#AdnanSyed - anyone else absolutely glued to hisPCR hearing?

[Deleted]

Really, had I not been traveling all week, I would have been up in Baltimore hovering around the courthouse and hanging out with Rabia.

For those of you that aren't as obsessed:  Adnan Syed, who was convicted in 2000 of murdering his ex-girlfiend, Hae Lee, has been at the center of This American Life's Serial Season 1 - which 60+ MILLION people have downloaded worldwide.  Adnan, to this day, professes his innocence.  If he is truthful, Hae's murderer has never been brought to justice.

So what's going on now?  Adnan's post-conviction relief hearing is happening right now - started this Wednesday - in Baltimore.  This PCR hearing could (COULD) lead to a new trial, based on problems with the original conviction.

OK - now for anyone similarly obsessed...what are you thinking?  Have you been following the hearing?

I am so, so curious to understand the strategy that the State's attorney (Thiru Vignarajah) is pursuing.  From the reporting I've been able to get my hands on, it is focused on discrediting the "star" witness, Asia McClain, and poking holes in the purported Brady violation.

For anyone that listened to "Undisclosed" following Serial...are you enjoying getting to "meet" Rabia and Susan a little more via social media this week?  I feel like Susan is someone who would be an amazing, loyal, thoughtful friend.  I've had a hard time not creepeing on her and trying to see if she would meet for coffee in DC 

Seeing Adnan heading into the courthouse was so shocking - I've continued to imagine him as a skinny 17-year old, and he's a grown ass man now after 15 years in prison.  Rabia's sadness over the loss of his freedom really hit me when I saw that photo.  That said....could it be possible that this hearing could result in a new trial?  I might have to quit my job if that's the case.

Thanks for indulging me - I think my IRL buddies are very, very over discussing this with me. :-#

[Deleted]

Justin has been kicking ASS at keeping us all up to date! Very impressed.

@mrsbecky - have you fully grasped the #uselessSteve storyline yet? I'm catching up on day 2 & 3 right now...it seems that the state thought Steve would be pretty powerful, but now isn't bringing him to the stand (yet)?

The FBI guy...is he a "better" expert than Wronowitz & the defense's expert?

One thing I can say is that Asia seems AMAZING. Cannot believe she had handwritten notes from her conversation with Kevin Urick (what was that - 5 years ago or so before his first PCR hearing?) - Type A for the win on this one. I agree that the Brady violation may not be as strong as ineffective assistance.

[womet]

There is a great reddit feed that has been a great source of info. Useless Steve is the security guard for Woodlawn Library that folks thought would be testifying. And then the librarian said he was useless. Students called him 2.5 since cops are 5-0.

I had it open today while I was programming.

[Deleted]

womet I am going to look for that! I just came across the 2.5 reference - that made me LOL! I need to put him in context....going to Reddit (which I am still a noob at.)

I am watching this now:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3y4PFUV3yA&feature=youtu.be

This gentleman is the attorney for Freddie Grays family - and used to be Gutierrez's boss. Fascinating.

[Deleted]

@mrsbecky - got it! Am diving in to that piece of the hearing now....

For you, how are you so certain he is guilty? I am one of the "kept going back and forth" people just like Koenig when I first listened to Serial. That said, after I listened to the Undisclosed podcast I became less certain he was appropriately convicted. (Recognizing that Rabia was key to that podcast, so it was of course Adnan biased.)

[tacokick]

I'm really kicking myself for not sucking it up and attending the hearings! I think he is guilty too and I also think Asia is mistaken about the dates, her snow story doesn't match up with the actual weather that nightS

[womet]

Here is the link: start at the bottom. www.reddit.com/live/wd0dbuu080k5/

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2016 19:58:11 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I'm really kicking myself for not sucking it up and attending the hearings! I think he is guilty too and I also think Asia is mistaken about the dates, her snow story doesn't match up with the actual weather that nightS

Me too.  I have a flight on Monday otherwise I'd be there for Day 4.  Seriously this is the O.J. trial with social media...and this is "only" a PCR hearing!

But even if Asia is mistaken about the dates...isn't it true that all Justin Brown has to prove now is that Gutierrez was ineffective because she didn't even contact / pursue an alibi witness (OR he has to prove Brady with the cell phone evidence)?  From my understanding, either of those *should* lead to a new trial, where both State & defense could intro new evidence.

Could you imagine if there was a new trial!?  We'd have to go.  HAVE to.

[Deleted]

womet thank you, I am still not so great at finding things on "the reddit"

[womet]

@shoegal, no problem. Someone posted it on Wednesday on ML. I am also a Reddit newbie.

