Am I breaking my baby? Extinction CIO

[water*drop]

I'm just here to say that I have been there. Numerous times lately. Hugs, and I hope you get some sleep soon.

[smock]

I really doubt he was crying the whole time! And even if he was, you definitely didn't break him. I hope he starts sleeping more soon.

[CrazyLucky]

I think I was still feeding DS once a night at six months and we did CIO at eight months. But that was five years ago, so I'm not positive. It took about 10 days of crying. The first night was not the worst for us. The first night was bad, the second and third were worse, and then it started getting better. It's hard, emotionally, I know. But it is SO much better. I remember people at work being like, "Oh, he only wakes up once a night? That's not bad." No, it's not bad, but it doesn't compete with getting 6-7 hours of uninterrupted sleep. And when you're doing that every night for months on end, you start to lose your filter!

[oswin]

He probably wasn't crying all night. *hugs* Lack of sleep is so rough. I've definitely been there where I just couldn't muster the energy to get up for a few minutes, by which time I'd either fallen back asleep or the baby had stopped crying.

[soozy87]

You are not going to break him. It was hard for us with DS1's crappy sleep. But I think we did it for 3-4 days and he was STTN. It was amazing. Now we are working on getting the second one (looks like he is about a month younger than yours) to sleep. It has been a week and not much improvement. Once they get it though, it will be so much better. So much. At least that is what I tell myself as he cries, and cries, and cries.

[starburst]

I'm sorry; it's so hard! He probably wasn't crying the entire time. The first night was the worst for us. I just sat on the couch and ate cookie after cookie. By night three it was so much better.

[Gato]

You definitely won't break your baby! I think all attachment parenting claims about this are a load of hooey. Why? Because DD2 was constantly crying at night. Constantly. For no medical reason. I reached the end of my rope and just started letting her cry for longer and longer periods of time. It just seemed like something she needed to do. Meanwhile, H and I needed the sanity that comes from getting a few hours of unbroken sleep each night.

Fast forward to her as a 2 and now 3 year old; many people tell me how "secure" and "attached" she seems. And she really is an awesome kid. Still super demanding, and I'm still pushing right back if she asks too much of me. Just my philosophy, but you have your limits and it's really not bad for your kid to learn them.

[miamigirl]

Hugs! I'm sure he wasn't crying the whole time. I hope you get a good night's sleep soon.

[namasteak]

I would alternate which nights you are "on" with your husband so somebody is getting rest. Whoevers night it is has to stay up the whole time baby is crying so you can see if he is one of the babys that CIO doesn't work for.

[hermione]

Feb 17, 2016 15:03:52 GMT -5 farmvillelover said:

Feb 17, 2016 15:01:07 GMT -5 smock said:

I really doubt he was crying the whole time! And even if he was, you definitely didn't break him. I hope he starts sleeping more soon.

I don't know what it is. He's not hungry, I refuse to believe that. Unless he has tapeworm. Bc he ate 42 ounces of formula yesterday and is not sick.

I have no advice on the CIO, I just wanted to let you know that C always ate a lot. The pedi was like, "Oh, you know anything more than 32oz would be considered way above average." I was like, "so the 50oz she drank yesterday is too much?"

She topped out at 6-7 months and gradually got down to 28-32oz after starting solids. I'm positive we weren't over feeding her, consoling with food, or anything else. She was just...hungrier? The pedi agreed and said to KOKO.

All that to say, could he still need a motn bottle?

[AmyRI]

Have you tried Ferber's CIO method with check-ins? I realize that it doesn't work for every baby, but you seem upset at the thought of intentionally doing extinction CIO.

Also, I think it's time to make your DH man up and take some nighttime duties.

[bdubs419]

I am sorry. I went through a lot of the same thing. Extinction CIO did NOT work in DS2. We tried numerous times and he just wouldn't give in. I don't know if it was hunger or just the inability to put himself back to sleep or what. He eventually grew out of it by about 11 months. All of a sudden one night he woke up, cried, and then he FELL BACK ASLEEP. Finally... it was the longest 11 months of my life.

