Post by stellarose on Jan 31, 2016 19:55:54 GMT -5
Hi, cross posted on International Living too.
So this week is a big week for me. I need to either accept the expatriate position my company has given me or decline. I have done a lot of research, husband and I have completed a look/see trip and now we are just running the numbers to make sure this makes financial sense for us. I have recently been promoted to a manager title which now gives me the opportunity to see the pay ranges of my direct reports. In my industry, it is not common or public knowledge what each band level or pay range is. I have had a hunch that my previous manager always hired me in at the bare minimum pay ranges, but could never prove it.....until now. So now seeing the ranges of the three reports under me, I know that i have consistently been held at the minimum of each pay range, despite getting the highest ratings on job performances every year I have worked there.
So now is my time to make sure things make sense for me. I am a highly sought after candidate for this role. I do know it is mine if I say yes. I have been approached by three directors involved telling me how desperately they need me to take this role since I am a unique candidate that has a combination of all skillsets they are looking for. The one weird piece is I have not received an actual number offer from the hiring manager. I asked her last week if I could see it prior to our next meeting and she said she would try. ? The other director I met with was surprised by this as well. He gave me an idea of what I could expect. He is expecting it to be a 10% pay increase.
Now, I am not sure how most expatriate situations work out, but we are in the position that my husband might have to take a freeze on his employment during the 2-3 years. He's been interviewing in the new location, but we will not know prior to us making the decision whether he will have a job or not. With that said, I am factoring that he won't just to see if this makes sense.
With the promotion, I would go to the next band level, but 10% seems right at the entry pay range. Typically at this company, you can get upwards of 20% increase before the hiring manager would need further sign off. I would get an additional hardship pay and a year bonus for being away from family and friends. Housing, etc. would be taken care of as well. All of this is factored in to my scenario.
At 10% increase with no job for my DH, we would be ahead only $22K a year. I know that is a decent amount, especially since DH wouldn't be working, but this does not feel like enough for me to be away from everything I love + plus DH taking a break and earning potential of his dream job.
20% to me is more my bare minimum, which would put us a head $37K a year from where we are now. This to me feels like a respectable bare minimum, but maybe I'm very off on my expectations.
I'll have to be negotiating this week which I will have many questions on. I just keep going back to how much they need me, how I'm the only one that can hit the ground running, I'll have lots of additional responsibility put on me in the meantime. The two others that have already accepted have been in the higher band level for several years so they most likely higher in the pay range, but in terms of the new job requirements are lacking in some big skillsets.
What do you think? What were the financial discussions you had prior to accepting an expat role in order for it to make sense for you? TIA, this has been beyond stressful to process.
For you to uproot yourself and your family, I think you are totally in-line to ask for 20%. They need you, you match the special circumstances and skill set of this position. It sounds like you've been undervalued and if I were you, I'd expect that to be made up before accepting this role.
Question: if you don't go expat, will this impact your current job situation? Are there other employers out there that might be a better fit/compensation for you and so that your H can stay on track with his job. Not saying he can't trail you, but something to consider. I think it is weird they have not given you the number yet.
I have been approached by three directors involved telling me how desperately they need me to take this role since I am a unique candidate that has a combination of all skillsets they are looking for. .
This is all that matters IMO. This right here shows you should not be at the bottom of the pay range. I'd start by negotiating at 75-100% of the pay range because you apparently deserve it (congrats!!!). Know it.
I have a very unique skill set and thanks to leaning a lot of negotiation skills from MM over the years, I've definitely negotiated above and beyond where I'd be title and salary wise without doing so.
Post by stellarose on Jan 31, 2016 20:49:01 GMT -5
Thank you ladies for validating my current frame of mind.
My current department knows of the opportunity. They are extremely thrilled for me and are fully supportive, but if it should not work out, they actually have a promotion plan in place for me as well. It would be great, but not for my long term career goals. It's certainly not ideal for my husband. He's met with his HR looking into whether they can freeze his employment status, possibly get his masters during the time frame, work remotely (not likely!), or consult. There is a small possibility that an expat position would be available for him too, but without knowing we can't rely on that. If he got that, hot diggity we'd be on the next flight! As long as his HR would freeze his employment then we feel good taking the leap of faith.
