Ezra Klein podcast "How America Feels to Trump supporters."

[gretchenindisguise]

pca.st/ezraklein

I was listening on my way I to work today and about halfway through.

Anyone else want to listen and discuss?

[OscarQ]

I'm listening now.

[CrazyLucky]

Ok, I downloaded it, but I won't get a chance to listen to it until my drive home today. I'll try to check back in on Monday.

[OscarQ]

FiveThirtyEight is also doing a three part series on voters. This week was republicans, next week is democrats, the following week is everyone else - I forgot how they tagged that group.

[isabel]

Sept 30, 2016 10:27:41 GMT -5 OscarQ said:

FiveThirtyEight is also doing a three part series on voters. This week was republicans, next week is democrats, the following week is everyone else - I forgot how they tagged that group.

I think it's independents and third party voters.

I might download the Ezra Klein one, although my gut reaction is that I don't really care how America feels to Trump's supporters.

[katietornado]

Sept 30, 2016 10:36:22 GMT -5 isabel said:

Sept 30, 2016 10:27:41 GMT -5 OscarQ said:

FiveThirtyEight is also doing a three part series on voters. This week was republicans, next week is democrats, the following week is everyone else - I forgot how they tagged that group.

I think it's independents and third party voters.

I might download the Ezra Klein one, although my gut reaction is that I don't really care how America feels to Trump's supporters.

Seriously.  I've been doing my best to be empathetic, and understand that my experience is privileged, and it is not everyone's experience.

But I started an experiment.  When the news interviews Trump supporters at rallies, I look those people up on facebook.  One guy this week was bitching that HRC calls him deplorable, and then I found him on facebook.  He had a "Most Interesting Man in the World" meme that said, "I don't always hate Muslims ... wait, yes I do."  So yeah, deplorable.  Fucking ALL of you.

[gretchenindisguise]

Sept 30, 2016 10:36:22 GMT -5 isabel said:

Sept 30, 2016 10:27:41 GMT -5 OscarQ said:

FiveThirtyEight is also doing a three part series on voters. This week was republicans, next week is democrats, the following week is everyone else - I forgot how they tagged that group.

I think it's independents and third party voters.

I might download the Ezra Klein one, although my gut reaction is that I don't really care how America feels to Trump's supporters.

This episode is a few weeks old, and I actually skipped over it because I didn't want to listen.

I did this morning and I thought it was worthwhile. At least the 1/2 of it that I've listened to thus far. And since Ezra and I are so aligned in our beliefs, he was asking the questions I would have been asking.

I've found it interesting and worthwhile thus far.

[isabel]

Sept 30, 2016 10:45:31 GMT -5 katietornado said:

Sept 30, 2016 10:36:22 GMT -5 isabel said:

I think it's independents and third party voters.

I might download the Ezra Klein one, although my gut reaction is that I don't really care how America feels to Trump's supporters.

Seriously.  I've been doing my best to be empathetic, and understand that my experience is privileged, and it is not everyone's experience.

But I started an experiment.  When the news interviews Trump supporters at rallies, I look those people up on facebook.  One guy this week was bitching that HRC calls him deplorable, and then I found him on facebook.  He had a "Most Interesting Man in the World" meme that said, "I don't always hate Muslims ... wait, yes I do."  So yeah, deplorable.  Fucking ALL of you.

Also, my dad is a Trump supporter. That guy has a pension, very well funded retirement accounts, owns 4 houses, has enough free time to garden and go wine tasting with his wife, and, so far as I can tell, the worst thing in his life is the fact that he is "tired of hearing about" gay people, BLM, Planned Parenthood, etc. That last bit was said to me the last time we got into a heated political argument and he flipped out on me when he said women shouldn't get abortions and I questioned who is going to help those women pay for medical care and baby supplies. "Oh, just stop it! Stop it! I am so sick of hearing about how Republicans do nothing to help other people and how are these people going to get by without government help." Soooo, he's not exactly drawing a lot of sympathy from me.

[OscarQ]

I listened. I didn't get much out of it.

I think the last part is pretty much the bottom line. This boils down to feelings vs. reality. Some of those feelings, such as feeling the economic pinch of a new service based economy, is real. It doesn't mean we should cater to it but it's not 100% an illusion. It is actually finally trickling down to impact lower income whites. But they also said that these changes first impacted minorities.

