It's brought into politics because this country was founded on religion. I'm not religious, but I understand why it gets brought up. The important thing to me is not that religion is brought up, but that questions like this show exactly how they allow religion to impact their political leadership.
That said, I'm not sure we're to the point where someone can admit to being an atheist and still run as a nominee for a major party. I just don't think there would be enough support.
And I think herein lies the real problem, which I agree with. And I want to see this change. But I just feel like every time an official debate like this brings up faith as an official question, it legitimatizes faith/religion being a part of politics, and I just don't feel that it should be nowadays.
I agree with you when we're talking about people who aren't known to be particularly religious. I wouldn't want to hear a question like that of Trump or Sanders because neither is religious, as far as I'm aware. Tim Kaine and Mike Pence are very well known to be religious men. In this particular case, it's important to me to hear from them how they allow religion to impact policy decisions because those answers were like night and day.
I absolutely see your point, but I also really wanted people to hear Pence's response because that man has never once made a policy decision that is antithetical to his religious beliefs. His religion drives his policy. Kaine keeps his religious views separate from his policy decisions. It's probably the biggest difference between the two of them.
The undecided voters on CBS all thought Trump lost the first debate (except one guy). And almost all of them thought Pence won tonight.
Ouch.
ETA: Are you more likely to vote for Trump because of this debate? Half said yes.
Raise your hand if this debate changed your vote? Zero hands.
So...there's that?
This won't change anything. Harry Enten was emphatic that the VP debate has never once shown an impact on the final election results. This is going to be forgotten in no time.
So I think Tim hammering Pence on Trump's comments and getting Pence to refuse to defend them and pretending they didn't happen was to keep those things in the news cycle. And using it to say even his own running mate can't defend him. It was annoying in real time but it's going to play poorly for Pence and Trump in the news cycle I think.
The undecided voters on CBS all thought Trump lost the first debate (except one guy). And almost all of them thought Pence won tonight.
Ouch.
ETA: Are you more likely to vote for Trump because of this debate? Half said yes.
Raise your hand if this debate changed your vote? Zero hands.
So...there's that?
This won't change anything. Harry Enten was emphatic that the VP debate has never once shown an impact on the final election results. This is going to be forgotten in no time.
Well it helps that the presidential town hall is in 5 days.
Kellyanne has way too much botox in her forehead. She just called Tim Kaine sexist so she can fuck off.
What? In what context?
I think in his interruption of the moderator. Which, frankly, he could have deferred to her more and not been condescending with that "this is important" comment.
And I think herein lies the real problem, which I agree with. And I want to see this change. But I just feel like every time an official debate like this brings up faith as an official question, it legitimatizes faith/religion being a part of politics, and I just don't feel that it should be nowadays.
I agree with you when we're talking about people who aren't known to be particularly religious. I wouldn't want to hear a question like that of Trump or Sanders because neither is religious, as far as I'm aware. Tim Kaine and Mike Pence are very well known to be religious men. In this particular case, it's important to me to hear from them how they allow religion to impact policy decisions because those answers were like night and day.
I absolutely see your point, but I also really wanted people to hear Pence's response because that man has never once made a policy decision that is antithetical to his religious beliefs. His religion drives his policy. Kaine keeps his religious views separate from his policy decisions. It's probably the biggest difference between the two of them.
I agree re: Pence. And I think I would have liked the question better (and it's possible she DID say it this way and I missed it trying to watch and read this thread), if she started with something like, "You both have said religion and faith is important to you in the past...." because I do think asking this of these men in particular is important since they have made their faith (well, Pence, really) a part of their politics. I dislike when faith is brought up apropos of nothing as if it's just an expected thing to ask them about, you know?
So I think Tim hammering Pence on Trump's comments and getting Pence to refuse to defend them and pretending they didn't happen was to keep those things in the news cycle. And using it to say even his own running mate can't defend him. It was annoying in real time but it's going to play poorly for Pence and Trump in the news cycle I think.
This is why I'm deferring my judgement on a winner for now.