So here is my plan for negotiating: Wait to get offer from hiring manager. Then make a counter list and meet with her to review in person. Is that what you would suggest?
Based off what I know now, here is what I am asking for: 1) 20% increase (or more if I learn more about the pay range) 2) 3K for housing allowance (currently 2.5k and it was not enough, I am not the only candidate to complain about this. Housing is very expensive in location) 3) I would also ask that they sign the lease or hold the lease of a place we found which is available now. They typically wouldn't until just before we move, but there was only one building we liked and only one that accepted pets. Openings do not come by very often so it is now or never if we want to bring our pets. 4) I also have a medical accommodation that I need to be back to the US twice a year for tests. This has been confirmed by doctors in both locations, our international health agency. One would tie into my home trip, but the second one would also need to be a paid flight and a day or two for doctor's appts. I need to have an offer in hand before I discuss this with them. Also falling into this, I would add the date that I am available to move after my testing this June. (4 month visa process so it should be fine).
So that is the plan, thoughts? Again, thank you so much! I've never had a successful negotiating experience.
Your list of what you will ask for looks fine, but you need to be prepared to skillfully "argue" why you deserve it. So make sure you have that prepared as well.
Your list of what you will ask for looks fine, but you need to be prepared to skillfully "argue" why you deserve it. So make sure you have that prepared as well.
That's what I'm nervous about....'Skillfully' being able to articulate it. I can say it all great to my husband, but hate talking that way out loud about myself to others at work.
Thank you everyone. Today I am just anticipating thanking her for the offer and asking to review it as I will also be meeting with the mobility team tonight. Then I can craft my counter offer and sit down with her again later this week. Writing it out and practicing is a good idea!
Okay quick update.....the offer I got was for 25% increase! Woohoo! Now I'll put all the details together tonight and work on a counter offer.
Now to decide if I should ask for more or be content with what I got. I may want to ask for more salary knowing the housing budget is slightly low and that will not be an easy thing to change as of now.
I'll post again tonight with all the details. I really appreciate all your guidance and support. SO stressful, but so exciting!
Post by UnderProtest on Feb 1, 2016 16:28:43 GMT -5
Generally being an expat isn't financially rewarding anymore, but it isn't all about money. The experience you get is sometimes worth more than money. That being said, there are a lot more expenses that come with being an expat that you don't realize (new appliances, taxes, groceries, getting a house set up, etc) so go for as much as you can.
I'm glad they came in higher than you anticipated. I would ask for a bit more money, tax help, and possibly more vacation so you can explore the region you'll be in.
I appreciate you asking this! There is a chance my husband will be asked to move abroad so I'm trying to start the research process. Thanks for letting us in on your journey!
What does their International Assignee policy look like? Would you mind listing what it includes?
Are they doing your taxes? Providing tax equalization?
With us they won't negotiate on things that are set by company and/or country wide policy--housing allowance, providing a car, anything that is listed by amount or percentage in the policy book. What they will negotiate on is base salary and anything that isn't mentioned in the policy (which isn't a lot).
Can only imagine the stress but also...so exciting! I haven't read replies yet, so I may repeat some other advice.
For a multi-faceted negotiation like this, the first thing you'd want to do is figure out (1) what you want to negotiate - all the variables that are important and then (2) how important each one is - a stack ranking
Then, for each, determine what you want to ask for, and the business case / rationale for each ask.
My two cents is to go for the salary, because that has a compounding effect across your entire career. I would put that top of list and it sounds like you have a great business case regarding the new information you have now around pay bands and your own performance.
When addressing a negotiation like this, you'll also want to think about the "how you ask" as well, and who.
If you have a list of, say, 10 things you are asking for, don't put all ten on the table at once. You're very unlikely to get everything you want, as a great negotiation is really about expanding the pie for all parties involved.
And, finally practice! How will you have the discussion? What language will you use?
Good luck! Prof Leigh Thompson from Kellogg has some good videos on YouTube that go into depth on negotiation strategies - I like her approach and philosophy - go you for making sure you are earning what you are worth, and not what is offered. Keep us posted.
Thank you Thank you Thank you ladies.....what great advice and more so the support. I just booked a meeting for tomorrow at 2:30 to discuss the review and provide my counter.
