Switzerland

[rupertpenny]

So, I've been know to say (on this board even) that I would never move to Switzerland because it is too boring.

But I think I'm changing my mind. I don't want to do it anytime soon, but it is moving to the top of my "next potential destination" list. I figure at some point I will be ready for boring, and it isn't early like I'm in lcol here in Hong Kong so prices shouldn't be a huge shock. I'm not super outdoorsy, but I think I could learn to be if I lived somewhere with decent weather. And after Hong Kong I think I will really crave green space and fresh air.

Anyway, there are good job prospects for me and my H in Geneva. I should have a European citizenship soon, although I'm not sure how much that matter as I would probably only apply to international job postings. My H basically only has expats for clients so any expat heavy destination is good for him.

Again, this would probably be 3-4 years down the line but I am starting to thing seriously about it. Like, I might switch my daughter to a French pre school just in case. I'm hoping to pick up some French with her, but I've already studied German and speak some basic Italian.

So anybody love it or hate it? I really would love to live in Europe and this looks like our best bet besides maybe London.

Cicero Cioccolato

[Cioccolato]

Switzerland...

It has advantages and disadvantages.

It's clean and beautiful. It's very expensive. The Swiss aren't the nicest/warmest people. The food is repetative. Geneva's a good option though, there's more international people, lots of ethnic restaurants and things to do. It's not terribly cold in the winter and the summers are nice. It's VERY expensive though.

It's really not that bad but it is a little boring.

[rupertpenny]

I already pay $3k for a 600 sq ft apartment and $10 for a block of cheddar. How much worse can it get?

[Cicero]

We'll very most likely be headed back there around the same time. I agree about it being expensive and boring. We were on a local contract there and I do have to say that salaries do tend to be higher to pay for the higher cost of living. That said, we still did our grocery shopping in France.

[Cicero]

Mar 16, 2016 8:20:06 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

I already pay $3k for a 600 sq ft apartment and $10 for a block of cheddar. How much worse can it get?

We paid 2000 CHF for a 100 sq m 2 bedroom inside the city of Geneva. It was the last street of the city but in the city we were. The rental market has supposedly softened since then.

[rupertpenny]

Mar 16, 2016 8:42:21 GMT -5 Cicero said:

Mar 16, 2016 8:20:06 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

I already pay $3k for a 600 sq ft apartment and $10 for a block of cheddar. How much worse can it get?

We paid 2000 CHF for a 100 sq m 2 bedroom inside the city of Geneva. It was the last street of the city but in the city we were. The rental market has supposedly softened since then.

Omg that would be a palace compared to what we have now!

[rupertpenny]

Do you have to have a car in Geneva? I really hate driving.

[Cicero]

You don't need one in the city. We had one but it was a manual. I can't drive a manual and stuck to the buses and trams and never had an issue. We basically just used the car on the weekends to get up to the mountains or into France past the end of the tram line.

[Cicero]

I will say that I think it will be a lot more interesting of a place to live with school aged kids than it was as a young childless couple. Outdoor activities are a lot of the entertainment options. Picnics, walking around the lake, going to the "beach", climbing the mountain just outside of town, in summer drinking at an outdoor bar that opens in what is essentially a public park along the lakefront, in winter a fondue restaurant opens at the same place.

[Cioccolato]

Mar 16, 2016 8:55:49 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

Do you have to have a car in Geneva? I really hate driving.

no. just for shopping in france.

[Cioccolato]

we live in neuchatel. i do not recommend living here. lol.

[MauMau]

I lived in Zurich. I didn't find it boring. haha! Just think of all the trips you can take if your base is Geneva. I would move back if I had a job offer but I don't work in an industy that will take me there again sadly. I enjoyed spending time around the lake and entertainment things. I loved doing day trips in different Swiss cities and visiting the mountains. I didn't eat out much because I was saving money. But I loved the Swiss produce in the markets.

I imagine your job hunting prospects will be much more advantageous when you have your EU country citizenship in place first. They've really started tightening up work visa with caps on how many they will give out. I only pay partial attention to this but it is a thing.

[betsyray]

I lived in both Geneva and Lausanne in high school. I enjoyed it! I couldn't drive but was able to get around very easily via bus/train/tram even when living north of Geneva towards the French border. My mom grocery shopped in France frequently because it was cheaper. We did a lot of skiing and outdoor activities. Good base to travel from.

[rupertpenny]

Mar 17, 2016 20:55:37 GMT -5 MauMau said:

I lived in Zurich. I didn't find it boring. haha! Just think of all the trips you can take if your base is Geneva. I would move back if I had a job offer but I don't work in an industy that will take me there again sadly. I enjoyed spending time around the lake and entertainment things. I loved doing day trips in different Swiss cities and visiting the mountains. I didn't eat out much because I was saving money. But I loved the Swiss produce in the markets.