So basically, deal with it and let's address how the service economy is impacting people. Still not a reason to vote for Trump. I have no sympathy though - between this, the racism and the other thread about the religious right I just...don't care anymore about their issues. I should. I know I should but HRC isn't stupid. She'll address as much as she can the failings of the service economy. Trump won't and manufacturing - albeit up a bit recently - is not coming back. There will never be a huge increase and suddenly every Joe Smith out of high school can go to work in the neighborhood factory and make a solid middle class living. That is just reality - the place where I prefer to live for all it's warts.

Also, I had issues in the beginning when it was framed as a "we don't understand those stupid southern voters" thing. Ohio isn't the south. Neither is Pennsylvania for all the Pennsyltucky jokes. Neither is upstate NY. So that's why I keep coming back to economy / entrenched systemic racism and the ongoing tangle of those two issues. As a diehard Dem from birth I just shake my head that all these voters see this as their reality, want someone to help them...and then they vote republican.

I have more thoughts - yesterday I had a whole thing about the environmental laws and the impact that had on the Dems relationships with labor unions but I need to do some more digging into that before talking about it. And I have to run out the door now so I'm saving that for my hangover reading tomorrow.

[gretchenindisguise]

Ok, so I finished listening on my way home.

I get the premise, and I don't disagree with it on the surface a bit. But one stay, this election cycle and the things I've heard/read have made me realized that there are far more actual deplorables than I estimated prior to this election season. I think Arlie Hoshchild makes this same mistake. When talking about the Trump supporters Hillary calls deplorables, she says well she's referencing the David Dukes of the world and not the people I spoke to of the world and implied that the David Dukes of the world are a really small number. I think it's bigger than she thinks it is. And you could kind of hear that when Ezra commented on how many Trump supporters he has writing him anti-semetic emails. It seemed like she was taken aback by that, and I think if she sat and read his emails for a week, she'd be exposed to a different reality than she was expecting.

I also think when she was talking about the privilege stuff that she doesn't get privilege enough. The example she gave of the blue collar worker who only had 1 week vacation with his position and after a year that moved to 2 weeks. She said "well he certainly isn't privileged" in comparison to a white 1%. But that ignore the privilege of having a job, of being hired and not passed over because of your name, for not being followed around in a store, for being able to secure a mortgage loan at good rates, etc. Her definition and view through which she understood privilege was much too narrow.

That said, I do think that the way she talks about the Trump supporters who are in the 1/2 of the basket that isn't deplorable makes sense. I do think if we are able to actually talk to and listen and if they are able to actually talk to and listen that we would find common ground that we could build from.

[nomad100]

isabel ,what is is about rich old white people not wanting to hear about the realities of life for those different from them?

My parents are the same way (though my Dad is apparently voting for Johnson not Trump like my mother). So is DH's mom (who supports Trump because Hillary is, according to her, a serial killer). All are old white and well off. According to DH his uncle talked about how he was tired of hearing about those Muslims, the gays and how all lives matter. How he was tired of having to be PC last time they were in town. Fuck them all.

My mom likes to throw how she was an immigrant and how they had it so hard but she was also blond, blue eyed, white and Christian so not exactly part of a group that would be targeted. She totally dismisses that white privilege applies to her since she is an immigrant even if she is a northern European white Christian immigrant. SMH.

[gretchenindisguise]

Oct 1, 2016 10:27:00 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

isabel ,what is is about rich old white people not wanting to hear about the realities of life for those different from them?

My parents are the same way (though my Dad is apparently voting for Johnson not Trump like my mother). So is DH's mom (who supports Trump because Hillary is, according to her, a serial killer). All are old white and well off. According to DH his uncle talked about how he was tired of hearing about those Muslims, the gays and how all lives matter. How he was tired of having to be PC last time they were in town. Fuck them all.

My mom likes to throw how she was an immigrant and how they had it so hard but she was also blond, blue eyed, white and Christian so not exactly part of a group that would be targeted. She totally dismisses that white privilege applies to her since she is an immigrant even if she is a northern European white Christian immigrant. SMH.

