s/o queen for a day - how do you fix education?

[emisi]

Ship over the school system from Norway and implement it here. In English.

[Deleted]

I ban private schools.

Shit just got real, right??

[emisi]

I was wrong, it's the Finland school system I would ship over (those Scandanavian countries all run together for me).

Here's an article about it.

I would write more, but my back is killing me and my phone is dying, so I can't go into detail. I need to go lay on the couch.

[basilosaurus]

May 17, 2012 13:03:02 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I ban private schools.

That's it? So, you just overloaded already underfunded and crowded public schools with no other reform?

[emisi]

May 17, 2012 13:03:02 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I ban private schools.

Shit just got real, right??

That's one of the things Finland did! Helps a lot, actually.

[Deleted]

1) Making teaching as respected a profession as being a doctor or lawyer.


2) Montessori for everyone--more hands on learning, maniplatives, self direction

3) cut back siginificantly on the amount of testing

[NitaX]

May 17, 2012 13:05:24 GMT -5 emisi said:

May 17, 2012 13:03:02 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I ban private schools.

Shit just got real, right??

That's one of the things Finland did! Helps a lot, actually.

Please go on.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 13:04:30 GMT -5 emisi said:

I was wrong, it's the Finland school system I would ship over (those Nordic countries all run together for me).

Here's an article about it.

I would write more, but my back is killing me and my phone is dying, so I can't go into detail. I need to go lay on the couch.

Finland isn't really scandinavian. Its language isn't a Scandiavian Togue. I've fixed your mistake :-)

[basilosaurus]

I definitely would have a national curriculum. In a discussion on the train in the UK, they were shocked we didn't have one. I mean, they knew our education system was fucked, but they were still in shock at that one.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 13:06:46 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Get rid of teacher unions. Pay teachers more. Base raises for teachers on merit. Test less often. Create a national curriculum. Even out the amount of money spent per pupil so that it's the same everywhere. Work to increase the status of teachers in the US. School would start at 8:30 am and only have one month off in winter and one in summer. Cut spending on sports and other extracurriculars.

As to class size, some studies have shown that larger is better, so before determining what the national curriculum should be, I'd have to decide on smaller vs. larger classrooms (I think smaller is better when kids are younger) and then do you want to teach Singapore math, US English, etc. I think the US is better at the critical thinking classes, but for math and science we are not as good.

I also think that we need to have it so that not every kid is on the college track. Germany starts a bit young with apprenticeships, but I think that by 15, you should know which kids are meant for college and which kids would be better off in various trade schools. I'd also have fewer colleges.

Sorry my sentences were choppy. I started thinking very dictator-y and my thoughts were like bullet points.

All those people who hate unions in my 'hood are now pissed that there is no union to protect a popular math teacher that was not renewed for next year.

We are moving to a national curriculum. Most states have now adopted the core standards.

I agree with you on bringing back vocational education, but not just for hair dressers and plumbers but robotics, engineering, etc. too

[Deleted]

I think the problem with private schools is that it allows some of the most involved, educated, and well versed parents to check out of the public school system entirely. Their time, their energy, their presence at school board meetings, their donations, their vested interest in the community as a whole, are all valuable things that should be included in the system and would help the system as a whole.

There is something wrong with a system that allows the people who would push most vigorously for change to just opt out of the conversation.

Now banning private schools isn't all that I would do but I would like to see that as part of the solution.

Remember, we're talking about my queen for a day bias and in my area, there are a shitton of schools in areas that have wealthier, more educated parents in them but those parents don't give a shit because their kids go to the preppy ass schools.

[noonecareswhoiam]

May 17, 2012 13:08:13 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

I would tackle poverty, hunger, and homelessness first. When I was done, I would think most school issues would right themselves.

Winner, winner chicken dinner! Right here we see what accounts for a good part of Finland's success.

And their teachers even have unions!

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 13:14:46 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I think the problem with private schools is that it allows some of the most involved, educated, and well versed parents to check out of the public school system entirely. Their time, their energy, their presence at school board meetings, their donations, their vested interest in the community as a whole, are all valuable things that should be included in the system and would help the system as a whole.