I imagine your job hunting prospects will be much more advantageous when you have your EU country citizenship in place first. They've really started tightening up work visa with caps on how many they will give out. I only pay partial attention to this but it is a thing.

I actually won't have EU citizenship, it will be Icelandic, but I'm assuming/hoping that's as good as. Iceland has pretty much the same status as Switzerland in Europe as far as free movement so hopefully it won't be an issue. 

The markets are something I'm dreaming about. I would kill for an awesome farmer's market. We obviously have vegetable markets and such here, but 99% of the stuff comes from China doesn't exactly give me the same warm fuzzy farmer's market feeling haha. 

[MauMau]

Mar 18, 2016 0:02:57 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

Mar 17, 2016 20:55:37 GMT -5 MauMau said:

I lived in Zurich. I didn't find it boring. haha! Just think of all the trips you can take if your base is Geneva. I would move back if I had a job offer but I don't work in an industy that will take me there again sadly. I enjoyed spending time around the lake and entertainment things. I loved doing day trips in different Swiss cities and visiting the mountains. I didn't eat out much because I was saving money. But I loved the Swiss produce in the markets.

I imagine your job hunting prospects will be much more advantageous when you have your EU country citizenship in place first. They've really started tightening up work visa with caps on how many they will give out. I only pay partial attention to this but it is a thing.

I actually won't have EU citizenship, it will be Icelandic, but I'm assuming/hoping that's as good as. Iceland has pretty much the same status as Switzerland in Europe as far as free movement so hopefully it won't be an issue. 

The markets are something I'm dreaming about. I would kill for an awesome farmer's market. We obviously have vegetable markets and such here, but 99% of the stuff comes from China doesn't exactly give me the same warm fuzzy farmer's market feeling haha. 

Ah. Have no idea but would have to be better than nothing at all. Especially if you are marketable in the industry and area you are looking in.

You would love the markets. And while not the same style of street food as Hong Kong. I love Swiss Fair food/street food. Haha. Honestly, that was was another really fun thing about Switzerland. All the random festivals. Next month Zürich takes a giant snowman stuffed with explosives and times how long it takes to blow up. Genius! And after you can go up to the flames and roast sausages. Lol

[mabillon]

I lived in Geneva in my late elementary/early middle school years and absolutely loved it. Technically, we lived in one of the outer-lying municipalities but with quick and easy access to public transport, it felt quite central. When we returned to the States, I found myself chafing under the new-to-me restrictions. Thanks to public transport and a relatively safe city, I had a LOT of freedom as a kid to bum around town. I remember being at Fete de Geneve at 9.30pm with my friends at, like, age 12 WITH NO PARENTS. We skiied and hiked and traveled a LOT. Most of my Swiss family had moved to the US at that point but there was a lot of "exploring our roots" which was boring then but I'm grateful for now - there's a tremendous amount of history, for sure!

If I didn't have to worry about the cost of childcare (kids in elementary or older), I'd go there in a heartbeat.

[rupertpenny]

Mar 18, 2016 0:34:11 GMT -5 mabillon said:

I lived in Geneva in my late elementary/early middle school years and absolutely loved it. Technically, we lived in one of the outer-lying municipalities but with quick and easy access to public transport, it felt quite central. When we returned to the States, I found myself chafing under the new-to-me restrictions. Thanks to public transport and a relatively safe city, I had a LOT of freedom as a kid to bum around town. I remember being at Fete de Geneve at 9.30pm with my friends at, like, age 12 WITH NO PARENTS. We skiied and hiked and traveled a LOT. Most of my Swiss family had moved to the US at that point but there was a lot of "exploring our roots" which was boring then but I'm grateful for now - there's a tremendous amount of history, for sure!

If I didn't have to worry about the cost of childcare (kids in elementary or older), I'd go there in a heartbeat.

By kids in elementary or older do you mean you worry about it when they are that age or when they are younger? B would probably be in K by the time this hypothetically happened and the jobs I'm looking at usually provide education assistance. That's also why I might push for her to learn French though, so she could go to public school. I have no idea what it costs for younger kids. Do they do creche or anything there? 

As for the freedom aspect, I would LOVE for my kid(s) to have that. It seems like it would be possible in Hong Kong given the availability of public transportation and the high degree of safety, but most kids spend all their time being shuttled by their nannies to a million tutoring sessions  (wilted)

[Cicero]

The canton of Geneva has a really high percentage of foreigners living in it. As a result, assistance to kids who are not native French speakers in he cantonal schools is supposed to be really good.