[tacokick]

Feb 5, 2016 20:02:36 GMT -5 @shoegal said:

Feb 5, 2016 19:58:11 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I'm really kicking myself for not sucking it up and attending the hearings! I think he is guilty too and I also think Asia is mistaken about the dates, her snow story doesn't match up with the actual weather that nightS

Me too.  I have a flight on Monday otherwise I'd be there for Day 4.  Seriously this is the O.J. trial with social media...and this is "only" a PCR hearing!

But even if Asia is mistaken about the dates...isn't it true that all Justin Brown has to prove now is that Gutierrez was ineffective because she didn't even contact / pursue an alibi witness (OR he has to prove Brady with the cell phone evidence)?  From my understanding, either of those *should* lead to a new trial, where both State & defense could intro new evidence.

Could you imagine if there was a new trial!?  We'd have to go.  HAVE to.

I think it might end up being enough to lead to a new trial. You are right that it doesn't matter if she is accurate or not just that Gutierrez should have contacted her for the first trial.

If it goes to trial, I will have to go! I'm trying to see if I can clear my schedule to go Monday.

[Deleted]

tacokick I hope you can go!!!! If you do please take notes & share back. I keep hearing that Thiru is like an evil movie baddie - admittedly, I'm biased against him because of this: www.wmal.com/2015/12/01/maryland-deputy-attorney-general-flirts-gives-confidential-info-admits-inability-in-undercover-video/

[tacokick]

Feb 5, 2016 20:27:02 GMT -5 @shoegal said:

tacokick I hope you can go!!!! If you do please take notes & share back. I keep hearing that Thiru is like an evil movie baddie - admittedly, I'm biased against him because of this: www.wmal.com/2015/12/01/maryland-deputy-attorney-general-flirts-gives-confidential-info-admits-inability-in-undercover-video/

Yes!! That's why I thought it might be a good day to go.

[tacokick]

Feb 5, 2016 20:27:39 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

Feb 5, 2016 20:10:16 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I think it might end up being enough to lead to a new trial. You are right that it doesn't matter if she is accurate or not just that Gutierrez should have contacted her for the first trial.

If it goes to trial, I will have to go! I'm trying to see if I can clear my schedule to go Monday.

I have off Monday. Oh man. Lol.

!! It is supposed to be an action packed day.

[heyjude]

Feb 5, 2016 20:27:12 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

Also I am tagging in heyjude.

She's been arguing Bernie today, now some serial!

Oh man lol!!!!

[Deleted]

@mrsbecky, thank you for the reply - the fact that he doesn't remember the 13th of January has always bugged me big time, too. I mean - the first thing I would do if cops called me asking about my ex-BF is to start taking notes and re-tracing steps from the last time I saw them. And I'd start with THAT DAY.

I'm also with you, though, that the process really matters. The thing that bothers me now is the evidence about Hae's body that has started to come out - that how the lividity (sp?) was set means she likely couldn't have been buried at the time the state suggested.

One other disturbing observation I have heard from the Undisclosed podcast is below, too. (putting some space so people can skip - it relates to Hae.)







The state professed that Hae was killed and buried on 13 Jan. Her body was found a month later, and the grave was very, very shallow (and was exposed to the air in a few places). Yet - there was no indication of any animal disturbance, which the medical examiner found very odd. Think about how quickly vultures and other scavengers take action.
(OF course, thinking about that is incredibly disturbing, and also makes my heart hurt for Hae to think of such a bright young woman with such a short life. Just awful.)

[womet]

If you go and can't actually get into the courtroom, Rabia has been hanging out at the Dunkin Donuts nearby.

[compassrose]

I'm still undecided on guilt or innocence, but after Undisclosed, I'm convinced his trial was crap and CG fell short. So I hope he gets a new trial.

[tacokick]

Feb 5, 2016 20:49:41 GMT -5 @shoegal said:

@mrsbecky, thank you for the reply - the fact that he doesn't remember the 13th of January has always bugged me big time, too. I mean - the first thing I would do if cops called me asking about my ex-BF is to start taking notes and re-tracing steps from the last time I saw them. And I'd start with THAT DAY.

I'm also with you, though, that the process really matters. The thing that bothers me now is the evidence about Hae's body that has started to come out - that how the lividity (sp?) was set means she likely couldn't have been buried at the time the state suggested.

One other disturbing observation I have heard from the Undisclosed podcast is below, too. (putting some space so people can skip - it relates to Hae.)