There is something wrong with a system that allows the people who would push most vigorously for change to just opt out of the conversation.

Now banning private schools isn't all that I would do but I would like to see that as part of the solution.

Remember, we're talking about my queen for a day bias and in my area, there are a shitton of schools in areas that have wealthier, more educated parents in them but those parents don't give a shit because their kids go to the preppy ass schools.

i'm a product of private schools. My mother was active, involved etc... but at some point you just get tired of fighting the fite and call uncle and put your kids in private school. My SIL walked the walk and put her kids in state schools, DH's other siblings are all in top UK public schools. Guess which ones will be at Oxbridge and which ones won't. I'm not sure I'm comfortable playing politics with my kids' futures.

[Deleted]

Oh yes, definate national curriculum although I do think there should be a couple units of state specific social studies.

I have no problem with teachers unions but some of them have too much power. Is there a way to balance that?

I also agree with the mention of vocational schools. College should be an option for any and all who are interested but vocational schools should be pushes as an equally viable and respected option, especially in areas where high school graduation rates are a problem.

[Deleted]

SBP-On the montessori, I was talking more about using the materials then necessarily letting the kids run free, but I do see some value into giving kids long term research projects of their choosing that the teacher guides them through.

[heightsyankee]

May 17, 2012 13:07:05 GMT -5 @septimus said:

1) Making teaching as respected a profession as being a doctor or lawyer.


2) Montessori for everyone--more hands on learning, maniplatives, self direction

3) cut back siginificantly on the amount of testing

Yes! these 3!

And I can see HAB's point about private school but other crap would have to happen 1st because if it didn't all these parents would either homeschool or hire in-home teachers or some other way to circumvent the system.

I would definitely implement the Montessori method as the standard for public school. while it may not be best for every kid, it's better for the vast majority and definitely better than what we have now.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 13:17:36 GMT -5 @septimus said:

i'm a product of private schools. My mother was active, involved etc... but at some point you just get tired of fighting the fite and call uncle and put your kids in private school. My SIL walked the walk and put her kids in state schools, DH's other siblings are all in top UK public schools. Guess which ones will be at Oxbridge and which ones won't. I'm not sure I'm comfortable playing politics with my kids' futures.

Which is why I wouldn't let it be an option. You see a difference because there is an option.

Of course if this was all insituted tomorrow, there would be a problem but I guarantee you if no private was the way it had always been or if we were ten years after instituting it, meh.

That being said, I would give parents options for choosing types of education. Montessori would be an option. It just wouldn't be a private school. All schools would have a minimum standard for curriculum, activities, etc. But some schools would offer different things and parents could choose which type suited them better.

[cookiemdough]

May 17, 2012 13:17:36 GMT -5 @septimus said:

May 17, 2012 13:14:46 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I think the problem with private schools is that it allows some of the most involved, educated, and well versed parents to check out of the public school system entirely. Their time, their energy, their presence at school board meetings, their donations, their vested interest in the community as a whole, are all valuable things that should be included in the system and would help the system as a whole.

There is something wrong with a system that allows the people who would push most vigorously for change to just opt out of the conversation.

Now banning private schools isn't all that I would do but I would like to see that as part of the solution.

Remember, we're talking about my queen for a day bias and in my area, there are a shitton of schools in areas that have wealthier, more educated parents in them but those parents don't give a shit because their kids go to the preppy ass schools.

i'm a product of private schools. My mother was active, involved etc... but at some point you just get tired of fighting the fite and call uncle and put your kids in private school. My SIL walked the walk and put her kids in state schools, DH's other siblings are all in top UK public schools. Guess which ones will be at Oxbridge and which ones won't. I'm not sure I'm comfortable playing politics with my kids' futures.