Also, for us because I couldn't tell if it was hunger or him not being able to put himself back down, it was easier for us to just feed him. He honestly got back down much quicker if we fed him. It also got us back to sleep faster too.

[bdubs419]

Also, just to note, both my kids went through phases where they completely blew through the recommended formula amount per day. I really do think every kid is different.

[winecheery]

Feb 17, 2016 15:30:26 GMT -5 AmyRI said:

Have you tried Ferber's CIO method with check-ins? I realize that it doesn't work for every baby, but you seem upset at the thought of intentionally doing extinction CIO.

Also, I think it's time to make your DH man up and take some nighttime duties.

This. Especially the bolded.

Also, I'm sorry you are struggling with this farmvillelover I know your first slept like a dream, so this is probably a huge shock to your "normal."

Fwiw, we did Ferber on the earlier side with DD just to help her put herself down, as she would wake, and then just want to hang for hours or kind of comfort nurse and I was like, uhhmmmm newp.  She still genuinely nursed once MOTN from the time we Ferbered, (4.5 months) to 6 months when she dropped that completely on her own.  I do believe solids helped her, and a month later we switched to formula.  That was because my nursing limit/goal was 6 months, not because of anything else.

DD was always well-fed during the day; she nursed/snacked like every two hours the entire time I breastfed, so I know she was plenty full. I believe she still needed that one MOTN session at her age, and I could live with that since I could feed her, cuddles her a minute, then place her in the crib where she'd get herself back to sleep.  It took all of 15 mins.  For us, the sleep training assured us she was waking to eat at that one session, and not for habit or comfort.  You could just tell it was different.

But going back to the bolded...it is time for your H to step in and assist, whatever your plans are going forward.  You have a job too.  You are tired too.  HE IS A PARENT TOO. ::hugs::

[Deleted]

You didn't break him. 5 months old is fine to do extinction CIO. I DOUBT he cried for 3 hours or you would have woken.

So many hugs

[dizzydee]

Why do you think he's not hungry? Have you tried feeding him? Does he go back to sleep after? 5 months is still so young, and CIO doesn't work for everyone. Maybe he is truly hungry, and if he his there's nothing wrong with it. Wouldn't it be better to get up for 15-20, feed him, and go back to sleep? I know the lack of sleep sucks, we've all been there, but obviously this isn't working for him or you. Maybe it's time to try something else? Maybe consider a night nurse if you cant/don't want to do night feedings.

My son ate at least once in the middle of the night till he was 8mths. He was hungry, he would eat, then go back to sleep. Once I noticed he was no longer hungry, that's when I did CIO, and it worked like a dream.

[turtlegirl]

I'm sorry you guys are having such a rough go around with sleep and crying with #2. It's so hard!

How is he going down at night? Are you able to put him in the crib awake and then he puts himself to sleep? I know that sometimes you mention rocking him to sleep. Maybe doing CIO or Ferber to get him to at least put himself to sleep at the beginning of the night would help with the night wakings?

[t]

Big hugs. It's the worst.
When DD2 was about 3 weeks old we forgot to turn on the monitor. She was waking at 3:00 on the dot at that point. I fed her at 10pm and my boobs woke me up at 6. She was screaming so hard that she was gasping. DH and I were so upset. I didn't want to believe that she woke at 3:00 and basically screamed her little head off for three hours. But I'm pretty sure she did.
At 8 months, we've gone up to an hour of crying with no checks. The other night I took her downstairs at 1:00 to play. She cried then too. Finally I gave up and fed her.
Just hugs. It sucks. I'm waiting for it to end too.

[pinotgrig]

Does he go back to sleep if you feed him? If so, I'd do that. It sucks to be up and down multiple times, but if it ultimately gets you back to sleep sooner then you're still winning.

