would you start solids? (bottle refuser) (update)

[simpsongal]

Lucy still won't take a bottle (she's 4 months old).  It's her 2nd week at daycare and they're getting concerned.  I've tried just about everything.  Different nipples, positions, television, karo syrup on the tip.  She has taken like 3 bottles.  But I think it was luck.  I figured hunger would win out and she'd get the hang of it.  But I think she's got a wicked a combo of her not really knowing how to take it and also not wanting it.  She's like 25% for weight and doc wants to see her put more on (though I'm not super concerned since DS was long and skinny).  I can't nurse her during the day since my office is an hour away.  She went 10 hours yesterday w/hardly eating a drop.  I WFH twice a week and can keep her with me longer to nurse, but she has at least 3 long days every week. 

I'm tempted to start solids to appease my DCP.  I prefer to wait until 5 months but my pedi said we could start now if she's showing interest.  IDK, does it matter?  She seems so young.  OTOH, I don't think a few scoops of food will hurt her, but it may not help her hunger either.

UGGGGGGHHHHH.

ETA: Thank you all for the support and commiseration. 

ETA 2: Thank you again for the responses.  I've got some more bottles and things to try.  Frankly, I'd be okay KOKO and keep trying different bottles but my DCP is sort of freaking out about this.  She's also very old school.  And she seems to think formula is better than breastmilk.  She told me DD should have had at least a bottle of formula every day since birth. <eye roll> 

I don't want DD to be miserable at DCP and crying a lot, even if there's no concern over her weight.  And, I want to preserve the relationship w/my DCP too (y'all probably remember this is like our third DCP).  So I sent a 2 ounce formula sample today along with my breastmilk and told DCP to try whatever she liked.  DCP gave her some formula w/a syringe.  She also mixed cereal w/the formula.  Apparently DD took a little, not much.

I would prefer DD stick to breastmilk, but if it makes my DCP happy, I'll roll with it.  I know formula is fine, I just hate dumping my pumped breastmilk everyday.  I would have preferred to wait on solids, and I didn't even give DS rice cereal, but a few spoons of rice cereal won't kill her.  And if it helps fill her tummy a bit until she can BF with me, fine. 

Did I rationalize all this enough?  UGH....why won't she just take a damn bottle.

[spk926]

The thing is, she's supposed to get her nutrition from milk/formula, so food isn't what is supposed to fill her up until 1 anyway. Also, since she's so young she still has the tongue thrust reflex so I doubt she'll actually ingest much food where she'll eat an entire meal and feel full like you or I do. And lastly, her gut is so young she might not be able to handle food, cereal, or anything else besides milk/formula yet.

I know I've shared this before but DD was 8% and DS is currently -3%. Not every baby needs to in the upper percentiles. Personally I wouldn't be worried in the least with a baby in the 25%.

I know you're in a hard spot and I don't mean to diminish that at all. I just don't think introducing food is going to magically solve the problem. Can you try a cup or syringe feeding?

[barefootcontessa]

I am sorry. So stressful. My last baby refused a bottle for a long time. We just kept trying. We ultimately had luck with the old school Playtex nipples. What does the pedi say about food?

[simpsongal]

Feb 14, 2017 9:02:34 GMT -5 barefootcontessa said:

I am sorry. So stressful. My last baby refused a bottle for a long time. We just kept trying. We ultimately had luck with the old school Playtex nipples. What does the pedi say about food?

If she's showing interest and sitting up we should go ahead and try (I can prop her  up, not sure it counts as sitting).  Pedi was pretty breezy about it.  I really like him but it seems early.  karinothing we see the same pedi - thoughts?

I wouldn't be terribly concerned if my DCP wasnt so upset and plus DCP thinks it's making her unhappy/cry throughout the day.  We use the playtex nursers.  This morning I tried swapping nursing and bottle.  She didn't scream but she wasn't happy. 

I'm packing a syringe for her today.  DCP has tried a spoon too. 