To answer your questions for things included, it really is a pretty extensive package already so that is great. I'll have tax equalization, accountant access, medical assistance/review (if I need anything they feel is not appropriate for my host company to handle I will be sent to another location to be seen. Emergency trips home covered.) I'll have a housing allowance, all utilities covered, domestic help allowance, a car/driver, additional transportation allowance, and a gym membership allowance. I get and allowance towards furniture/appliances. I will get one home visit a year where they pay for the air fare, but I take PTO. I get an R&R trip, 5 days PTO and air fare. My host country has about 7 additional holidays a year so that's a bonus! I will get to ship over 2,500 lbs of personal belongings and bring home an additional 2,400lbs (4,900 lbs total return). No cost of living allowance since host country is below US, but I'll get a 20% hardship allowance, an additional amount called Transfer Premium (about 1K a month). I will get a transfer allowance which is a one time payment of half my paycheck to put towards any fees/cancellation costs for moving. My spouse will get Partner Assistance which is a one time allowance for them to spend how they choose....whether for school or a new computer, etc.
I did include my medical accommodation request at the bottom of my counter letter, I hope that is acceptable, but they need to know as that would be a deal breaker should they say it is an unreasonable request.
DH wants me to say yes, but is still unsure about moving himself. I am really hoping he comes around as we get closer. I really truly understand why he feels the way he feels about not wanting to give up his job. We are taking a leap of faith on this part and he agrees if we try it and it is awful that he will move over. We have a strong relationship, have done long distance before and I travel a lot for work as it is right now. I'll keep you posted on everything.
Thank you again for all the support.....it really means a lot since I do not have a good resource to talk through this negotiation and expat stuff!
Thank you Thank you Thank you ladies.....what great advice and more so the support. I just booked a meeting for tomorrow at 2:30 to discuss the review and provide my counter.
To answer your questions for things included, it really is a pretty extensive package already so that is great. I'll have tax equalization, accountant access, medical assistance/review (if I need anything they feel is not appropriate for my host company to handle I will be sent to another location to be seen. Emergency trips home covered.) I'll have a housing allowance, all utilities covered, domestic help allowance, a car/driver, additional transportation allowance, and a gym membership allowance. I get and allowance towards furniture/appliances. I will get one home visit a year where they pay for the air fare, but I take PTO. I get an R&R trip, 5 days PTO and air fare. My host country has about 7 additional holidays a year so that's a bonus! I will get to ship over 2,500 lbs of personal belongings and bring home an additional 2,400lbs (4,900 lbs total return). No cost of living allowance since host country is below US, but I'll get a 20% hardship allowance, an additional amount called Transfer Premium (about 1K a month). I will get a transfer allowance which is a one time payment of half my paycheck to put towards any fees/cancellation costs for moving. My spouse will get Partner Assistance which is a one time allowance for them to spend how they choose....whether for school or a new computer, etc.
I did include my medical accommodation request at the bottom of my counter letter, I hope that is acceptable, but they need to know as that would be a deal breaker should they say it is an unreasonable request.
DH wants me to say yes, but is still unsure about moving himself. I am really hoping he comes around as we get closer. I really truly understand why he feels the way he feels about not wanting to give up his job. We are taking a leap of faith on this part and he agrees if we try it and it is awful that he will move over. We have a strong relationship, have done long distance before and I travel a lot for work as it is right now. I'll keep you posted on everything.
Thank you again for all the support.....it really means a lot since I do not have a good resource to talk through this negotiation and expat stuff!
This sounds very similar to what we are on. We just moved to a hardship location in East Africa. We've done a hardship location before that turned out to be not a hardship at all--although that one was only 10% IIRC, and not enough to get the R&R trips. Now we're at 25% and get three. PM me if you want to talk specifics/logistics.
ETA: Is reverse home leave an option? I know with us if the spouse doesn't move the assignee gets an extra home leave and the spouse gets a reverse home leave to come visit. Plus the R&R trips can be used to go back to your home country, you just don't get the stipend that goes with them. Just some thoughts of things to look into in case he can't make it.
ETAA: And in answer to your original question, speaking from experience with that kind of package you should be able to stow away a good chunk of cash. We were able to save a lot without even trying and while traveling a lot when we were in Malaysia just because not having a housing payment + hardship premium + everything else adds up quickly.