Tourists treating WTC Memorial like a playground

[315bride]

I think it's disgraceful that people treat it like an 'amusement park.' I have been to the memorial and it is a deeply moving experience. At the moment, only a limited number can enter the site at a time but soon it will be open to all. It's a gorgeous design and it will only get better once the trees have grown and the museum opens. I have seen photos of the museum and it is ah-mazing. They're finishing the spire on WTC right now and, in time, this will be a very busy area of lower Manhattan. I am sure people will hang out there in a more normal way soon.

The names on the ledges as well as the pools illuminate at night. I did take photos while there. I absolutely do not think it's ok to sit on the ledges. It's strange that this is an issue because they are not bench height. It's hard to see from the stock photo above but they are about weight waist height. So it's mostly kids who get plopped on there by their parents or whomever.

It's just sort of disrespectful since those names are, for some, the only grave site their families have to visit. These families have access from their own entrance at all times and they do, in fact, come to mourn. They leave flowers tucked into the names of their loved one, like this:



The worst is that some tour companies are starting to offer 9/11 memorial tickets as part of a package. The people don't always know what it is or really want to be there.

Even worse, is that some schools are bringing kids on field trips without maybe giving them info about how to act at a memorial site. Recently, a group was caught throwing stuff into the pools. Not cool. I am surprised the WTC unit cops had enough restraint to not throw those kids in there after the junk they threw in.

[teamc]

Sept 3, 2012 16:15:31 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Wow that picture says A LOT.

And who allowed a design where the names were basically a ledge on a seat height wall? That's asinine. People run through the water at the WWII memorial, so Im thinking we're just misnaming these things and they should be momuments instead of memorials. Tourists cannot comprehend the somber atmosphere of a memorial when on vacation in shorts and cameras around their necks.

[315bride]

Sept 3, 2012 19:22:16 GMT -5 teamc said:

Sept 3, 2012 16:15:31 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Wow that picture says A LOT.

And who allowed a design where the names were basically a ledge on a seat height wall? That's asinine. People run through the water at the WWII memorial, so Im thinking we're just misnaming these things and they should be momuments instead of memorials. Tourists cannot comprehend the somber atmosphere of a memorial when on vacation in shorts and cameras around their necks.

That's what I'm trying to tell you; it's not seat height.

[niemand88f]

Sept 3, 2012 19:22:16 GMT -5 teamc said:

Wow that picture says A LOT.

And who allowed a design where the names were basically a ledge on a seat height wall? That's asinine. People run through the water at the WWII memorial, so Im thinking we're just misnaming these things and they should be momuments instead of memorials. Tourists cannot comprehend the somber atmosphere of a memorial when on vacation in shorts and cameras around their necks.

It's not really seat height. This picture is from the linked article in the OP. I can't see adults hopping on there, but obviously parents are setting their children and belongs up there.

[ttt]

Sept 3, 2012 20:38:40 GMT -5 niemand88f said:

Sept 3, 2012 19:22:16 GMT -5 teamc said:

Wow that picture says A LOT.

And who allowed a design where the names were basically a ledge on a seat height wall? That's asinine. People run through the water at the WWII memorial, so Im thinking we're just misnaming these things and they should be momuments instead of memorials. Tourists cannot comprehend the somber atmosphere of a memorial when on vacation in shorts and cameras around their necks.

It's not really seat height. This picture is from the linked article in the OP. I can't see adults hopping on there, but obviously parents are setting their children and belongs up there.

Umm it looks like kind of a long way down with the waterfall - forget the respect issue, but that looks kind of like an unsafe place to perch a small child.

[PinkSquirrel]

This is a random picture I took of the area not right near the memorials. It looks like your standard NYC park. I saw someone get yelled at for sitting on the bench looking things in the middle of the picture. They're not right near the memorials and they have no names on them.

A PP said that it was a deeply moving experience, I'll be honest and say that I've been to a number of memorials and this was hands down the least moving memorial I've been to. I can't put my finger on exactly why that was, but it felt more like a tourist trap than a memorial.

I'll also ditto that the names are not at seating height. They're higher, but they are right at resting shit on them height. I would never even dream of putting anything one them because they're memorials and I know better, but it's pretty easy for people to do without thinking about it.