I think a few nights with a night nurse would do wonders for you. I'm sure it's pricey, but your sanity is worth something. Maybe 2 or 3 nights a week for a week or two so that you have some nights "off" to look forward to.

I'm sorry it's hard right now.

[nabum]

I'm sorry, you didn't break him.

t know a gal that may work as a night nanny if you want to go that direction. text me. It seems like this is the best option because it doesn't sound like your heart is in it to sleep train at this point.

[humpforfree]

Feb 17, 2016 17:03:14 GMT -5 Jennyanydots said:

Feb 17, 2016 16:52:02 GMT -5 farmvillelover said:

I haven't tried this.  Maybe in a few days I will.  I wonder if that would help.

Working on self-soothing for initial bedtime through a planned Ferber or extinction CIO would be my very first thing to try. Once babies learn to put themselves to sleep at the beginning of the night, their MOTN wake ups often improve. It's a skill they need to learn, and it's way easier to teach it at the beginning of the night than in the middle when your defenses are much lower. Good luck!

Sooooooooo much this for us. E had to cry 1.5 hours the first night, and THAT NIGHT after she figured out how to put herself to sleep the very first time, she woke up twice (and went back to sleep after the first one, fed the second), compared to her previous up 5-7+ times a night. It's been smooth sailing since she figured out how to put herself to sleep at the beginning of the night.

[SJ]

I don't consider DD to have been a particularly "good" or "bad" sleeper. She was no unicorn, but we also never had to do hard core training.

However, at that age I was very happy to feed her (only) twice a night. I would have fed her at 10 and 3 and expected her to go back to sleep quickly after each wake up.

She dropped her last MOTN feeding at 9 months.

If you offer the bottle at 3am does he refuse? Or are you intentionally trying to feed him only once per night?

Sending lots of hugs to you!

[dcn]

I don't think you broke him. Hugs, being so sleep deprived is really awful. With ds1 it got a little easier to manage once I changed my expectations. If I knew he'd be up 2 or 3 times it wasn't so awful. It was easier to just feed him and then we would both go back to sleep quickly. It took a good 6-7 months to get there though, and lots of tears of frustration.

[namasteak]

Feb 17, 2016 16:44:01 GMT -5 farmvillelover said:

Feb 17, 2016 15:18:55 GMT -5 namasteak said:

I would alternate which nights you are "on" with your husband so somebody is getting rest. Whoevers night it is has to stay up the whole time baby is crying so you can see if he is one of the babys that CIO doesn't work for.

Alternating just won't work.  H has been either traveling or driving 4-5 hours each way to client sites in the early morning.  I just can't risk him dirving that far on no sleep kwim

I do, DH has a 90min each way commute and that makes me nervous when he gets little sleep. I would look into a night nanny/doula for a few nights. It will be a couple hundred dollars but worth it

[awkwardpenguin]

I love you farmvillelover, and I can tell you are really truly exhausted and feel trapped. I think you need a plan to get some more sleep, but I also am not sure he is ready to stop eating overnight. I think you need both to adjust your expectations of what normal is, and also to make a plan about getting more sleep.

In terms of what is normal for night feeding at what age, the two main sleep experts actually disagree. I think Weissbluth is a little more reasonable on this, and says babies wake 1-2x a night to feed through 9 months. Ferber says most babies are ready to drop night feedings by 4-5 months, but that doesn't seem to match the experiences of a lot of moms on here. My DD was feeding about 4x a night at 4 months, 2x a night at 6 months, and only recently dropped to 1x a night at 8 months. So really, honestly, I think you probably need to accept that he is feeding a normal amount and is likely to continue to feed overnight for several more months.

I also think it's worth remembering that most people who sleep train at a younger age are usually just doing for bedtime, not for overnight wakeups. We did do Ferber to help with excessive night waking, but we went from 6-8 wakeups a night to two, so we ended where you are beginning.

