Asset division (pension)

[asoctoberfalls]

PDQ any of this.  I will delete details.

I posted an intro, but the basics are: H and I married right out of college 13 years ago.  Neither of us brought any assets or debt into the relationship. H is the one who decided to leave me quite unexpectedly.  He mentioned doing a dissolution right off the bat, which basically means we have to agree on everything.  It's a lot faster and cheaper than a divorce.  In a completely predictable turn of events, I've hired a lawyer to draw up the paperwork.  He hasn't retained a lawyer yet, and although he says he's going to, I don't think he will.

I met with my lawyer on Saturday to review the first draft of the dissolution paperwork.  Most of it is very straightforward - we split the 401(k)'s 50/50, we already split our cash assets, done.  Easy, right?  Except when we got to H's pension.  The lawyer said we would hire QDRO to perform an analysis on the present value of the pension.  I mentioned this to H when we were going over what the lawyer said.  (Again, because we are doing a dissolution, this should be amicable and we should be able to discuss it.  Any disagreements will just cost me money in attorney fees). 

H flipped out about his pension.  He basically thinks it is his because of his work with the company, I have no right to it, etc.  I know he is 100% wrong, legally and (I believe) morally.  He knows he's wrong legally but thinks he's right morally.  He has basically told me he will hate me forever if I try to take his pension.  He's really weird about it because his dad was married before he married his mom, and his former wife was granted his dad's pension in the divorce.  His dad hated his ex-wife the rest of their lives, and my H hated her too.  It's really stupid, but that's where we are.

I know if we went before a judge, they would order the QDRO analysis and I would win.  I know H is 100% wrong.  However, I'm trying to figure out how much the pension might be valued at so I can decide if it's worth the legal fees to fight him.  I can't find any calculators that will even give me a guess as to what its present-day value might be.  All I know is the value when he's 65 is $700/month (he's 37 now).

Does anyone know of a way to calculate this?

[winecat]

Could a forensic accountant help with this?

[itsmyparty]

My lawyer sent the pension statement from my husband's employer - which we got via subpoena - to an accountant or financial planner of some kind to get a current day value. We then put those details into our preliminary settlement offer.

This is a decision for you to make. Yes, you are legally entitled to half of it. But you don't have to take it. My husband also is quite defensive of his pension, so I agreed to let it go in exchange for a little more of the 401k. It was worth it to me to make things go a little smoother in settlement negotiations.

[asoctoberfalls]

May 22, 2016 23:21:42 GMT -5 itsmyparty said:

My lawyer sent the pension statement from my husband's employer - which we got via subpoena - to an accountant or financial planner of some kind to get a current day value. We then put those details into our preliminary settlement offer.

This is a decision for you to make. Yes, you are legally entitled to half of it. But you don't have to take it. My husband also is quite defensive of his pension, so I agreed to let it go in exchange for a little more of the 401k. It was worth it to me to make things go a little smoother in settlement negotiations.

That's actually exactly what I had in mind - I wanted to take half the present day value of the pension from his 401k. It seems perfectly reasonable to me and I can't figure out why he's balking at it. He says it's not morally mine and I have no right to it.

I have the pension statement. But, the lawyer said we would still need his signature to do the valuation. winecat , I hadn't considered a forensic accountant because I didn't know they existed. I'll look into it!

[asoctoberfalls]

My suggestion to H was this:

A year ago, my employer discontinued their ESOP program and deposited the value of my ESOP (25k) into my 401k. If he thinks morally his pension is his, then there is no way he could argue that the ESOP is a shared asset. (In my eyes and in the eyes of the law they are both marital assets, but I'm trying to follow his messed up logic).

My suggestion is that he keep his pension, I keep 25k of my 401k, and we divide the rest. I hope he agrees to this but he hasn't told me yet.

[itsmyparty]

I haven't heard that the spouse needs to sign off on a statement before getting a valuation. Fact is at this point you're negotiating a settlement and decree in the hopes of not having to go to court...you guys can negotiate anything you want. Just because you get a valuation doesn't mean he has to accept it, or that you even have to ask for half of the valuation. But he should understand that if you go to court, a judge will just split these assets right down the middle 50/50. Or, as my attorney phrased it to me, "All you have to do is show up to court alive and you will get half of everything." Me compromising on the pension - and taking a little less $$ overall - was a way I got him to negotiate and move things along faster rather than draw things out to more expensive options like mediation and trial.

[trident0]

Not an accountant but I poked around online and found a decent calculator: www.pensionbenefits.com/calculators/lumpcal/

It's saying the value is around $100k.

I spend a fair bit of time on the MM board and that calculation seems to be factoring in the safety of having a pension, it's assuming bond-like growth rates until retirement age. You might do better investing that much in stocks, but then, you might not. I assume also that is based on the pension being worth $X/mo of today's money. You might want to sit down and look at the fine print to make sure you're valuing it fairly but it seems like it's worth pursuing.


Edited to remove #'s

[tiffany81]

If you assume he draws it for 10 years, you'd get more than 30,000 (your half of the monthly payment x 12 months x 10 years). That's me rounding down. I bet the PP is correct, it's probably valued around 100k. So he'd owe you around $50,000.

I don't blame you for not asking for your half, but I wouldn't go less than the 25k you already offered.

[asoctoberfalls]

Thanks everyone. I ended up deciding to ask for 25k more from the 401k. H was just so emotionally attached to this pension that even the thought of me having a value determined was straining our already tenuous relationship, and it just wasn't worth it to me to fight for it. As it is, I'll come out of this with just over 100k in retirement assets, so I'm willing to settle for that and work toward building a better financial future once the divorce is finalized.

I appreciate all your input!