[vccake]

My friend sat in Roosevelt's lap (wheelchair) at his memorial. I told her it prob wasn't respectful to do so -- she said she wasn't really thinking. The minute she got up someone else sat in his lap.

And I think that will happen with future generations -- they just won't really take it to heart until they are ready to do so.

I don't think we should sit on names, etc. But staying somber? I was married at a world war I memorial in Philly and I attend civic meetings there all the time -- but I do take time to think about what the venue really stands for. And they built the memorial for community use -- pretty smart imo.

[marynjoe]

People don't know etiquette anymore. If they see a bench, they're going to sit down. If they see a lawn, they're going to sit on it and picnic on it. And kids are going to run around.

The memorial needs more of signs, videos, reminders, or whatever else, to let people know the guidelines on how to act.

[Michelle]

Sept 3, 2012 16:51:46 GMT -5 @irishbride said:

I have zero problem with people using the park as a park.

But sitting on that? That's bad.

This. I would expect that in the vicinity of the memorial people would be solemn and respectful.

[bethaboo]

I'm coming out of lurking to weigh in on this.

My uncle was killed in the Vietnam War years before I was born. I never met him, but his loss has been significant to me as I have seen the impact it had on my grandparents, aunts and mom. There is a local park with a miniature version of the wall in Washington DC and the last time I had family there, we decided to go visit. There were people picnicking and joking around when we got there, which was definitely okay with me.

However, there was also a group of kids skateboarding and smoking pot. What bothered me most was that they were doing skateboard tricks on the wall, which was leaving marks on the marble. I was also bothered by the paper cereal bowl that someone left on the ledge of one of the walls. My uncle ended up saying something to the kids, who were pretty rude in response.

Anyways, I guess my point is, that it would bother me to see people's food mess and kids sitting on my loved ones' names, but I have no problem with it being a place of recreation if it's in a park setting.

[ttt]

The other thing is that the 9/11 memorial isn't just a memorial - it's the actual site of thousands of people's deaths. In that way, it's more like the beaches of Normandy than like the Vietnam memorial.

I don't have a problem with recreation in the park parts because that's what parks are for, after all. But it's an asshole thing to put your butt or your bag on top of the names of people who died there.

[sugarbear]

When I went to Dachau, there were German school children there, on a field trip. Probably one hundred or so? They were playing on the grass right in front of the ovens: picnicking (sp?), frisbee, tag, etc. I was horrified.

I think I would be ok with lunching at WTC, but breaking out the frisbee might be a bit much for me.

[summer]

Sept 3, 2012 23:47:02 GMT -5 sugarbear said:

When I went to Dachau, there were German school children there, on a field trip. Probably one hundred or so? They were playing on the grass right in front of the ovens: picnicking (sp?), frisbee, tag, etc. I was horrified.

Sugarbear! That would make me lose my mind. Oh, the children I would snatch up!

I could see that I'm maybe being unreasonable about it. FWIW- I cried my eyes out for at least a full day when the city took the missing posters down and again when they turned the towers of light off. And the tourists down there have always driven me batty. They have the right to do what they want down there and I have the right to judge them for it.

I just can't see going to the actual part with the names and plopping my Macy's bag on it. Regardless of what design flaws the architect may have made. You don't plop a bag or an ass on a tombstone just because it's seat height and you don't do it here. It's tacky, rude, and disrespectful.

Like Irish said, do what you want in the park bit, get some sun, relax, have fun, but you don't act like those names aren't there.

[315bride]

Like ttt and summer, maybe I'm just different than the rest of you. I have a personal connection to this site. I will think of it daily, probably for the rest of my life.

I see those names as someone's child, sibling, or spouse. Thousands of people died there, burned there and this is the place where their (some unidentified) bodies lay to rest. That itself moves me. The survivor tree still lives and stands. The pools illuminate beautifully and the waterfalls are soothing. The names are organized so that NYC rescuers are listed together, as the families asked them to be. The museum is a glass reminder of the original buildings, including some of the same beams found at the original site.

I am sorry, PinkSquirrel, that it was boring for you. I am not sure what you were expecting. I know, actually, there are people like you who are underwhelmed. Maybe I am just glad that it was done well and not made into some Disney-esque ride. I never wanted it to be anything but a place to give peace to people.

