s/o queen for a day - how do you fix education?

[heightsyankee]

I'm opting out of public because of the very testing we're bitching about here. We have a lottery system in Houston and my kids could end up at some of the most sought after public schools in the city if we have a good lottery pick but that doesn't matter because these schools still have to adhere to all the test prep and testing, causing them to miss valuable learning time and exhibit adult levels of stress as early as kinder. I could care less what the <<useless anyway>> test scores are.

[sporklemotion]

May 17, 2012 15:26:09 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

May 17, 2012 15:10:38 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I think the point of sending kids to private school is buying, or at least attempting to buy, your kid an advantage (vis a vis the public schools). Whether or not it works out is ultimately up to the kid. I generally agree with you on the judgment part, except that you sound like a pretty normal parent to me.

Anyone in your situation (REALLY crappy public schools and means to pay for a better private school) that doesn't choose the private school does not prioritize the education of their kids. They don't want that advantage as much as they want something else. I'm purely talking at voting with your dollars here.

As to the value judgement, I think that MH's parents were actually riduculous and unnecessary in how much they spent on MH's schooling. I wouldn't spend that much on my kid (ie, if there is a perfectly good private high school down the street, I'm not going to pay for a crazy NE prep school). I do think there is a point of going too far, but that doesn't change my basic point, which is that people spend money based on their priorities. That's why it's called discretionary income, no?

I think people are generally equating "respect" with presumed salary and presumed intelligence. Both of which are not always accurate, but generally the presumption is that lawyers are smarter than teachers and better paid than teachers even if their profession lacks the nobility that teaching does. If teachers want people to think they are smart and should make a lot of money, they need to have more rigorous professional standards and fewer people qualifying to teach.

sbp, I agree with many of the things you've said in this thread about tightening the standards and changing the perception that teaching is a fallback profession for people who weren't smart enough to do other things (I say this as a teacher who did well in my non-education major in college and who didn't find the formal teacher prep to mean much). I think the problem with the idea of a medical-school education model with higher starting salaries and fewer people qualifying is finding the money to pay for it-- will people be willing to pay that much more in taxes?
The idea that there will be "fewer people qualifying to teach" might help from a pay/respect/quality perspective, but would this yield enough people to staff schools fully without making schools prohibitively expensive? Or would class sizes have to go up a ton so that fewer teachers are needed in each school?

[cookiemdough]

wawa you have a pm!

[cookiemdough]

May 17, 2012 16:06:48 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

May 17, 2012 15:51:33 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Just wondering...what are you basing your review of the public schools on.

I'm not going to speak for cookie, but as someone else who is opting out of public schools, I am basing my decision almost entirely on the fact that my "community school" requires its kids to use clear backpacks so that no one can conceal weapons and bring them to school. That, in combination with things like the short classroom instruction time, the over-crowded classrooms, the school lunch program, which some schools are making mandatory in participation, among a whole host of other failings of my local school district have made it abundantly clear that my commitment to "working from the inside" to better our schools is far outweighed by my desire for my daughter to not be afraid of her classmates and to actually get an education.

Add to that the fact that the private school system here is self-perpetuating in that the longer you wait to get into it, the harder it is to get in, and you couldn't pay ME to send my kid to CPS. And there's no risk of anyone offering to pay me anyway. Nope. We're shelling out around $7000 a year in property taxes and can't send our kids to our community schools.

Yep, safety is a dealbreaker. If the school wasn't safe then my personal opinions / philosophy be damned, DS would be in private school without question.

It is also true about the concern about getting in to private if you don't start earlier. Middle school is such a hard time for kids in terms of age that many parents who decided to do public for primary school don't feel that is an option for middle school. It becomes more difficult to get into private school because demand increases.

