Want to help work out the logistics of THE TALK with H?

[ProfessorArtNerd]

What I have so far:

Thursday afternoon, at the diner.  if he storms off, he can walk home or whatever.  i'll have the keys and the house keys.  H's parents will have the baby and Lucy will be in school.  

But i'm worried about how to start the conversation.  i mean, its basically like an intervention, right?  but i dont want to just blurt it out, but do i wait til after we order?  argh i'm nervous.

also, i have to talk to his parents first.  but i figured out my in with them- i need a paper from them so i'll go pick it up.  

i know im doing the right thing.  but this shit is hard.  any suggestions or encouragement is very much appreciated!

[macmars45]

GL; you are brave & you can do this!

[rosiebear]

I know this is hard. Your plan sounds good to me: kids safe and secure, public place, your transportation to and from. All good.

I don't know if you need to decide now whether to plunge in or wait until you order. I have faith in you that you'll get a feel for that in the moment. The old "H, we have to talk" is always a reliable opener.

Then say your piece. You know it's all true and it's been a long long time coming. He knows it's true, too. ❤❤

[WOUNDTIGHT]

Are you able to ask your therapist advice about how to do this? Best of luck to you!

[nicanmatt]

No advice, just well wishes. I hope it all goes really well!
Can you trust his parents not to tell him about it in advance?? Can you be sure that they only allow you to pick up the baby after, just in case??

[ProfessorArtNerd]

Mar 7, 2017 15:18:57 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

What is the outcome you're hoping for? That can help guide how you approach the convo.

Sorry, more info: like, at the end of this conversation for you to feel like it was successful, what needs to happen? What action steps will he agree to take, what does the plan forward look like? Focus on the concrete ("for us to stay married, you need to X, Y, Z and we need to begin couples counseling") vs. just telling him why you're upset or focusing on your feelings.

Oh yeah yeah, I'm sorry. I'm diing this to be able to say I tried. It's way past time for an ultimatum: you need to be on a regular shift and begin to work on your depression and anger issues or you're out.

[ProfessorArtNerd]

Mar 7, 2017 15:25:04 GMT -5 nicanmatt said:

No advice, just well wishes. I hope it all goes really well!
Can you trust his parents not to tell him about it in advance?? Can you be sure that they only allow you to pick up the baby after, just in case??

They won't say anything. And he can't possibly pick the baby up- I kid you not, his car doesn't have a car seat

[kicks]

Are you doing it in public because you are scared for your safety? If that's the case, then go for it.

But if you're not scared for your safety, then I would talk to him at home. In general I think bad news should be delivered in private.

But overall the best strategy as far as what to say is to just rip off the bandaid. Tell him you have something important to say and then tell him what your plans are and the timeline. Do your best not to get in to the blame game.
If you need to write it down, then do that.

That's how I approached it with my ex and it worked out well because he was clear where I stood and there were no questions about me telling him I wanted a divorce.

[momof2]

If possible, I would work hard to be as unemotional as possible. I would likely say:

"Our current family situation is intolerable and your behavior is unacceptable. I am no longer going to live this way. You need to apply to work the day shift by X date. You need an appointment with a therapist scheduled by Friday of next week to discuss anger management and depression. You need a doctor's appointment by Wednesday to see what medication you can try for depression. If this is not all done, you need to leave the house by March 20th."

And then honestly, I would not talk about much else. If he tries to get into other stuff, I would say "I've laid out what must be done for us to continue to live together and stay married. If this doesn't work for you, let's start planning our divorce." and "I am not going to give you examples of what doesn't work for me, I've told you my terms."

If he tries to act shocked, I would simply say, "I have been telling you for a long time how unhappy I am. It is time for us to end this if you cannot meet my terms."

You are at the point of this being a business negotiation. I realize it may not feel like that, but this is where I would be.

ETA - And i would leave him at the diner within about 10 minutes of this discussion starting.  You don't need a long talk here.

[ProfessorArtNerd]

Mar 7, 2017 15:31:12 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Mar 7, 2017 15:25:12 GMT -5 ProfessorArtNerd said:

Oh yeah yeah, I'm sorry. I'm diing this to be able to say I tried. It's way past time for an ultimatum: you need to be on a regular shift and begin to work on your depression and anger issues or you're out.

I would make everything as specific and concrete as possible. 

He needs to be on a regular shift by when? What does "beginning to work on depression and anger issues" mean to you? I would tell him what exactly you expect and his timeline for completing it. You don't want to go back and forth with him later over what "working on his issues" means or have him say he "working on it" re: moving to day shift, kwim?