I am glad this space was made into a beautiful park space but I do absolutely think that people should have some acknowledgement of what it really is. It's a tomb.

[Deleted]

I don't get the design argument. The Oklahoma City memorial used chairs to represent each victim. They are blatantly chairs, they don't just resemble them. But would anyone in their right mind sit on them? I sure as hell never saw anyone think about it.

Ditto PPs: its a grave site, too. People actually died there.

OCM picture for those who haven't been:

media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/88/92988-004-52A1F428.jpg

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2012 21:43:44 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

People don't know etiquette anymore. If they see a bench, they're going to sit down. If they see a lawn, they're going to sit on it and picnic on it. And kids are going to run around.

The memorial needs more of signs, videos, reminders, or whatever else, to let people know the guidelines on how to act.

That's what a bench is for - sitting. A park is for picnicking.

It sounds like the problem is that the designers and operators aren't in synch about what this memorial park is for. If they wanted complete somberness and for people to remain standing, they should have made a cemetery. They certainly must have some recognition that they added a green space to NYC, so it's going to be used as a park, and a place to sit and have lunch.

If those cement benches pictured above aren't for sitting, I sure hope there is something that people are allowed to sit on!

[Deleted]

S-21 in Cambodia has signs with a smiling face and camera with a cross through it, S-21 was used for torture so i can't see why anyone would take a picture of themselves smiling, so if they need it in Cambodia, maybe these signs would be useful here as well.

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2012 6:57:02 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Sept 3, 2012 21:43:44 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

People don't know etiquette anymore. If they see a bench, they're going to sit down. If they see a lawn, they're going to sit on it and picnic on it. And kids are going to run around.

The memorial needs more of signs, videos, reminders, or whatever else, to let people know the guidelines on how to act.

That's what a bench is for - sitting. A park is for picnicking.

It sounds like the problem is that the designers and operators aren't in synch about what this memorial park is for. If they wanted complete somberness and for people to remain standing, they should have made a cemetery. They certainly must have some recognition that they added a green space to NYC, so it's going to be used as a park, and a place to sit and have lunch.

If those cement benches pictured above aren't for sitting, I sure hope there is something that people are allowed to sit on!

But these, non bench height structures, are not in the park part. The park surrounds the memorial.

[summer]

If you can't be bothered to refrain from sitting your Duane Reade bag on the name of someone who died in the towers, then you need to find somewhere else to be. Isn't it a couple of feet to walk to the park that surrounds the memorial.? Or did I not see the picture right?

[karinothing]

From the picture with the officer I don't see why people would think it was okay to sit on it. Even if it is seat height, seat height doesn't automatically = an okay place to sit. But maybe they need to have signs put up reminding people to respect the site if people are going to be idiots. Kind of like what they do at Arlington Cemetary.

I will say that even though people act goofy at the memorials/monuments in DC I don't really see anyone "misbehaving" at the vietnam memorial. I think the names there make it more of a somber experience.

As the pp mentioned I have seen people climbing on the statues at the FDR memorial, but I think a memorial for a former president is very different than a memorial over a place where people died.

[bethaboo]

Sept 3, 2012 23:15:22 GMT -5 ttt said:

The other thing is that the 9/11 memorial isn't just a memorial - it's the actual site of thousands of people's deaths. In that way, it's more like the beaches of Normandy than like the Vietnam memorial.

That's a very good point. When I think of it like that, it does kind of seem disrespectful to be playing around with frisbees, etc.

[PinkSquirrel]

Sept 4, 2012 5:17:08 GMT -5 @315bride said:

I am sorry, PinkSquirrel, that it was boring for you. I am not sure what you were expecting. I know, actually, there are people like you who are underwhelmed. Maybe I am just glad that it was done well and not made into some Disney-esque ride. I never wanted it to be anything but a place to give peace to people.

I didn't think or say it was boring at all. What I said was that it wasn't as moving as many other memorials I've been to. I think it's actually really stunningly beautiful and the rushing water is soothing.