[osulori]

Feb 14, 2017 8:53:56 GMT -5 spk926 said:

The thing is, she's supposed to get her nutrition from milk/formula, so food isn't what is supposed to fill her up until 1 anyway. Also, since she's so young she still has the tongue thrust reflex so I doubt she'll actually ingest much food where she'll eat an entire meal and feel full like you or I do. And lastly, her gut is so young she might not be able to handle food, cereal, or anything else besides milk/formula yet.

Ditto this.  Early solids eaters generally don't take in much, and those spoon/BLW feeding attempts are really just for practice.  Buuuuut.  If she shows the signs of being ready (interested in what you're eating, opens her mouth if a spoon or something else is coming towards it, has enough trunk control to stay mostly upright in a high chair) you COULD give it a shot with some veggies or fruit.  I'd be prepared for the likelihood that she doesn't take enough to make a difference, as well as the possibility that her tummy may not be ready yet.

Two other thoughts.  1-has the milk she's had in bottles been freshly pumped or frozen and thawed?  If it's all been frozen and then thawed, it could be an excess lipase issue that's making the milk taste different/not great.  

2-will she not let the nipple in her mouth at all, or is she letting it in there but not really sucking on it? Does she take a paci or try to mouth other things like toys?

[namasteak]

CVS gave me some large syringes when I asked. DH could give Ds2 like 10 of them so I could be gone for an afternoon.

You could also try a shot glass (the silicone ones are easiest IMO) or a SNS.

[simpsongal]

osulori, I've tried freshly pumped, refrigerated and frozen. I tasted the milk each way, just sweet (no lipase issue). We've tried different temps too and heating the nipple, doesn't seem to matter.

She'll let the nipple in her mouth and kind of gum it, but she quickly turns her head and closes her mouth to get it out. I've tried short of "shooting" he milk into her mouth like a let down the moment she seems to be in a good position, but it doesn't get her sucking.

She wouldn't take a paci from a young age. I tried for her first couple weeks (Mam, the little green ones too) but she just didn't want it. Her brother liked the paci.

namasteak, what's an SNS? And w/a shot glass, do they like sip from it or something?

[luv2rn4fun]

No advice on how to get her to take a bottle but ditto PP that solids before 1 are for fun/practice, not nutrition

We started solids around 4 months with DS1. DS2 is 4.5 months and we were given the ok by his pedi to start 2 weeks ago. Honestly, I am in no hurry because it's so much more work and he is young so I haven't started yet. Might start in 2 weeks but night wait another month or so.

I would keep pushing the bottle. These things do take time and she will need to eat more than just solids between now and 12 months at daycare. Spoon feed, bottle feed...whatever it takes to get her breast milk or formula into her body.

((Hugs)) that has to be really hard. DS2 appears to be a bottle refused as well but at least I don't have the stress of going to work and can just plan to be home whenever he needs to eat.

[namasteak]

simpsongal My kids are going crazy with the thunderstorms right now but I am trying to find links that I give my clients on alternatives to bottle feedings. Worst case I will send you them during nap time today.

[luv2rn4fun]

DS2 does the same thing with the bottle...and he happily took a pacifier. So frustrating.

[namasteak]

SNS = supplementary nursing system
Some insurances will cover them & Medela makes a decent one www.medelabreastfeedingus.com/products/51/supplemental-nursing-system-sns

[osulori]

simpsongal, ok just checking With a shot glass or similar very small cup, that's exactly what the goal would be-trying to get them to drink from it. I've seen some at the grocery that basically look like little bitty red Solo cups, or you could even use a clean plastic medicine cup. She'd be pretty young for this but you could even try a sippy cup-I would use a harder spout one initially and take the valve out if it has one. That way once you get the spout in her mouth she'd have that quick input of the BM on her tongue. I've had some success with that in the past with little bottle refusers (as young at 5 months if I remember right) that have ended up taking at least a couple ounces at a time with it-sometimes the change in type of drinking apparatus presented (like from bottle to sippy or open cup) is helpful.

[dcn]

I wouldn't start solids yet. Agree that it won't fill her up andnif it does, she should be getting full with milk.