So I think Tim hammering Pence on Trump's comments and getting Pence to refuse to defend them and pretending they didn't happen was to keep those things in the news cycle. And using it to say even his own running mate can't defend him. It was annoying in real time but it's going to play poorly for Pence and Trump in the news cycle I think.
That seems to be the consensus on MSNBC. The things Pence denied are all on video. It won't play out well for them once HRC's campaign starts playing videos with Pence saying "it didn't happen" and a shot of Trump actually saying it.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Oct 4, 2016 21:55:07 GMT -5
I do think it's important to talk about politicians' faith influencing their choices because right now we have a lot of leaders who want to make laws based on their beliefs. And Mike Pence was absolutely guilty of this earlier this year. I would've liked to see him try to defend his shitty stance on transgendered individuals. I mean, Trump is running around stirring up fear against Muslims based on his incorrect assumptions about what Islam does and does not teach. I do think that question had a place in the debate because Kaine and Pence have both been vocal about their own faith but have made very different policy choices. I do want to know how much I'm electing a leader and how much I'm electing a Sunday school teacher.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
I had to take a break after the first 20-30 minutes because the kids came home, so I'll have to finish up in about an hour.
I'm only on page 17 of this thread, but damn you've all made me excited to finish watching this debate. I was getting worried there about FHTK. Sounds like he finally found his footing!
I think we just witnessed a bit of psychological warfare. I think the HRC campaign is trying to goad Trump into turning on Pence. Kaine's insistence on asking Pence to defend Trump and Pence's failure to defend him in the slightest, along with him going completely off of Trump's Russia script, sets the perfect bait for Trump's next meltdown.
I do think it's important to talk about politicians' faith influencing their choices because right now we have a lot of leaders who want to make laws based on their beliefs. And Mike Pence was absolutely guilty of this earlier this year. I would've liked to see him try to defend his shitty stance on transgendered individuals. I mean, Trump is running around stirring up fear against Muslims based on his incorrect assumptions about what Islam does and does not teach. I do think that question had a place in the debate because Kaine and Pence have both been vocal about their own faith but have made very different policy choices. I do want to know how much I'm electing a leader and how much I'm electing a Sunday school teacher.
I do see this and agree and think this is important. So maybe I shouldn't say no faith discussed at all if the candidates themselves have made this a talking point in their own campaigns. I feel like so often when the question is asked, it becomes a church-off between candidates (and I'm not just discussing tonight's debate) where very often a message is sent that we want the most Christian person in this job. And I realize that is on the candidates themselves and also us, the public, to see through/make up our own minds about it. I'd love to get to a point where we could have someone who is atheist running against a Christian running against someone who is Jewish and it isn't a big deal or a deal at all, You know?
I do think it's important to talk about politicians' faith influencing their choices because right now we have a lot of leaders who want to make laws based on their beliefs. And Mike Pence was absolutely guilty of this earlier this year. I would've liked to see him try to defend his shitty stance on transgendered individuals. I mean, Trump is running around stirring up fear against Muslims based on his incorrect assumptions about what Islam does and does not teach. I do think that question had a place in the debate because Kaine and Pence have both been vocal about their own faith but have made very different policy choices. I do want to know how much I'm electing a leader and how much I'm electing a Sunday school teacher.
I do see this and agree and think this is important. So maybe I shouldn't say no faith discussed at all if the candidates themselves have made this a talking point in their own campaigns. I feel like so often when the question is asked, it becomes a church-off between candidates (and I'm not just discussing tonight's debate) where very often a message is sent that we want the most Christian person in this job. And I realize that is on the candidates themselves and also us, the public, to see through/make up our own minds about it. I'd love to get to a point where we could have someone who is atheist running against a Christian running against someone who is Jewish and it isn't a big deal or a deal at all, You know?
Oh absolutely. I wish faith didn't have to factor in at all, because for some reason it always seems to turn into "who goes to church more often" or "who does the best Jesus" and I truly look forward to a time when we can have an election with multiple world religions (or perhaps none at all) represented as viable party nominees.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Why don't they just cut off their freaking mics? I really wish people would answer the question instead of just speaking to what they prepared for. I wish they would have focused more on what they would do instead of trying to shift focus on the shortfalls of their opponent or the current administration.