That said, I do think there are things you can do to get more sleep. What time does your H usually go to bed? Can you go to bed right after the kids go to bed and he can take the 10:30 p.m. feeding? Then you can get a good chunk of sleep and take the 3ish feeding. Another thing that has saved my sanity is we take turns sleeping in on the weekend.

If you have the funds for it, I think a few nights of a night nanny would really help you get some sleep and feel restored. It is weird to invite someone from outside into your house when you are home, but I think it'd really be worth it!

[cheeseandcrackers]

I doubt he was crying all that time because you would have heard it.
Hugs. Sorry you are having a rough time.

[sparkythelawyer]

It sucks so much to have a unicorn sleeper the first go round, but not the second. I'm sorry. And I absolutely understand why sleep deprivation is a form of torture. I hope things get better for you soon.

[awkwardpenguin]

Feb 17, 2016 18:01:33 GMT -5 farmvillelover said:

Feb 17, 2016 17:56:31 GMT -5 awkwardpenguin said:

I also think it's worth remembering that most people who sleep train at a younger age are usually just doing for bedtime, not for overnight wakeups. We did do Ferber to help with excessive night waking, but we went from 6-8 wakeups a night to two, so we ended where you are beginning.

That said, I do think there are things you can do to get more sleep. What time does your H usually go to bed? Can you go to bed right after the kids go to bed and he can take the 10:30 p.m. feeding? Then you can get a good chunk of sleep and take the 3ish feeding. Another thing that has saved my sanity is we take turns sleeping in on the weekend.

If you have the funds for it, I think a few nights of a night nanny would really help you get some sleep and feel restored. It is weird to invite someone from outside into your house when you are home, but I think it'd really be worth it!

This is a good point. I must have some fucked up expectations I guess.  
My H has been working a lot at night on calls with Asia, but I go to bed generally when Noah does, around 9pm.

I have 2 calls in to night nannies I got recs for, I wonder if they will pan out.

Hugs!  I don't think wanting to get a night of sleep is a fucked up expectation at all!  Your little one just has a different plan.  All babies are different, it's normal, blah blah, but it doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

Remember the first year is all about survival.  Cut yourself slack wherever you can, get relief where you can get it, and be kind to yourself.  I was doing two wakeups a night until pretty recently and it was killing me.

[Deleted]

Just giving you hope. My son is a beast, 21 lbs at 6.5 months and seems to always be eating. He was waking 2-3 times a night to eat until the last week or so and now he's down to 1 night feed. There is a growth spurt around 6 months and now that he is over that he is eating less and sleeping better at night. I do think it is common for babies to vary between 0-2 night feedings at this age depending on the baby and the night. If they are in a growth spurt they might eat much more than normal.

I would start with getting him to put himself to sleep at the beginning of the night and once that is figured out the night wakings might actually reduce on their own.

ETA: My older DD stopped night feeds on her own at 3 months, so it really depends on the baby.

[turtlegirl]

Feb 17, 2016 17:58:00 GMT -5 farmvillelover said:

Feb 17, 2016 17:15:14 GMT -5 humpforfree said:

Sooooooooo much this for us. E had to cry 1.5 hours the first night, and THAT NIGHT after she figured out how to put herself to sleep the very first time, she woke up twice (and went back to sleep after the first one, fed the second), compared to her previous up 5-7+ times a night. It's been smooth sailing since she figured out how to put herself to sleep at the beginning of the night.

You've pumped me up to try this, maybe not tonight bc I'm still traumatized from the crying last night, but maybe tomorrow.  Thanks Humps!

I definitely think this is a good place to start. That was what our sleep training plan was. She had to CIO at the beginning of the night until she went to sleep (it was less than 30 mins the first night, I think) and then if she woke up MOTN I gave her about 5-10 mins to see if she would go back to sleep and if she didn't then I fed her. She settled onto one night feeding pretty quickly and within a few weeks dropped that one on her own.

She's had a cold on/off the past few weeks thanks to older brothers school germs and we've had a few night wakings or early morning wake ups, but generally she's been much better.