Ds2 was older but he self weaned around 8.5 months and wouldn't take a bottle, I tried one of those Nuk early sippy cups with a silicone spout and had a little success with that. He eventually took the medela bottles that I started with after trying I think 5-6 other nipples and bottles.

[smock]

I'm sorry, my DD1 was like that and it was so stressful. I could get her to take a few ounces if I put her in a bouncy chair, or if I alternated nipple/paci (she liked pacis), or if I used a soft bottle like the Comotomo and just squirted it in her mouth. I tried really fast flow nipples, thinking the payoff would help, but she never took more than about 2 ounces from a bottle, and even that would often take an hour of work.

I'd try non-bottle options before jumping to solids: syringe, sippy/straw cup, SNS. And unless her weight drops, I wouldn't worry too much about her percentile. DD1 was about that same size, and she's now a totally healthy, similarly proportioned 2.5 year old.

[kath16]

i also don't think i'd start foods yet -- the pedi was okay with it IF she's sitting up, which she's not (propped doesn't count, really).

i don't want to dismiss your concerns though. this would make me really sad I agree wtih trying the syringe or different bottles. Have you tried any wide mouth bottles, or jsut the playtex?

[simpsongal]

Feb 14, 2017 9:41:18 GMT -5 kath16 said:

i also don't think i'd start foods yet -- the pedi was okay with it IF she's sitting up, which she's not (propped doesn't count, really).

i don't want to dismiss your concerns though. this would make me really sad I agree wtih trying the syringe or different bottles. Have you tried any wide mouth bottles, or jsut the playtex?

I tried Mam, the cheapie ones from Nuk, Avent, playtex.  I think the Mam and Avent ones are pretty wide.

[mekia]

I was in your shoes with DD. I'm sorry, it's so stressful, I know.

We tried solids (oatmeal) at 4 months, mixed with breastmilk. It didn't work because she still had the tongue thrush reflex. I know we aren't "supposed" to start that early, but I figured I'd feel better knowing she at least is getting something while away from me. We kept trying. She eventually got the hang of it at 7ish months. They recommend starting at 4-6 months anyway.

In the meantime the DCP kept trying with different bottles and syringe. They even tried open cup, suckle cup, spoon too. I would go in and nurse her during prep and immediately after work.

How is she sleeping? How is her temperament at daycare?

ETA: The daycare had the best luck using medicine syringe. DD would take maybe 1 oz max a day with the syringe though :/ 

ETA2: AND now at 17 months old, DD grabs bottles from other babies and tries to drink it herself. Sigh, now she decides bottles aren't too bad? Not helpful. 

[savan]

My DD wouldn't take a bottle either and it was a stressful few months at daycare until I finally quit nursing and forced her to take a bottle because I couldn't deal with it anymore. Is your DD reverse cycling? That's how we managed. I fed her every 2 hours all night long. That was why I ultimately quit bfing because it was not a sustainable schedule for me but I know other people who can make it work.

I will also say that introducing purees did not help things. She refused those as well and we finally gave up and began offering table food at 6-7 months. 8 years later and she is still extremely picky about her food and will only eat a few items.

We did get her to take a bottle once I quit nursing but we had to try a variety of different formulas. She finally accepted similac organic. It is supposedly sweeter than other formulas.

[midwest07]

I don't have experience with this, but what about trying formula? I am not sure if that tastes different than BM, maybe it's that she is used to that "flavor" not coming from a bottle. Plus formula might be higher calorie depending on the kind you get. I realize this is not ideal since you are nursing and pumping and have the BM to use.

How much is she eating when you are together, especially overnight? Is she catching up then or going periods of time between feeding? If she is not feeding all the time when you are together, maybe she isn't that hungry and is able to make it through the day without much eating.

My DD was in a similar range for weight until she was around 6 months, then she really chunked up around 6-9 months, and now is kind of thinned back out. I don't think that percentage is a big concern unless the next time you go she just keeps going way down. If she stays there or close to it, I would be fine with that.

[Ashley&Scott]

simpsongal , you might want to try Breastflow bottles. They use a dual nipple system so the baby has to use suction & compression just like when nursing. These were the bottles we used that helped M transition. Eventually after using these for a little while we were able to switch to Born Free bottles. I agree I would also keep trying other methods. (syringe, spoon, cup, etc) Good luck!

