Financial Decisions, Does becoming an Expat make sense?

[stellarose]

Hi, I'll probably cross post on MM too. 

So this week is a big week for me.  I need to either accept the expatriate position my company has given me or decline.  I have done a lot of research, husband and I have completed a look/see trip and now we are just running the numbers to make sure this makes financial sense for us.  I have recently been promoted to a manager title which now gives me the opportunity to see the pay ranges of my direct reports.  In my industry, it is not common or public knowledge what each band level or pay range is.  I have had a hunch that my previous manager always hired me in at the bare minimum pay ranges, but could never prove it.....until now.    So now seeing the ranges of the three reports under me, I know that i have consistently been held at the minimum of each pay range, despite getting the highest ratings on job performances every year I have worked there.  

So now is my time to make sure things make sense for me.  I am a highly sought after candidate for this role.  I do know it is mine if I say yes.  I have been approached by three directors involved telling me how desperately they need me to take this role since I am a unique candidate that has a combination of all skillsets they are looking for.  The one weird piece is I have not received an actual number offer from the hiring manager.  I asked her last week if I could see it prior to our next meeting and she said she would try.  ?  The other director I met with was surprised by this as well.  He gave me an idea of what I could expect.  He is expecting it to be a 10% pay increase.  

Now, I am not sure how most expatriate situations work out, but we are in the position that my husband might have to take a freeze on his employment during the 2-3 years. He's been interviewing in the new location, but we will not know prior to us making the decision whether he will have a job or not.  With that said, I am factoring that he won't just to see if this makes sense.  

With the promotion, I would go to the next band level, but 10% seems right at the entry pay range.  Typically at this company, you can get upwards of 20% increase before the hiring manager would need further sign off.  I would get an additional hardship pay and a year bonus for being away from family and friends.  Housing, etc. would be taken care of as well.  All of this is factored in to my scenario.  
At 10% increase with no job for my DH, we would be ahead only $22K a year.  I know that is a decent amount, especially since DH wouldn't be working, but this does not feel like enough for me to be away from everything I love + plus DH taking a break and earning potential of his dream job.  
20% to me is more my bare minimum, which would put us a head $37K a year from where we are now.  This to me feels like a respectable bare minimum, but maybe I'm very off on my expectations.

I'll have to be negotiating this week which I will have many questions on.  I just keep going back to how much they need me, how I'm the only one that can hit the ground running, I'll have lots of additional responsibility put on me in the meantime.  The two others that have already accepted have been in the higher band level for several years so they most likely higher in the pay range, but in terms of the new job requirements are lacking in some big skillsets.

What do you think?  What were the financial discussions you had prior to accepting an expat role in order for it to make sense for you?  TIA, this has been beyond stressful to process.

[origami]

For us, the pay bands for each position are known so we were in a different spot. DH got an appropriate level of pay for the level he's at so we were not concerned with his salary so much as the extra incentives like school for the kids, housing and cost of living adjustment because we were moving to a much more expensive location. All of his bonuses and things are calculated by a formula and there is no negotiating at his company. The package is what it is. We did not know any of the actual #s until after he accepted. We just knew if we accepted there would be some additional money for x y z.

If your job is not paying you a competitive, appropriate rate then you absolutely should negotiate for more. It sounds like you are in a good position to do so, knowing what others are receiving. DH's company did not give a rat's ass that I had to turn down a job and my lack of salary was a non-factor so I would caution you not to use that too much in your negotiating. Your pay/benefits should reflect your experience and work quality and be comparable to your coworkers/the industry.

One other thing I want to mention is that I've seen expat situations go a few different ways. My good friends did an assignment, lived frugally, saved every extra dime and now have a lot of extra money. They did not "live it up," so to speak. We on the other hand are traveling like crazy and while we aren't hurting, we aren't going to go back with anything extra. I love it and I wouldn't have it any other way. Just wanted to mention that if savings are a priority you may want to consider extra expenses you wouldn't otherwise have, namely traveling.

GL!

[jennybee1018]

We became expats because it made financial sense for us in the long run to move halfway across the world. Seven years later, it still makes sense! We've paid off all our student loan debt, and have no debt in general, and now we're just able to travel and save. We did get lucky because we came for DH's job, and I ended up finding one about a year after we arrived. I'm not sure that we would have stayed this long if that had not happened.

We did discuss that before hand though, and knew that it would help if I could find something, however, we would have been fine on just DH's salary, if I didn't find something. So that made it enough for us to take the job.