What she says in the podcast about this is basically that these people see our "quota" for diversity as already being full or tipped too far over.

It's the classic argument about white people not wanting to become a minority, that we've talked about around here.

Unfortunately for them, it's happening whether they want it to or not and the sooner they can accept that the better. They just aren't there yet and I think a lot of what we are seeing is their final attempt at [vein] resistance against it.

[epphd]

I listened to it yesterday (aside: thank goodness for this board - I listen to podcasts when I run and when I clean/do dishes and I am constantly looking for new ones!) and agree with gretchenindisguise and OscarQ. I thought about 25 minutes of it was interesting and compelling: the notion of the "deep story", how to talk with your alarm system off - those are intriguing and frankly good advice in a variety of contexts. What frustrated me is that Ezra kept asking her about the times when facts contradict reality and she basically said that one needs to look at ALL the facts. The subtext to me was that maybe there is some truth to the frustration and assertions these folks feel/make. But then she mentioned a bunch of facts that simply back up the fact that his supporters - while authentically in mourning, are also authentically wrong.

I don't know what to do about that. I understand that they REALLY feel marginalized and pushed to the back of the line, but compared to others - they haven't been.

[gretchenindisguise]

Oct 1, 2016 10:34:48 GMT -5 epphd said:

I listened to it yesterday (aside: thank goodness for this board - I listen to podcasts when I run and when I clean/do dishes and I am constantly looking for new ones!) and agree with gretchenindisguise and OscarQ. I thought about 25 minutes of it was interesting and compelling: the notion of the "deep story", how to talk with your alarm system off - those are intriguing and frankly good advice in a variety of contexts. What frustrated me is that Ezra kept asking her about the times when facts contradict reality and she basically said that one needs to look at ALL the facts. The subtext to me was that maybe there is some truth to the frustration and assertions these folks feel/make. But then she mentioned a bunch of facts that simply back up the fact that his supporters - while authentically in mourning, are also authentically wrong.

I don't know what to do about that. I understand that they REALLY feel marginalized and pushed to the back of the line, but compared to others - they haven't been.

I was thinking about this when she talked about HRC heading down to Louisiana and talking to the folks Arlie talked to. Her implication was that it would change HRCs impression of these folks. I actually think there'd be more change on the other side if they could turn their alarms off and learn her "deep story."

[nomad100]

gretchenindisguise, I tell my parents, when they talk like this, that they will be dead before whites are the minority so why do they care so much? (my MIL talks about how she is dying all the time and my mom has already planned her funeral...they are in their 60s and 70s so not sure what is going in their heads).

That usually get me the "when did you become so liberal?" question.

[gretchenindisguise]

Oct 1, 2016 10:42:41 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

gretchenindisguise, I tell my parents, when they talk like this, that they will be dead before whites are the minority so why do they care so much? (my MIL talks about how she is dying all the time and my mom has already planned her funeral...they are in their 60s and 70s so not sure what is going in their heads).

That usually get me the "when did you become so liberal?" question.

"when I was born?"

[isabel]

Oct 1, 2016 10:27:00 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

isabel ,what is is about rich old white people not wanting to hear about the realities of life for those different from them?

My parents are the same way (though my Dad is apparently voting for Johnson not Trump like my mother). So is DH's mom (who supports Trump because Hillary is, according to her, a serial killer). All are old white and well off. According to DH his uncle talked about how he was tired of hearing about those Muslims, the gays and how all lives matter. How he was tired of having to be PC last time they were in town. Fuck them all.

My mom likes to throw how she was an immigrant and how they had it so hard but she was also blond, blue eyed, white and Christian so not exactly part of a group that would be targeted. She totally dismisses that white privilege applies to her since she is an immigrant even if she is a northern European white Christian immigrant. SMH.

Make America Great Again! AKA Return me to my life growing up in the 1960s where black people knew their place, women often stayed at home to raise kids, and I didn't have to hear about gay and transgender people because they knew to keep their mouths shut.

[nomad100]

Oct 1, 2016 10:46:05 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

Oct 1, 2016 10:42:41 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

gretchenindisguise , I tell my parents, when they talk like this, that they will be dead before whites are the minority so why do they care so much? (my MIL talks about how she is dying all the time and my mom has already planned her funeral...they are in their 60s and 70s so not sure what is going in their heads).