I also said the reason I didn't think it was as moving is because of the atmosphere there. I think a big part of the atmosphere comes from the Disney-esque hoopla surrounding getting in. I mean everyone must have a ticket, but you just have to enter your name to get one, or if you don't get one in advance you can get one the day of. Then you're ticket is checked no less than 5 times while in line. I'm sorry, but that's a damn circus act. No one is any safer because someone checked to make sure you have a piece of paper that anyone can get with ease. I was rolling my eyes hard before getting into the space. I also have issues with being asked for donations when getting tickets and the bins no the grounds. I think turning it into a money grab definitely changes the mood and tone for me even if that money is just supposed to go to the costs associated with having employees there to check peoples tickets a million times for no reason.

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2012 5:17:08 GMT -5 @315bride said:

Like ttt and summer, maybe I'm just different than the rest of you. I have a personal connection to this site. I will think of it daily, probably for the rest of my life.

I see those names as someone's child, sibling, or spouse. Thousands of people died there, burned there and this is the place where their (some unidentified) bodies lay to rest. That itself moves me. The survivor tree still lives and stands. The pools illuminate beautifully and the waterfalls are soothing. The names are organized so that NYC rescuers are listed together, as the families asked them to be. The museum is a glass reminder of the original buildings, including some of the same beams found at the original site.

I am glad this space was made into a beautiful park space but I do absolutely think that people should have some acknowledgement of what it really is. It's a tomb.

ICAM with your comments. I have not yet visited this site but hope to someday. The fact that so many lives were lost there - that there are still victims buried beneath - absolutely makes it a tomb and the surroundings a cemetery, not a park. Having trees, benches, and the like does not automatically render a setting a park.

This site is no more a park than Arlington National Cemetery, with its many trees, water fountains, and benches etc., is a park. There are plenty of places folks can go if they are looking for that type of setting and I'm sorry, but if they can't behave respectfully, maybe they should go elsewhere.

[marynjoe]

Sept 4, 2012 6:57:02 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

It sounds like the problem is that the designers and operators aren't in synch about what this memorial park is for. If they wanted complete somberness and for people to remain standing, they should have made a cemetery. They certainly must have some recognition that they added a green space to NYC, so it's going to be used as a park, and a place to sit and have lunch.

I agree.

[expatpumpkin]

Sept 3, 2012 14:45:17 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

The most powerful memorial I've been to Hiroshima. It was a mixed use park with the museum, statues, sculptures, oh and families picnicking, playing frisbee. I think the juxtaposition made it better.

Ditto about Hiroshima.

While visitors shouldn't be blatantly disrespectful, the reality is that it's an open space in the middle of a dense city. It will be used as a park.

[expatpumpkin]

Sept 3, 2012 16:59:02 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sept 3, 2012 13:01:46 GMT -5 teflep said:

Agreed. As much as I would not do this, I can't expect all to take it the same.

I don't know. When you're in a cemetery I think it's common courtesy to not do certain things. I see a memorial like this in the same light. I wouldn't want someone trampling on the graves of my family members or spilling coffee on them because they're careless. I would expect the same thing anywhere.

The cemeteries in London are mixed use. They even have dog-walking/cycling/rollerblading paths. DH doesn't really like walking through the one near our house, but I don't mind and my dog loves it. I don't find it disrespectful to the dead - there's only so much green area, and the living need access to it too

[Deleted]

people are assholes. that's nothing new.

the space clearly has park-ish stuff and memorial-ish stuff. anyone crass enough not to discern or respect the difference won't care that they're crass assholes who should be given atomic wedgies and thrown off of the staten island ferry.

[ttt]

I don't understand why you need tickets to go into the memorial - can someone explain? Why isn't it freely open to the public?

I think it's also important to remember that the bodies of many who died there were never recovered. Their husbands, wives, parents, children never got to bury them and don't have a gravesite to visit. This is it for them. I can't imagine that anybody would want someone sitting on their mother or child's tombstone chowing down on a hot dog and spilling coffee.

[jaylea]

I am seeing both sides of this here.

On the one, I don't think that cemetaries/memorials need to be all somber. We have a cemetary in our neighborhood that is used for people walking, bike riding, feeding ducks, walking dogs, etc. People are respectful, stick to the roads/trails, and don't litter, etc. When I'm there with my family, I always stop by my friend's grave for a somber moment.

But the sitting on the names is awful. Loud, crass behavior is awful. But visiting the area and allowing life to go on seems reasonable.

[pixy0stix]

This is why it took forever to find a design that everyone could somewhat agree with, everyone has their own ideas about what is appropriate.