[simpsongal]

midwest07, savan, mekia, she nurses a lot after daycare but she still STTN. I hear rouse around 4 or 5 am lately, so I'll do a dream feed since I know she's won't get much during the day.

[mekia]

Feb 14, 2017 10:10:00 GMT -5 simpsongal said:

midwest07 , savan , mekia , she nurses a lot after daycare but she still STTN. I hear rouse around 4 or 5 am lately, so I'll do a dream feed since I know she's won't get much during the day.

That was DD too. Since she's still STTN, it sounds like she's doing okay. I know it's so hard knowing your baby isn't eating much during the day. Mine was still in the 100% percentile even without drinking anything at daycare. She also still STTN. But nursed a ton while awake/with me. 

[dottyblue]

I'm sorry, it's so stressful. My DS2 was a bottle refuser as well. Have you tried a sippy? She's a little young for it, but we switched to sippies at 5 months because it was the only way he would drink at daycare. I guess he accepted it because it wasn't trying to mimic breastfeeding?

I wouldn't start solids, as others have said, she needs the nutrients from milk and not to fill up on food.

[karinothing]

I think unless she was losing weight I would just KOKO. I would have daycare keep trying to get a bottle. You can introduce solids if you want, but I don't know if I would expect the solids to replace what she needs from milk. Have they tried sippy cups or just a regular cup? I know it can be more annoying, but maybe she would be willing to drink that way.

[midwest07]

Feb 14, 2017 10:10:00 GMT -5 simpsongal said:

midwest07 , savan , mekia , she nurses a lot after daycare but she still STTN. I hear rouse around 4 or 5 am lately, so I'll do a dream feed since I know she's won't get much during the day.

Again, I know it's hard to say "don't worry about it" because you want her to get something into her at daycare but it sounds like she is doing ok if she is also sleeping well at night. Is she generally in a happy mood?

As I said above, I would just watch for weight loss and dropping down on the percentiles. Hopefully she may still get into one of the bottle options or another option and be able to take some in during the day.

[simpsongal]

I just dropped her off at daycare. I included some formula in her bag, DCP said she might try mixing it with breastmilk. She also might try a little rice cereal w/breastmilk. I don't think she'll take much if any, but if it takes the edge off, I'm fine with it. I also included the syringe and the DCP said she'd try it.

I'm not worried about her weight, I just hate to hear that she's unhappy at daycare (she's cat napper anyway). I'll let y'all know how it goes. I'm not hopeful for today since she'll only be there 6 hours or so. But tomorrow will be closer to 10 hours.

I haven't tried a sippie cup w/her yet. I'll send one tomorrow to try.

[simpsongal]

midwest07, DCP said she was pretty happy last week but yesterday was a different story. She definitely has a stronger mommy preference than DS did. DH can't hold her too long before she insists on mom.

[lolo]

And you're absolutely certain there's not a lipase issue? I think you said there wasn't, but I will say that my milk starts tasting soapy before it should and even if it hasn't been frozen.

The dcp can also spoon-feed breast milk.

[mmmomof2]

My oldest daughter only took a few ounces from the bottle when at daycare. She preferred to wait until she saw me. It was stressful, but I knew if she was hungry enough she'd take in a little bit. She definitely reverse cycled, which sucked for me, but helped me see she was getting enough calories. Personally I hated the stress of pumping so it kind of worked out.

[cricketwife]

I am on mobile do will try to link an article that was super helpful to me regarding r bottle refusers. Basically the author and IBCLC feels there are two kinds of refusers - stubborn and confused. If you think she doesn't understand a bottle (that was my DS2) she suggests trying the medela calma (didn't work for us) or bare air bottles. Bare air worked for us --- certainly not the first time . It took a lot if trying but he finally figured it out, literally the day before starting daycare. The bottle is now discontinued (of course!) but I found it on clearance at BRU. We only used that bottle to teach him and once he figured it out switched immediately because the bare air is a PITA.