2015 12:27:36 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

I am such an atheist that I'm not surprised and have a hard time figuring out why a lgbt person would want to be part of this church to begin with. I know there are camps of people who want the church to recognize LGBT kids or people as members, but I am removed enough from organized religion to admit I don't understand the drive behind that.

If you grew up LDS (or even Catholic or I would assume any other religion) I think there's a great deal of desire to want to raise your family the way you were raised. It's hard to emotionally separate from tradition even in more "moderate" faiths - I can imagine in a belief set like the LDS where families cutting you off if you leave the church is commonplace, it would be that much harder to leave. You're pretty much blackballed in many cases so you lose your church, your support system, and your whole family. Talk about a mindfuck.

That ability to disregard family members outside the church is so messed up.

I grew up Catholic and have a sister with the same divinity graduate degree as scholarly, Jesuit priest and she is still trying to change the church from within. I still don't understand her either, but Catholicism is also much more embracing and we can still celebrate community events together without the such exclusivity and judgment with my entire Catholic family.

[heyjude]

Nov 6, 2015 12:43:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

Kind of sounds like North Korea--punishment for generations based on one individual.

This is what I was thinking.

They are actually on record as supporting the "punishment" children for the "sins" of their parents.

It's quite repulsive. Even for the LDS church. Who have desperately tried to tamper down their repulsive quotient lately.

FAIL.

[aurora]

Nov 6, 2015 12:32:17 GMT -5 kirra said:

And yet they're fine baptizing dead people.

I was actually thinking here is the bright side: anyone with same-sex parents won't have to worry about posthumous baptism when they die!

[wambam]

"The sins of the father" is a reason a lot of fundamentalists Christians (particularly of the Gothard variety) eschew adoption. So it doesn't surprise me that a religious group is using it to get rid of even the mention of icky gayz. Additionally, one of the Sister Wives kids tried to join the mainstream Mormon church and she was rejected because she refused to cut ties with her family. It doesn't seem like a good move for the Mormon church to reject people based on their families of origin, but not surprising to me either.

[wambam]

Nov 6, 2015 13:02:16 GMT -5 @mx said:

Nov 6, 2015 12:54:46 GMT -5 wambam said:

"The sins of the father" is a reason a lot of fundamentalists Christians (particularly of the Gothard variety) eschew adoption. So it doesn't surprise me that a religious group is using it to get rid of even the mention of icky gayz. Additionally, one of the Sister Wives kids tried to join the mainstream Mormon church and she was rejected because she refused to cut ties with her family. It doesn't seem like a good move for the Mormon church to reject people based on their families of origin, but not surprising to me either.

I'm interested in learning more about this--do you have some links? (I know you do

Gothard and adoption? www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/adoption-the-ultimate-act-of-grace/

[debbiedowner]

Those poor poor children of gays outside the LDS church won't get to be baptized posthumously.

[cville]

In addition to this outright, disgusting bigotry, they also use "forcible" as a qualifier for rape. So, totes cool with nonforcible rape, i.e., anyone who is raped is guilty until proven innocent. Fuck them.

[jigsy]

I want to say that is awful, but the hips I had to jump through in order to remove myself from the records makes me wish I had to wait until I was a legal adult before being baptized.
So shitty policy, but at least it's saving kids from doing something they don't fully understand.

And WTF to homosexuality being akin to attempted murder. Eesh.

[heyjude]

Nov 6, 2015 19:29:51 GMT -5 jigsy said:

I want to say that is awful, but the hips I had to jump through in order to remove myself from the records makes me wish I had to wait until I was a legal adult before being baptized.
So shitty policy, but at least it's saving kids from doing something they don't fully understand.

And WTF to homosexuality being akin to attempted murder. Eesh.

There is a lawyer on the ex Mormon board on Reddit right now offering to be a pro bono go between for anyone who wants to leave the church because of today's announcement. He will do all the leg work to get you off the Mormon rolls.