I think Kindergarten would be a great time to move. Before that you might have issues with childcare--it is scarce. There aren't enough daycare or nursery school spots for most of the kids and there isn't much of a desire to change it since there seems to be a pervasive belief that children should be home with their mothers anyway. Kids do go home for lunch once they are in school, but that seems to be easier for a working parent to cover than having to bring in an au pair for the little ones.

LIke I said, that is right about when we'd be moving back and should we be put on a local contract there (which is likely because that is what we were on before) we have every intention of starting M in the cantonal schools.

ETA: We're putting M into the French school here so that he is exposed to the language first. I'm not sure if the one in HK is the same but the one here (and the one in KL was as well) teaches half in French and half in English.

[mabillon]

Mar 18, 2016 1:15:30 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

Mar 18, 2016 0:34:11 GMT -5 mabillon said:

I lived in Geneva in my late elementary/early middle school years and absolutely loved it. Technically, we lived in one of the outer-lying municipalities but with quick and easy access to public transport, it felt quite central. When we returned to the States, I found myself chafing under the new-to-me restrictions. Thanks to public transport and a relatively safe city, I had a LOT of freedom as a kid to bum around town. I remember being at Fete de Geneve at 9.30pm with my friends at, like, age 12 WITH NO PARENTS. We skiied and hiked and traveled a LOT. Most of my Swiss family had moved to the US at that point but there was a lot of "exploring our roots" which was boring then but I'm grateful for now - there's a tremendous amount of history, for sure!

If I didn't have to worry about the cost of childcare (kids in elementary or older), I'd go there in a heartbeat.

By kids in elementary or older do you mean you worry about it when they are that age or when they are younger? B would probably be in K by the time this hypothetically happened and the jobs I'm looking at usually provide education assistance. That's also why I might push for her to learn French though, so she could go to public school. I have no idea what it costs for younger kids. Do they do creche or anything there? 

As for the freedom aspect, I would LOVE for my kid(s) to have that. It seems like it would be possible in Hong Kong given the availability of public transportation and the high degree of safety, but most kids spend all their time being shuttled by their nannies to a million tutoring sessions  (wilted)

Oh, sorry I wasn't clear!  I meant I'd worry about childcare (and the cost of it) for children YOUNGER than schoolage.  I don't know all the details though and since it's not a likely destination for us, I haven't looked into it.  I'd heard offhand similar to what Cicero just posted.  I know that Brussels was much more appealing due to the availability of creche (I think it's free?).  If you do have concerns about childcare, I wonder if you could legally bring your nanny/helper (if you have one) with you from HK?  

Another Switzerland point - raclette.  Yum, I've never had an easy time finding it outside of Switzerland!

[rupertpenny]

Cicero there is a Lycée Français International here but that's not where she would go (yet). I just happen to live in a neighborhood that is super popular with French expats and there is a small French nursery school down the street.

mabillon I do have a helper and I LOVE her. I don't know if she would want to move to Europe though, she has a young daughter in the Philippines. The worst part about eventually leaving HK will be leaving her.

Did you learn French when you were there as a kid?

[dulcemariamar]

What kind of line of work are you interested in? Luxembourg is a really popular place for expats so you might want to consider it as well.

[rupertpenny]

Mar 18, 2016 8:59:55 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

What kind of line of work are you interested in? Luxembourg is a really popular place for expats so you might want to consider it as well.

I'm an archivist. I never see job postings in lux but I doubt that means they don't exist. Geneva has a lot for UN and Red Cross and places like that.

[Cicero]

The UN is a really great gig if you can get it. We have some friends who are translators and interpreters there. The UN's per diem rate is 2.5x more than the (incredibly generous) one we get.

[dulcemariamar]

Mar 18, 2016 10:25:07 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

Mar 18, 2016 8:59:55 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

What kind of line of work are you interested in? Luxembourg is a really popular place for expats so you might want to consider it as well.

I'm an archivist. I never see job postings in lux but I doubt that means they don't exist. Geneva has a lot for UN and Red Cross and places like that.

There are so many EU institutions here that you could probably find something.

[Cioccolato]

Geneva is pretty great, so is Lausanne. Rural, Neuchatel, not so much.

[jrabbit1976]

I have lived in Zurich for 3 years and really enjoyed it. I guess it depends on your hobbies, I guess I've always been old at heart, I don't like a lot of noise. Living in the NL drove me nuts and I even lived in the 'burbs. But I find lots to do, I love anything outdoors so it works for me. I also live right on lake Zurich, so great swimming, biking, walking trails right outside of my door step. I love Kanton Zug and Zurich. I also was lucky to make great friends here (sigh, none Swiss though LOL).

Enjoy if you go.