The state professed that Hae was killed and buried on 13 Jan. Her body was found a month later, and the grave was very, very shallow (and was exposed to the air in a few places). Yet - there was no indication of any animal disturbance, which the medical examiner found very odd. Think about how quickly vultures and other scavengers take action.
(OF course, thinking about that is incredibly disturbing, and also makes my heart hurt for Hae to think of such a bright young woman with such a short life. Just awful.)

I wonder if she could have been somewhere very cold (like the truck of a car?) for a long time before burial. It was a cold winter and would explain why they were so vague about the timeline.

And it drives me nuts that Adnan says he doesn't remember where he was. I remember when her body was found (and the snow storm I think Asia is misremembering) and I didn't even know her. Surely if the police called me the day after my girlfriend went missing it would stick in my head.

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2016 21:38:38 GMT -5 compassrose said:

I'm still undecided on guilt or innocence, but after Undisclosed, I'm convinced his trial was crap and CG fell short. So I hope he gets a new trial.

Well said. From step 1, the bail hearing, where the State's argument was, "Adnan is muslim, and all Pakistani muslims are killing women and running back to safety in Pakistan," - never mind the fact that he's an American citizen and OH YEAH the "trend" they speak of is complete BS - this trial has been one misstep after another.

Interestingly enough, the stories on incarcerated individuals listening to Serial have mentioned that many of them see all these missteps as very common. As in, if the average American knew how ineffective the system could be....it's pretty shocking. medium.com/@kendrahovey/the-one-perspective-on-serial-you-haven-t-heard-162138d10fce

Sidenote: I would really, really, really love to have someone get Kevin Urick on the stand now, because it's pretty clear to me that he absolutely lied about Asia at Adnan's last PCR hearing.

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2016 6:35:38 GMT -5 Stan said:

Doesn't really matter, but listening to Susan on the Undisclosed updates is killing me. She's giggly and just making me crazy.

She was insanely energized on Rabia's "end of day 3" Periscope video.  I get the sense that her adrenaline is running at a zillion miles an hour.  I wish we were seeing more of Colin at the trial, but I guess he has to teach the future lawyers of America or something, which keeps him at home.  He and Susan balance each other well.

[Deleted]

Here it is! "Susan on no sleep and cell phone high."

Yup, that's about it!
www.periscope.tv/w/aYU2ITk0MjY5MzN8MUJSSmpkQlFaVmRLd1_zNXvg9_VnQdnfMJZ9_7biTLUTlruBfgUtUCJBVzz7

[womet]

I just listed to the Undisclosed mini podcast for Day 3. They had Adnan's mom speak for a minute. Hearing the joy and excitement in her voice on how well the hearing is going made me tear up.

[gt7301b]

Feb 5, 2016 21:38:38 GMT -5 compassrose said:

I'm still undecided on guilt or innocence, but after Undisclosed, I'm convinced his trial was crap and CG fell short. So I hope he gets a new trial.

This is where I am.  I admittedly am totally using my arm chair law degree, but there as a lot of shady stuff going on in this case.

[Deleted]

@mrsbecky, I would love a Kevin Urick / Baltimore detective podcast....how fascinating to hear more directly from them. The thing that Kevin is so, so firm on in his Intercept interview is how clear-cut the case was. I mean, sure, he has to say that as the prosecutor...but it's like he has NO doubt at all. I wonder if there is evidence he saw in the process that wasn't admissible but would clear this all up for us. TOTAL speculation.

[kadams767]

Feb 6, 2016 11:27:09 GMT -5 @shoegal said:

@mrsbecky , I would love a Kevin Urick / Baltimore detective podcast....how fascinating to hear more directly from them. The thing that Kevin is so, so firm on in his Intercept interview is how clear-cut the case was. I mean, sure, he has to say that as the prosecutor...but it's like he has NO doubt at all. I wonder if there is evidence he saw in the process that wasn't admissible but would clear this all up for us. TOTAL speculation.

I kind of think this is the case.  I am personally still undecided on guilt/innocence, but I am kind of leaning towards the police having somehow obtained way more evidence than was admissible at trial.  So they knew for sure he was guilty, but had to manipulate the case around the evidence and witnesses they could use.  Tinfoil hat, party of one over here, though.

[yentl]

I've been listening to the Serial updates. I agree with @mrsbecky ... I think he's guilty. I'm not 100% convinced, but I just don't think you can get around the Jay confession and him knowing where the car was. The only reason Jay would have for making all of that up is if he killed Hae, but he has no motive for killing her.

Having said that, I do think the trial and inconsistencies were not handled well, so I'm not against him getting a new trial.