I think the difference between what you posted and what Habs is saying is that there is no alternative. So parents don't get to "get tired" and take their child out of the system. They have to keep working at it. I grew up in a decent sized city and we only had one private school, so pretty much everyone went to public schools. All of them were decent, even the ones in not so great neighborhoods. However, now they have started more private schools (which have taken active kids and parents away from public education) and also created public charter and magnet schools which takes kids away from zoned schools. There is almost too much school choice and the resources are spread thin so now the "bad" schools outweigh the "good" schools significantly, when previously all of the schools were decent and all had the programs necessary to get a quality education.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

I'm torn on the union issue. I'm in a "right to work" state, and it's extremely limiting for teachers. Our superintendent is a malevolent dictator taking untold sums for frivolous travel, threatening to close 12 schools in the district and fire 223 teachers while still promising smaller class sizes (?) and now he's touting that he organized 4,500 people to attend a rally for this new initiative. He fails to mention in all of this horn-tooting that 4,000 of those people were teachers bussed in during school hours--no cars to leave and attendance was taken every half hour.

Teachers are afraid to speak out because there is no one to advocate for them. Utter one wrong word and you're out the door. There is plenty wrong with unions keeping unfit teachers afloat, but there's got to be some middle ground.

I agree that tackling poverty will be the catalyst for everything else to fall into place. Parental un-involvement is the number one obstacle for students, and short of a magical change in attitude, giving parents more resources would have an enormous impact on kids' performance.

[emilyj]

Several things:

1. I would get rid of standardized testing (or drastically reduce the amount of it). I would not tie school funding/teacher evaluation to standardized testing in any way, shape or form. There are too many outside variables that can affect how a child does on a test that should not be determining school funding or teacher's evaluations

2. I would start an education/trade program for teachers - by that I mean if you want to be a teacher, your education would be free, but in return you would be sent to whatever district the state determined you should go to for a set period of time (say 10 years for the hell of it). This way, you could disperse teacher talent all over the state, and the best teachers wouldn't all be going to the best school districts year after year. After the 10 year period, you could go where you choose.

3. I would like a convincing argument to keep tenure for K-12 teachers. I'm not necessarily against it. I just don't understand why it needs to be in place.

4. I don't know that I'd ditch the Federal Dept. of Education, but I do think they need a massive overhaul.

5. Make the arts and music mandatory parts of the curriculum. None of this slashing of the arts for the budget.

[Deleted]

And not to be heifer but if you want the teaching profession to be more respected, the training is going to have to be more rigorous, more intense, and probably end up being more expensive and teachers are going to have to elevate themselves to a higher personal standard and carry themselves with more dignity and be willing to be graded on a more measurable curve than the emotional I'M A GOOD TEACHER AND I HAVE BUMPERSTICKERS AND PAY FOR CRAYONS deal that's going on now.

[Deleted]

HAB would you end homeschooling too?

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 13:28:16 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

And not to be heifer but if you want the teaching profession to be more respected, the training is going to have to be more rigorous, more intense, and probably end up being more expensive and teachers are going to have to elevate themselves to a higher personal standard and carry themselves with more dignity and be willing to be graded on a more measurable curve than the emotional I'M A GOOD TEACHER AND I HAVE BUMPERSTICKERS AND PAY FOR CRAYONS deal that's going on now.

Yup. Several of my good friends are teachers and said that the basic skills test for teaching was a joke and you basically needed a pulse to pass. I also think that the attitude of parents is something that needs to be changed because too many want to blame the teachers for their kid failing or acting out in class.

[Deleted]

Also, I kind of want year round schools. And not this nine weeks on, two weeks off business.

But if we do that, school is going to be a more rounded experience and go beyond having one's ass in a chair 8 hours a day. That would be a nightmare.

I mean a full day program that gives adequate time for projects, home ec, gardening, recess, family style lunch, finance courses, etc.

I might be going too far with this queen business. lolol Especially since financially, this shit ain't happening. But you said queen which means I get to allocate federal, state, and local funds as I see fit to make my puppies and rainbows dreams possible.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 13:30:04 GMT -5 @septimus said:

HAB would you end homeschooling too?

Yes, actually, I would.