[teflepo]

May 17, 2012 16:11:02 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

May 17, 2012 15:51:33 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Just wondering...what are you basing your review of the public schools on. Are you talking with parents of kids who did excel there? Are you talking with the principal/admin/teachers directly? Or are you doing what most parents do and looking for test scores showing improvement? Test scores alone? Those same test scores that show more about poverty and socio-economic range than actual ability of teachers to teach? That's what a lot of the internet sites and even districts have to offer for you to compare only b/c you can't measure the other parts of school as well.

I fell into this same trap and ended up putting my kid in a choice school not the neighborhood school at public pre-K. It's hard to be one of the first to want to ignore the test scores and keep their kid in a lower performing school, but after being in the public-school world for longer, I wish I would have spent more time learning about the positive things in a more diverse, lower performing school than worrying about making my kid the test case vs. making their life easier. It's not a simple answer, I just have a little more hind-sight on my own decision now.

ETA - This is not directed at the OP quoted. This is more an observation from another comment.

That being said, I would never put my kid in a Christian school if I wasn't that religion. Plus a lot of private Christian schools also have terrible curriculum and actually less training required for the teachers. The ones in my area are worse than the public schools, but that wasn't the case in the state we just moved from. Also, my sister is a great teacher, but not accredited by her state and has taught at good Christian/Catholic schools in Boston area for years. However, she also doesn't have to do continuing education and other things that go with keeping current with the teaching profession since they are private schools.

No I am not basing my impression of the public school based on test scores. When I visit the school I plan to meet with the principal if possible. A lot of it is based on watching school board meetings to track many of the changes impacting my zoned school and following its progress in our town newspaper. Because of the number of parents using private options or going to other schools through the lottery program, I don't actually know any kids in my neighborhood that attend the zoned school. However, we are in the middle of two really good elementary schools and so that is what gives me hope that it can be turned around with some commitment from parents in the community. The socioeconomics for this school is no different than the other two schools.

Most of the private schools in my area are religious-based schools. The other ones in surrounding towns that are not religious-based are a half hour out of the way for going to work in the morning with no transportation and are prohibitively expensive. I have talked to the parents at all of the religious schools we considered and do recognize not all are on the same level in terms of education. The schools we have narrowed it down to are the best fit for our family. We are methodist but were not deterred at the thought of going to a Catholic school (or at least this particular one based on our visits there).

the Catholic schools in your county do have to have certified teachers. That diocese just finished this requirement. With that comes ceu needs. Pg county has a rotating layoff schedule as they hire conditionally certified and that expires in 2 years. So, they often are replacing 1100 or so teachers. That definitely impacts their schools.

[Melissa W.]

May 18, 2012 13:01:28 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i would fix education by getting rid of all public schools. the responsibility of educating children always was and should be on the parents and the community. i feel the main problem with education is that the government is involved.

i'm against teacher's unions and raises. i think teachers have a very important and honorable role in society, about as important and honorable as the duties of being a parent. but they should be accepting this role as a life mission, not a way to get rich. someone said 70k for a teacher salary? with our tax money? i think that's ridiculous. teachers should do it for room and board, minimum wage and a pension. sanitation workers are just as critical to society, but no one thinks they should get paid that much. public service is public service and shouldn't be done for individual profit besides the honor and knowledge that you are helping your society.

that's my beautiful fantasy world. it's so pretty it makes me smile....or cry.

In my area the community is the government. Is it different in other places in the U.S. ?

[Deleted]

I don't know why I am bothering, but banana, you do realize that 70k isn't exactly living large in many parts of the country and there are many state and federal workers who probably earn in the ballpark already. You really think people will want to teach (or engage in any profession for that matter) in exchange for room and board?

[wawa]

I could make that much in my field working for the government with a few more years under my belt. In fact...as a gov't contractor the gov't (feds and local) pays well more than that for my services since my billing rate is well above my salary.

Why in the world you'd choose sanitation workers as a valid comparison to teachers rather than engineers, accountants, laywers or other skilled professionals who often do gov't work is a bit of a mystery here.