Es, that's where I'm stuck- I don't know what's reasonable I. Terms of getting on a day shift. The therapy/med combo he gets 4 weeks

I'm under no impression that this'll work, btw. Just want to be able to say I tried

[FastHands]

Mar 7, 2017 15:31:12 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Mar 7, 2017 15:25:12 GMT -5 ProfessorArtNerd said:

Oh yeah yeah, I'm sorry. I'm diing this to be able to say I tried. It's way past time for an ultimatum: you need to be on a regular shift and begin to work on your depression and anger issues or you're out.

I would make everything as specific and concrete as possible. 

He needs to be on a regular shift by when? What does "beginning to work on depression and anger issues" mean to you? I would tell him what exactly you expect and his timeline for completing it. You don't want to go back and forth with him later over what "working on his issues" means or have him say he "working on it" re: moving to day shift, kwim?

That was my thought, too. The steps need to be concrete and measurable. And/or, would you consider istead saying "I want you to move out until you get a day shift job and can prove to me that you are working on your depression/anger issues"?

[AutumnRose25]

How much control does he himself have over changing his work hours?

I don't think it's unreasonable to request he changes to more family friendly shifts.

But, I'm not sure it is actually realistic to demand that it happens on a specific timeframe if other people control scheduling and there are other employees that would have to be moved?

[momof2]

And really, you know there is a less than 10% chance he will do this. So, I would be ready to say, "Ok, let's plan a second talk to discuss the terms of our divorce and how we might co-parent."

[cuddlyevil]

ITA with the others.

If you think you'll get sidetracked, write out a script for what you want to say. That way, if he flies off the handle, or you get discombobulated, you can stay on message. You're going to need to be as calm and direct as possible.

Can you have a friend with you (maybe waiting in the car)?

[mel]

My only advice is to write down your talking points and stick with them. Maybe start the conversation with "I have some very important things I need to tell you, and I really need you to be silent while I'm talking so I can say everything I need to say." He's most likely going to try and interject and add his thoughts while you're talking, but I'd just keep right on and ignore him until you're done. Don't let him make you lose track of what you want to say.

Hugs. You are so strong and you can do this!

[AutumnRose25]

Also WRT therapy and meds timeframe, what is the specific requirement?

If he has an intake appointment booked based on therapist availability does that "count"?

When I looked for my therapist, many didn't have appointments available working a few weeks and I had to schedule more than a month out for ones that seems like a good match.

And a therapist may not immediately jump to meds until they have had time to meet with him and assess his needs.

Neither of these are things he can control.

If you are just doing it to say you've "had the talk" then I'm not sure the point of setting specific requests on him?

You can lay it out to him so you can say you told him without adding everything else into it.

Especially if him actually taking the steps won't be meaningful anyway if you've already decided you don't care to work on things long term?

[jreeds]

I would write down some key things you want to say. That way if he tries to deflect or aim the conversation another way you can stay on track.

ETA: I see that's been covered. Have you thought about how he may react? Prepared for a few different scenarios? Like, if he flat out refuses, what will be your response? This way, hopefully he doesn't catch you off guard.

[glynn]

Hugs, this is tough but you owe it to yourself and kids to do it.

[momof2]

Honestly, the more I think about this, I realize that I would want this conversation to last about 2 minutes. I also would want it in writing so he can look at it. I would probably create a 4 point powerpoint chart that said:

1. You must see a doctor within 2 weeks to get a depression screening and appropriate meds
2. You must have a therapist appointment scheduled before March 27th.
3. You must apply for a day shift position by March 15th.
4. If any deadline is not met, you must move out within 5 days of that deadline

I would say what I suggested earlier, "this is intolerable, and I cannot live like this. here is what you must do." I would read him the 4 points, hand them to him and say, "I realize you need some time to process this. I am going to leave while you have dinner. Please text me confirmation that you plan to do these things or that you want to schedule a second meeting to discuss the terms of our divorce."

But again, I am ALL BUSINESS once I get to the point that I think you are at.

[hocus2]

I'll be honest I'm not sure the ultimatum makes sense. You don't think it will work so why no just tell you want to divorce? If he says no maybe you can outline what would have to happen and when it would happen by to reconsider. It just seems forced to do it this way. You're planning on leaving so just be honest about it. Why is is so important for you to have "tried"?