That usually get me the "when did you become so liberal?" question.

"when I was born?"

For me it was actually when I moved out of my upper middle class white republican bubble to Chicago.  Spending over a decade there exposed me to so many things that I never knew about.  And made me the proud liberal I am today.  

[taratru]

Sept 30, 2016 10:55:29 GMT -5 isabel said:

Sept 30, 2016 10:45:31 GMT -5 katietornado said:

Seriously.  I've been doing my best to be empathetic, and understand that my experience is privileged, and it is not everyone's experience.

But I started an experiment.  When the news interviews Trump supporters at rallies, I look those people up on facebook.  One guy this week was bitching that HRC calls him deplorable, and then I found him on facebook.  He had a "Most Interesting Man in the World" meme that said, "I don't always hate Muslims ... wait, yes I do."  So yeah, deplorable.  Fucking ALL of you.

Also, my dad is a Trump supporter. That guy has a pension, very well funded retirement accounts, owns 4 houses, has enough free time to garden and go wine tasting with his wife, and, so far as I can tell, the worst thing in his life is the fact that he is "tired of hearing about" gay people, BLM, Planned Parenthood, etc. That last bit was said to me the last time we got into a heated political argument and he flipped out on me when he said women shouldn't get abortions and I questioned who is going to help those women pay for medical care and baby supplies. "Oh, just stop it! Stop it! I am so sick of hearing about how Republicans do nothing to help other people and how are these people going to get by without government help." Soooo, he's not exactly drawing a lot of sympathy from me.

I didn't know we are sisters!

[nomad100]

Oct 1, 2016 11:26:35 GMT -5 Catlawdy said:

Oct 1, 2016 10:27:00 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

How he was tired of having to be PC last time they were in town.

Dh said if anyone complains about PC at Thanksgiving, he's going tell them that he just though PC was being polite, and if he doesn't have to be polite anymore, he's got a few things to say.

DH, because he is a good guy totally shut him down, asked uncle if not being PC meant he just wanted to be an asshole.  Uncle stuttered some crap about not wanting to have to think about everything he says all the time.  DH replied with being PC is just not saying every stupid, racist, bigoted, or sexist thought that comes into your head you know.  You like to tell people you are a smart man, you should be able to figure out how to do that.  Uncle didn't have much to say about all that afterwards.  

ETA:  I fully anticipate that there will be a shitstorm at TG.  

[katietornado]

Has anyone seen this article yet?

I feel a very deep despair after reading it. Like, I feel bad for this woman, obviously. Terrible things have happened to her, some of which were out of her control. And she is very clearly suffering from some kind of mental illness. Yet I also feel this blinding rage toward Alex Jones, Donald Trump, Michael Savage, all these fuckfaces who prey on these obviously vulnerable people with their conspiracy theories and outright lies. And then I am wondering how we've created a country with millions of people in it just like this woman.

Seriously this article will make you scream or cry or both:

www.washingtonpost.com/national/finally-someone-who-thinks-like-me/2016/10/01/c9b6f334-7f68-11e6-9070-5c4905bf40dc_story.html?tid=sm_tw

[aurora]

Oct 1, 2016 22:23:37 GMT -5 katietornado said:

Has anyone seen this article yet?

I feel a very deep despair after reading it. Like, I feel bad for this woman, obviously. Terrible things have happened to her, some of which were out of her control. And she is very clearly suffering from some kind of mental illness. Yet I also feel this blinding rage toward Alex Jones, Donald Trump, Michael Savage, all these fuckfaces who prey on these obviously vulnerable people with their conspiracy theories and outright lies. And then I am wondering how we've created a country with millions of people in it just like this woman.

Seriously this article will make you scream or cry or both:

www.washingtonpost.com/national/finally-someone-who-thinks-like-me/2016/10/01/c9b6f334-7f68-11e6-9070-5c4905bf40dc_story.html?tid=sm_tw

Wow. I don't even know what to say to that.

[OscarQ]

Oct 1, 2016 22:23:37 GMT -5 katietornado said:

Has anyone seen this article yet?