[heightsyankee]

May 18, 2012 13:01:28 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i would fix education by getting rid of all public schools. the responsibility of educating children always was and should be on the parents and the community. i feel the main problem with education is that the government is involved.

And what about when the family unit and the community are broken, ravaged by poverty? We just say "fuck those kids" and move on?

[iammalcolmx]

May 18, 2012 13:01:28 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i would fix education by getting rid of all public schools. the responsibility of educating children always was and should be on the parents and the community. i feel the main problem with education is that the government is involved.

i'm against teacher's unions and raises. i think teachers have a very important and honorable role in society, about as important and honorable as the duties of being a parent. but they should be accepting this role as a life mission, not a way to get rich. someone said 70k for a teacher salary? with our tax money? i think that's ridiculous. teachers should do it for room and board, minimum wage and a pension. sanitation workers are just as critical to society, but no one thinks they should get paid that much. public service is public service and shouldn't be done for individual profit besides the honor and knowledge that you are helping your society.

that's my beautiful fantasy world. it's so pretty it makes me smile....or cry.

Fess up who was bored and came up with this response to rile up locals?

[Deleted]

Actually, sanitation workers make about as much as teachers do in many places, at least from what I've seen.

And yeah, only kids whose parents give a damn AND have the skills and money to educate their children deserve to get ahead in life. The rest deserve to rot.

Please, sir, may I have summoar grammar lessons?

[iammalcolmx]

May 18, 2012 14:18:34 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Well first thing, cut the dick off that mofo that made 30 babies ...

OMG!!! The sound I made reading this reply!!!

[iammalcolmx]

Teacher = Maid? ::takes a seat::

[Deleted]

I'll take your opinions on education more seriously when you learn about proper grammar, capitalization, and punctuation.

Until then, I'll be writing you off as one of those people who says, "I didn't have x as a kid and I'm just fine!"

[wawa]

No, you got it right. Stick around. We're here to argue. It's no fun arguing when we all agree, and on certain topics there is a lack of people who take the opposing viewpoint. Just don't take it personally when nobody agrees with you and do your best to back your view up and we'll get along just fine.

So doctors and lawyers are not public servants - but doctors who work for the CDC or lawyers who work for the DOJ are....what? Should they also be paid in room and board?

I would very much like to hear the answer to what replaces public school if it is abolished. If testing is good, if regimented learning is good...then what happens after the public schools are gone? How could that be a good thing?

[Deleted]

How come nobody thinks Wall Street bankers should do their work for room & board and a pension? I mean, shouldn't they see maintaining the financial health of this country (HAHAHAHAHAHA) as a life mission?

[wawa]

Also...I think banana is wrong as wrong can be here, but I'm side eyeing the shit out of the writing critiques. I hope I am still worthy of having an opinion even though I can't spell worth a damn and tend toward comma splices.

[Deleted]

See, I'm just having flashbacks to this:



A world where kids get little to no education because, girls don't need fancy book larning, Ma needs help with the little ones, the pass done got snowed over for the winter, or Paul's gonna be an over the road trucker just like his pa and he don't need to know more than basic figgering to do that.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2012 14:36:04 GMT -5 wawa said:

Also...I think banana is wrong as wrong can be here, but I'm side eyeing the shit out of the writing critiques. I hope I am still worthy of having an opinion even though I can't spell worth a damn and tend toward comma splices.

There is a different between the occasional error and writing like a 2nd grader, especially when discussing education.

[Melissa W.]

Our local school (Ie. Mytown Public Schools.) are funded by the tax dollars of the people who live in Mytown. So yeah, my community is educating my kids. We do get money from the state but about 1/2 is from the people who live in town.