If you are highly qualified for this position and are one of the few people who can do it, I'd definitely negotiate and make sure they're paying you what you're worth (especially if you were underpaid previously, which seems like the case). I know you said housing is taking care of, what other benefits/allowances are offered? That is something else to take into account, possibly negotiate for if they can't promise you the salary that you want.

I would start by asking for the 20% and see what they say! If it is not going to be worth it for your husband to leave his job and you to leave family, then don't hesitate to say no. You have to do what is best for you!

[mrsukyankee]

Definitely ask for the things you need, including an introduction to a headhunter to help your H find a job. If you are that important, they will find a way to get you there! I would also like to say that while finance is important, moving overseas gives you so much more than you could ever quantify.

[rupertpenny]

We were a little different because we are not true expats, we are both technically local hires so there were no expat packages or anything.

Moving abroad has been amazing for is financially. We have more than trebled our HHI since moving less than 2 years ago and I expect that to be more than quadrupled by the end of 2016. We spend more on rent and travel, but way less in taxes, healthcare, childcare, and local transportation. That is all very location dependent though, so your mileage may vary.

I think you should definitely try to negotiate up if you can. Moving abroad is huge, especially if your h may not be able to work, so you have to make sure that it is to your advantage to do so.

[pittpurple]

We aren't expats either - we wanted to travel and experience another country so my DH found a job overseas. We've been here 10 years and counting. We didn't make this decision for financial reasons at all, we weren't sure if I'd find a job and really had no idea how it would all play out. For us though, we wanted the experiences and the travel and all the extras. We have been surprised at how well it's all worked out for us - we both have jobs we enjoy and make enough money that we bought a house and travel regularly (though much less in the last few years!) and all the perks to living in a country with health care and maternity pay and all the extras have definitely put us ahead of where we thought we would be by now.

If you're making this decision based solely on finances, you'll just have to figure out what would make it worth it to you and be prepared to say no if they don't meet it. If your company can afford what you want and you know other people are being paid that much, then you should get it too. And I do agree with the PP - your husband's earning potential has nothing to do with your salary so I would keep that separate for sure.

I would also really consider how your husband would do if he didn't have a job. I know where I work (a University), there have been situations where we wanted a high-level professor enough to include a spousal job offer in the package so if that's a make or break (assuming you work at the same place which it sounds like?) would it be worth speaking to your manager about this? I know this gets tricky in different industries for sure. But if he didn't get the job he wanted, what would he do for the time you were overseas and would he be happy? I was just out of college so was ready for whatever happened and happy to work at a coffee shop or entry level anything really, but if he really enjoys what he's doing and doesn't want to leave it could definitely affect how happy you are to be overseas.

[stellarose]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I agree that my husband's earning potential cannot be part of the negotiation, but it is worth considering for us on whether this makes sense or not. I know there is a lot of experience that comes from an expat role. It's not our dream country by any means, but it will be nice and offer a lot of opportunities to travel.

I heard back from the hiring manager and I am getting an offer at 11. I'll check back in later today to let you know how it goes!  Today I'm just receiving and asking to review it this week.  Then I can counter. 

[stellarose]

Okay quick update.....the offer I got was for 25% increase! Woohoo! Now I'll put all the details together tonight and work on a counter offer.

Now to decide if I should ask for more or be content with what I got. I may want to ask for more salary knowing the housing budget is slightly low and that will not be an easy thing to change as of now.

I'll post again tonight with all the details. I really appreciate all your guidance and support. SO stressful, but so exciting!

[origami]

Yay! I'm glad their first offer was good!

What you posted about it not being your dream country reminded me that is how I felt when we were deciding whether or not to move. We are in South Korea. I made DH turn down 2 opportunities to move here before I was cool with it because I was not excited to live here. I am SO glad we finally accepted though. Being an expat is so exciting IMO. It's also a huge challenge and there are plenty of things that drive me crazy (incl me being unable to get a work visa and find a real job in my field) but the benefits far outweigh the minuses. I mentioned travel before but that is by far the best part of my experience. We are seeing places I probably never would have visited otherwise and for WAY less money than it otherwise would have cost. If there is a strong international/expat community at this location then hopefully there will be lots of parties and get togethers. I love meeting people from all over the world and hearing about their culture. I highly recommend anyone with an expat opportunity take it. Well, within reason.

[GilliC]

I was part of a dual-career couple, so the financial side wasn't really a concern for us.

As for not being your dream country, when we accepted the transfer to Norway (mostly to get out of a bad situation at our Beijing office), I knew almost nothing about it. It turns out that I love it here and ended up taking a local contract and putting down roots earlier than I'd planned! I would never have expected to end up here long-term!

I've found that it's hard to know quite what you're looking for until you find it!