[AutumnRose25]

Mar 7, 2017 15:45:21 GMT -5 momof2 said:

Honestly, the more I think about this, I realize that I would want this conversation to last about 2 minutes. I also would want it in writing so he can look at it. I would probably create a 4 point powerpoint chart that said:

1. You must see a doctor within 2 weeks to get a depression screening and appropriate meds
2. You must have a therapist appointment scheduled before March 27th.
3. You must apply for a day shift position by March 15th.
4. If any deadline is not met, you must move out within 5 days of that deadline

I would say what I suggested earlier, "this is intolerable, and I cannot live like this. here is what you must do." I would read him the 4 points, hand them to him and say, "I realize you need some time to process this. I am going to leave while you have dinner. Please text me confirmation that you plan to do these things or that you want to schedule a second meeting to discuss the terms of our divorce."

But again, I am ALL BUSINESS once I get to the point that I think you are at.

What's the point of giving what are frankly unrealistic deadlines like this, especially in regards to the medical stuff?

Why not just say you want a divorce without adding in more fuel to the drama fire.

Especially since she will have to co-parent with him forever?

I'm not defending his past actions at all, but setting someone up to fail in this situation makes zero sense. What's the purpose?

[Deleted]

I really wouldn't do it this at a diner. All those "you" statements are an ultimatum and I feel like you're setting yourself up for failure. Tell him "I am unhappy" and "I need to feel safe and to keep my children safe."  I would make a couples therapy appointment and tell him it's on X date and X time and if he is there you assume he wants to work on helping you achieve those goals and if not, you will be seeking a divorce/separation. I'm afraid unless you lead with the things you will be doing he will just continue to make excuses for why his situation can't change (didn't he say he couldn't take the other job because there would be no one to take his current shift? etc.).

[doglove]

Mar 7, 2017 15:54:49 GMT -5 hocus2 said:

Why is is so important for you to have "tried"?

Sometimes you just need to be able to say you tried and exhausted all efforts before you are ready to leave. At least then she won't wonder if she hadn't said it, would he have done the work? He probably won't, but at least she'll know for sure and can make that decision with no regrets. 

[FastHands]

Mar 7, 2017 15:58:54 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

Mar 7, 2017 15:45:21 GMT -5 momof2 said:

Honestly, the more I think about this, I realize that I would want this conversation to last about 2 minutes. I also would want it in writing so he can look at it. I would probably create a 4 point powerpoint chart that said:

1. You must see a doctor within 2 weeks to get a depression screening and appropriate meds
2. You must have a therapist appointment scheduled before March 27th.
3. You must apply for a day shift position by March 15th.
4. If any deadline is not met, you must move out within 5 days of that deadline

I would say what I suggested earlier, "this is intolerable, and I cannot live like this. here is what you must do." I would read him the 4 points, hand them to him and say, "I realize you need some time to process this. I am going to leave while you have dinner. Please text me confirmation that you plan to do these things or that you want to schedule a second meeting to discuss the terms of our divorce."

But again, I am ALL BUSINESS once I get to the point that I think you are at.

What's the point of giving what are frankly unrealistic deadlines like this, especially in regards to the medical stuff?

Why not just say you want a divorce without adding in more fuel to the drama fire.

Especially since she will have to co-parent with him forever?

I'm not defending his past actions at all, but setting someone up to fail in this situation makes zero sense. What's the purpose?

I don't think you're 100% wrong, but you're being unfair, too. Being willing to give him one last chance to straighten up has nothing to do with a "drama fire," ffs.

I DO think the timelines are unrealistic and also open to a lot of "I'M *TRYING!* GOSH! WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?" BS.

Prof, I really rhink you should consider saying that you are done living this way and he should move (or you move, idk your plan). If he seems like he wants to make changes, then let him do them out of your space. And if, say, 2-3 months go by and you realize how fucking easy life is without him and how he still hasn't made progress, then you file.

[jigsy]

When I had THE TALK with XH, we did it at a diner too. I personally had written out my thoughts/feelings because I wanted to make sure that I was able to say what needed to be said, and I am TERRIBLE with talking about emotions/feelings, so having it written was a good thing. I didn't read it off or anything, but I was prepared to give it to him at the end.

I ended up not because our talk went like this:
Me: The way our relationship is right now just isn't working for me. I need some changes to happen if we are going to stay married
XH: I don't want to be married anymore, so we should talk about the separation process.
Me: Mentally throws out all the things I would need for it to work because it was a moot point now.

My XH wasn't willing to do therapy or anything, so it was a quick jump from bringing it up to actual divorce talk.