[doctordonna]

May 18, 2012 13:01:28 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i would fix education by getting rid of all public schools. the responsibility of educating children always was and should be on the parents and the community. i feel the main problem with education is that the government is involved.

i'm against teacher's unions and raises. i think teachers have a very important and honorable role in society, about as important and honorable as the duties of being a parent. but they should be accepting this role as a life mission, not a way to get rich. someone said 70k for a teacher salary? with our tax money? i think that's ridiculous. teachers should do it for room and board, minimum wage and a pension. sanitation workers are just as critical to society, but no one thinks they should get paid that much. public service is public service and shouldn't be done for individual profit besides the honor and knowledge that you are helping your society.

that's my beautiful fantasy world. it's so pretty it makes me smile....or cry.

Cool story, bro.

[heightsyankee]

May 18, 2012 16:09:38 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

so my experiences are somewhat scewed by the military upbringing.

Skewed.

[MrsAxilla]

May 18, 2012 13:01:28 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i would fix education by getting rid of all public schools. the responsibility of educating children always was and should be on the parents and the community. i feel the main problem with education is that the government is involved.

i'm against teacher's unions and raises. i think teachers have a very important and honorable role in society, about as important and honorable as the duties of being a parent. but they should be accepting this role as a life mission, not a way to get rich. someone said 70k for a teacher salary? with our tax money? i think that's ridiculous. teachers should do it for room and board, minimum wage and a pension. sanitation workers are just as critical to society, but no one thinks they should get paid that much. public service is public service and shouldn't be done for individual profit besides the honor and knowledge that you are helping your society.

that's my beautiful fantasy world. it's so pretty it makes me smile....or cry.

Sisu - is that you? Seriously, I read the first line and thought "yay! She's here!" before I looked at the name.

[basilosaurus]

Wawa, it's really difficult to read uncapitalized garbage. There's a reason some forums have capitalization as a minimum standard. It's not that hard.

I'm not touching this room and board business.

[MrsAxilla]

May 18, 2012 16:09:38 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

yes, i do think public servants including teachers should be given what they need to live, like room and board, but only minimal salaries in exchange for their life's service. my father retired at E7 and made ~17k/yr when he retired. we were in the poverty range throughout most of his career. i got free lunches in elementary and reduced in junior high and high school. i wore a pair of shoes til they fell off. poverty is not something that holds one back from gaining higher education or success in life. at least in my experience.



lawyers that represent the state are public servants. so are judges. your defense lawyer is employed by you to represent you for money. the public servants do their job in defense of justice for the whole society, not just the one man who is paying them. i don't know what to say to the wall street comment. i view those people as crooks and liars and bad for america.

The problem with this logic is that only low education, unskilled workers will take those jobs. You really think the best way to serve justice is to have bottom of the barrel judges and public defenders? Not to mention educators - idiot teachers = poorly educated students = stupid, unskilled workforce. You should check out Idiocracy.

[Deleted]

Huh, interesting theory there. Funny because my husband, mother, and grandfather all served in the military and I'm pretty damned sure that they've never seen a 60% black military.

Also, one can be a racist and never use the n-word. Surely you understand there is more to discrimination than one's vocabulary.

[marie427]

BF - Your tax dollars would be paying for teachers' room and board too, wouldn't it? And also their pension? So who cares if they get that as a $70k salary versus minimum wage plus housing and food plus whatever?

[marie427]

Also, at least in this area, sanitation workers don't make shit money. At all. So would you recommend they share dorms with teachers and work for minimum wage too? Who else should be living in these dorms?

[rugbywife]

bananafish...here is the flaw in your logic: if you want an educated population you need educated people to teach them...I am a teacher, and yes, I make 85k a year but I also have 3 university degrees and have continued to educate myself over the course of my 11 years teaching. Would I do this job for less? I might but I can tell you this much: education systems that pay their teachers the highest salaries end up with the best quality education.

[basilosaurus]

May 18, 2012 16:52:18 GMT -5 marie427 said:

BF - Your tax dollars would be paying for teachers' room and board too, wouldn't it? And also their pension? So who cares if they get that as a $70k salary versus minimum wage plus housing and food plus whatever?

They should be living in a dorm, with small cots. Their food should be bread, water, and occasional gruel. Huge cost savings!