I feel a very deep despair after reading it. Like, I feel bad for this woman, obviously. Terrible things have happened to her, some of which were out of her control. And she is very clearly suffering from some kind of mental illness. Yet I also feel this blinding rage toward Alex Jones, Donald Trump, Michael Savage, all these fuckfaces who prey on these obviously vulnerable people with their conspiracy theories and outright lies. And then I am wondering how we've created a country with millions of people in it just like this woman.

Seriously this article will make you scream or cry or both:

www.washingtonpost.com/national/finally-someone-who-thinks-like-me/2016/10/01/c9b6f334-7f68-11e6-9070-5c4905bf40dc_story.html?tid=sm_tw

Just finished this and was coming in here to post it. Screaming and crying. I just shake my head at whatever this craziness is and be continued mistaken believe that any R is going to do anything for such folks.

I also loved the phrase parallel reality (or something like that). I've been using alternate reality but parallel is more accurate. It's the sliding doors of political reality.

[fortnightlily]

Oct 1, 2016 22:23:37 GMT -5 katietornado said:

Has anyone seen this article yet?

I feel a very deep despair after reading it. Like, I feel bad for this woman, obviously. Terrible things have happened to her, some of which were out of her control. And she is very clearly suffering from some kind of mental illness. Yet I also feel this blinding rage toward Alex Jones, Donald Trump, Michael Savage, all these fuckfaces who prey on these obviously vulnerable people with their conspiracy theories and outright lies. And then I am wondering how we've created a country with millions of people in it just like this woman.

Seriously this article will make you scream or cry or both:

www.washingtonpost.com/national/finally-someone-who-thinks-like-me/2016/10/01/c9b6f334-7f68-11e6-9070-5c4905bf40dc_story.html?tid=sm_tw

I saw it and couldn't bring myself to read it. It's the same feeling I get when I pass over an episode of "Hoarders".

[litebright]

I feel the same way after this that I did after reading the WaPo story about the people that Dylan Roof was living with before he killed nine people at the bible study in Charleston.

I went back and checked, and both of those pieces were by the same reporter. Here's the other one:

www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/09/12/an-american-void/

[boxertdog]

Sept 30, 2016 10:36:22 GMT -5 isabel said:

Sept 30, 2016 10:27:41 GMT -5 OscarQ said:

FiveThirtyEight is also doing a three part series on voters. This week was republicans, next week is democrats, the following week is everyone else - I forgot how they tagged that group.

I think it's independents and third party voters.

I might download the Ezra Klein one, although my gut reaction is that I don't really care how America feels to Trump's supporters.

Right? Because we've all been through a lot of shit. And the rest of us didn't decide to blame and hate everyone else for it.

[CrazyLucky]

I listened over the weekend. It was hard for me to listen to it, because I felt like Arlie Hochschild speaks way....too....slowly.
I did like her concept of deep stories, which was kind of an extension of Stephen Colbert's truthiness. It's not what the truth is, it's what you feel it is. Some of the statistics she cited - someone who said 40% of people work for the federal government - were astounding.
I could not do what she did, though, so I give her credit. If someone tells me they love Rush Limbaugh because he goes off on femi-nazis and environmentalists, I have almost no interest in what they have to say.
I liked Ezra Klein's point on empathy vs. respect.
One thing I agreed with was the white privilege discussion. Not that I agree with them, but I can absolutely understand how white men can feel like white privilege is a joke if they are poor, unemployed, children of incarcerated parents, abused, whatever. They don't feel as though they have ever benefited from privilege. And so when you say, "You're privileged just because you're white," they don't see it, and it makes them believe the rest of what you have to say even less.
This did not make me feel any better about Trump voters. I disagreed with Romney and McCain voters, but could still respect them. I have a hard time respecting anyone who votes Trump.

[debatethis]

Oct 3, 2016 14:08:35 GMT -5 @mx said:

This is why H and I plan to spend Thanksgiving alone. Seeing family so soon after this election is not something we'd even consider--regardless of the outcome. Honestly I think this election is the last straw in my relationship with most of my family. I had to stop listening to the podcast.

Ditto. My parents have been increasingly more racist and bigoted over the past decade but their vehement support for Trump is about to be the straw that broke the camel's back.