I'm not anti-homeschooling. I was homeschooled. But if private schools go, so does homeschooling.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

May 17, 2012 13:30:34 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

May 17, 2012 13:25:53 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

I'm torn on the union issue. I'm in a "right to work" state, and it's extremely limiting for teachers. Our superintendent is a malevolent dictator taking untold sums for frivolous travel, threatening to close 12 schools in the district and fire 223 teachers while still promising smaller class sizes (?) and now he's touting that he organized 4,500 people to attend a rally for this new initiative. He fails to mention in all of this horn-tooting that 4,000 of those people were teachers bussed in during school hours--no cars to leave and attendance was taken every half hour.

Teachers are afraid to speak out because there is no one to advocate for them. Utter one wrong word and you're out the door. There is plenty wrong with unions keeping unfit teachers afloat, but there's got to be some middle ground.

I agree that tackling poverty will be the catalyst for everything else to fall into place. Parental un-involvement is the number one obstacle for students, and short of a magical change in attitude, giving parents more resources would have an enormous impact on kids' performance.

Couldn't this be solved by some sort of increased whistleblower program/protections? You could have a statewide hotline number and everything is confidential - when 20 complaints from teachers (not parents) come in within 3 years, the superintendent or whoever is out the door. You could set up a warning system or something so it's not out of the blue for those in charge. Perhaps have an investigator to look into things.

Probably. There have been petitions to the state Sec of Ed and even the State Atty General, but nothing has happened. This is also an extremely racially-charged area, and I get the feeling that many see our black superintendent as untouchable. Education is just so political, things move at about the same pace as they do in actual politics. Change seems hard to come by.

[Deleted]

Habsies-
Your proposal sounds like a liberals dream... what a spectacular way to indoctrinate young children.. full day school with food for them (I feel like I'm channeling the comment section of my local paper)

[basilosaurus]

I'm not sure it's the training that's why teachers aren't as respected. It's a woman's profession and isn't highly paid. The ed majors in my college had to also double major in something else. So you had math or bio or spanish majors combined with 2nd ed. Plus, they had practicums. That's more work than I put in.

Throwing all the kids into public schools still doesn't address funding. More kids, same funds since it comes from static taxes.

I also disagree that private school parents are necessarily more involved. I thought parents chose private schools so that they wouldn't have to fight for their kids to have a good education. They could abdicate that responsibility to schools they trusted.

[cookiemdough]

May 17, 2012 13:39:43 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm not sure it's the training that's why teachers aren't as respected. It's a woman's profession and isn't highly paid. The ed majors in my college had to also double major in something else. So you had math or bio or spanish majors combined with 2nd ed. Plus, they had practicums. That's more work than I put in.

Throwing all the kids into public schools still doesn't address funding. More kids, same funds since it comes from static taxes.

I also disagree that private school parents are necessarily more involved. I thought parents chose private schools so that they wouldn't have to fight for their kids to have a good education. They could abdicate that responsibility to schools they trusted.

Most of the private schools I visited for DS had required parental volunteer hours you had to fulfill.

[heightsyankee]

May 17, 2012 13:18:51 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Montessori doesn't work for everyone. PTS would be terrible in a montessori setting. Her self direction would be like, "Color, color, color, oooohhh is that glitter on the floor, THERE ARE BIRDS OUTSIDE!!! When is snack? I'm tired."

Actually she probably wouldn't. While work choice is student led, the classes are run like the fucking military. They have freedom to choose but it is in a very structured and scheduled environment. I think this is one of the most widespread misconceptions about Montessori school- something I didn't even really know until I was actually a parent of a Montessori student. They can't color until they've done their learning work for the day, or completed some other task that has earned them free choice. Snack is the same time every day and it's a very set routine. The teachers ring that bell and 30 kids stand up like a bunch of meerkats and shut their mouths. It's crazy to see.

I mean, yeah, it's not right for every kid. Nothing is, but the whole philosophy is really geared to how kids learn, how their brains work at every age. It would work for far more kids than it wouldn't. Obviously you know your kid and I don't, but I think that more often than not we hear things about Montessori that aren't really true. After all, it's not fucking Waldorf.