So, based on my experience, I would also say think about what you need to do if he says he isn't willing to try - what is the time frame you want for separation. Do you need him out that day? Week? Month? Is there a place he can sleep away from you if you don't need him out right away?

[MixedBerryJam]

Mar 7, 2017 15:31:12 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Mar 7, 2017 15:25:12 GMT -5 ProfessorArtNerd said:

Oh yeah yeah, I'm sorry. I'm diing this to be able to say I tried. It's way past time for an ultimatum: you need to be on a regular shift and begin to work on your depression and anger issues or you're out.

I would make everything as specific and concrete as possible. 

He needs to be on a regular shift by when? What does "beginning to work on depression and anger issues" mean to you? I would tell him what exactly you expect and his timeline for completing it. You don't want to go back and forth with him later over what "working on his issues" means or have him say he "working on it" re: moving to day shift, kwim?

This is all good advice. Making the goals measurable and verifiable is probably the most important part. Just like working with a toddler, you can't send them into the playroom with the instruction, "Clean it up." You have to tell them to put all the legos in the lego bin, the books on the bookshelf or else you end up with everything crammed under the couch and everyone is still unhappy. You need to be on the regular shift by date x. You need to have begun therapy by day y.  And you need " ... or you have to move out." as part of the conversation so he can't claim you're "forcing" him into this. Good luck!

[calamity]

Hugs to you prof, I think people bring up some good points here.

You really need to figure out where you are in your heart and then go from there. Is there really a chance in saving this? Is he capable of change?

Do you have time for a therapy session before the talk?

Sending so many good thoughts to you

[ProfessorArtNerd]

Ok to answer the questions- it's important to me that he gets his anger in check in order to coparent well, together or not. That is non negotiable. And also, I've been with him since I was 16. This is huge to me, I can't imagine just saying, dude, out. That's not me

I don't know, a month to have an appointment for therapy and our PCP for antidepressants doesn't seem impossible to me. I had all of this within a week for myself and for Lucy.

As for his work, Jenny was right that he was offered more money on the second shift. I'd be happy with that. He didn't act on it and that particular position was filled. He could do many other jobs at his place and to hear him, they'd fall all over themselves to keep him. I don't know what to believe about all that.

What did I miss?

[momof2]

Mar 7, 2017 16:05:35 GMT -5 FastHands said:

Mar 7, 2017 15:58:54 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

What's the point of giving what are frankly unrealistic deadlines like this, especially in regards to the medical stuff?

Why not just say you want a divorce without adding in more fuel to the drama fire.

Especially since she will have to co-parent with him forever?

I'm not defending his past actions at all, but setting someone up to fail in this situation makes zero sense. What's the purpose?

I don't think you're 100% wrong, but you're being unfair, too. Being willing to give him one last chance to straighten up has nothing to do with a "drama fire," ffs.

I DO think the timelines are unrealistic and also open to a lot of "I'M *TRYING!* GOSH! WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?" BS.

Prof, I really rhink you should consider saying that you are done living this way and he should move (or you move, idk your plan). If he seems like he wants to make changes, then let him do them out of your space. And if, say, 2-3 months go by and you realize how fucking easy life is without him and how he still hasn't made progress, then you file.

To be clear, I wasn't saying my dates where the right ones.  I thought I was sort of within the timeline that she suggested.  I'm certain that I could get in to see my primary care doctor to discuss a depression screening within 1 week.  If that isn't realistic here, then one would pick different dates.

But really, I think this is just the OP trying to be able to say she gave him one last shot to get it together.  I'm not sure this one last shot has to be particularly reasonable.  This dude has been unreasonable for years.  The real question for OP is "is this just a test you know he will fail and that you are happy he will fail?" or "do you really think this situation is still salvageable?"  I thought it was the former.  If it is the latter, then there are likely more constructive approaches (although I am 99% sure they won't succeed either).

ETA - Happy to fail is probably the wrong word.  "But are you ready for him to fail" might be better wording.

[Que?]

Is your marriage salvageable? If you believe it is in some way, then I think you're good to proceed as you've outlined here, with a timeline of expectations for him and clear consequences for not following through. If you don't believe it can be saved, I still think all of the things you're asking are reasonable as a co parent.

This needs to be a short, direct conversation, otherwise you open it up for him to turn it around, and ask you what you're working on and give you ultimatums in return. you also need to be totally sure that you follow through or you lose this opportunity to really check him with reality.

Good luck. ❤️❤️