Thoughts on Minimalist footwear?

[wawa]

Anybody a minimalist shoe person?  Are you a zero drop person for running?  Zero drop AND minimal padding?  All running or just some?  What about casual shoes?

I don't think we have any toe shoe people here, do we?  or people who run in like....sandals?  Literal barefooters?

And the ortho I saw for my knee last year apparently disagrees with the sports podiatrist (In the same damn sports medicine practice!) I saw for my foot years ago on appropriate levels of arch support, the use of orthotics, etc so this does not appear to be settled science.  I'm just curious where all y'all land on it. 

If it's not your thing, have you tried any aspect of it?  Would you?  Do you think it's stupid or just not for you?

I realized I have a probably unfair kneejerk you don't know my lyfe type reaction to this topic based on a thread on CEP, and it made me wonder where you guys all land. 

[wambam]

I totally understand and agree that we lose strength in the muscles of our feet by wearing shoes and that wearing shoes perpetuates a cycle in which we need to wear shoes, because we don’t have the foot strength to be barefoot. That makes sense to me. What doesn’t make sense to me is WHY you’d *want* to be barefoot? What’s the appeal? Why would I spend months training myself not to wear shoes? I mean, I guess it would save money?

Also, I can open a bottle of wine without a corkscrew. But goddamn, it’s a lot easier if I just use the tool.

In summary: I think barefoot is woo.

[cinco]

It took me a couple months to adjust from a 12mm drop to a 10mm drop (both with orthotics), so I don't think minimalist will ever happen. I have tried on a couple minimalist and never make it more than a quarter mile. I'm sure they work for some people, but I am not on that train.

[sadlebred]

I use minimalist shoes for daily life. Ya'll know I'm not a runner. Two knee surgeries and various injuries have left my legs/knees a bit unstable or at least unhappy when I wear shoes with support, heels (ie dress/work shoes), etc. My feet are happiest in shoes with no arch support, as flat as possible, and as little padding as is practical.

For running errands/daily life/stuff, I've gone back to Vans Lo Atwood shoe. I have it in several colors. Not truly minimalist, but there is no support in the shoe & it's light. I can wear them year-round. As a bonus, they are only $40. I also love Lems www.lemsshoes.com. Their shoes are very light-weight and so comfortable after you get used to the feeling of being flat-footed. Their running shoes are a bit too "airy" to wear in winter for errands/daily stuff; my feet freeze in them (see Vans above). My next pair of dress shoes for work will be Lems when the ones I have wear out.

Luckily, I can wear a wide range of flats and boots. Small heels in boots (think chunky and low like come on true English equestrian/horse boots--not "equestrian-inspired" fashion boots) don't bother me if I wear them only for a few hours. Borns have cute boots with low heels. I can wear some Frye boots. I also wear Ariat's equestrian boots as casual ones. The heel is a bit higher than the Borns but does not seem to bother me. Maybe because I grew up wearing Ariat boots to the barn 7 days/week??

[wawa]

Aug 14, 2017 10:10:09 GMT -5 sadlebred said:

I use minimalist shoes for daily life. Ya'll know I'm not a runner. Two knee surgeries and various injuries have left my legs/knees a bit unstable or at least unhappy when I wear shoes with support, heels (ie dress/work shoes), etc. My feet are happiest in shoes with no arch support, as flat as possible, and as little padding as is practical.

For running errands/daily life/stuff, I've gone back to Vans Lo Atwood shoe. I have it in several colors. Not truly minimalist, but there is no support in the shoe & it's light. I can wear them year-round. As a bonus, they are only $40. I also love Lems www.lemsshoes.com. Their shoes are very light-weight and so comfortable after you get used to the feeling of being flat-footed. Their running shoes are a bit too "airy" to wear in winter for errands/daily stuff; my feet freeze in them (see Vans above). My next pair of dress shoes for work will be Lems when the ones I have wear out.

Luckily, I can wear a wide range of flats and boots. Small heels in boots (think chunky and low like come on true English equestrian/horse boots--not "equestrian-inspired" fashion boots) don't bother me if I wear them only for a few hours. Borns have cute boots with low heels. I can wear some Frye boots. I also wear Ariat's equestrian boots as casual ones. The heel is a bit higher than the Borns but does not seem to bother me. Maybe because I grew up wearing Ariat boots to the barn 7 days/week??

fascinating.  So what's your foot situation?  High arch?  Flat foot?  somewhere in between?

Also LOLs to the Ariats.  I still have my paddock boots kicking around somewhere.  I should clean them up and just start wearing them around.  They're comfy.

[wawa]

Aug 14, 2017 9:53:21 GMT -5 wambam said:

I totally understand and agree that we lose strength in the muscles of our feet by wearing shoes and that wearing shoes perpetuates a cycle in which we need to wear shoes, because we don’t have the foot strength to be barefoot. That makes sense to me. What doesn’t make sense to me is WHY you’d *want* to be barefoot? What’s the appeal? Why would I spend months training myself not to wear shoes? I mean, I guess it would save money?

Also, I can open a bottle of wine without a corkscrew. But goddamn, it’s a lot easier if I just use the tool.

In summary: I think barefoot is woo.

Some moments I'm here.  Some moments I'm like, "well, but maybe?" 
This is driven by the fact that I do actually prefer to where as little shoe as possible in the summer casually.  Like, we had a family bbq a few weekends ago and MH and I and both kids were just barefoot the whole time.  It did not occur to any of us to put shoes on, and it was only brought to my attention that this was unusual when H's cousin was yelling at her kid to put his shoes BACK on and he was like, "SHORTI AND SIZZLI DON'T HAVE SHOES ON!!" and then I glanced at their feet, and then my feet and was like..."oh.  well.  Yeah."

But then winter.  And work.  And walking places that are not my house and backyard.  So I wear shoes.  But I'm trying to be nicer to my feet when I do wear said shoes (particularly my work shoes, which need to be dressy-adjacent and worn all damn day) and can't figure out what is actually best.  I've been trending toward high support, but...I dunno.  Add in that I'd like them to be cute and this all feels futile anyway. 

[jane6672]

I got into barefoot running in college, it was the first time I was able to run without hip/knee pain. Granted, I have no idea if I could have solved that with fancy regular shoes and a running coach, etc., but barefoot was free and it worked for me.

I switched to Merrell minimalist shoes a few months into that for practical reasons, and have been happy with them.

The upside of Merrells is they last forever. The downside is my shoe has always been replaced with a newer version by the time it wears out. RIP, original Merrell Pace Glove, and Pace Glove 2. Recently got the Vapor Glove 2 because I did *not* like the Pace Glove 3, and have been happy with the Vapor Glove.

I happily go barefoot around the house/yard. For daily wear, I'm in flat things (rarely wear heels), and a bit of cushion is nice if I'm doing a lot of walking, but I don't need arch support.

[jane6672]

sadlebred I'm drooling over the Lem's Boulder Boots now.

[keweenawlove]

I have a lot of thoughts on this and just got back from a biomechanics conference that had a few sessions on this. Short answer is there's not an accepted scientific answer as to what is best. The best theory I've hear is maybe we need to run in a variety of shoes (low support one day to work some of your arch support muscles, higher support one the next day to give them a break). Not that it's economically feasible in all cases but with the miles we put on, it makes sense to me to switch things up. 

I used to completely roll my eyes at the idea of barefoot running and that I heard a talk similar to this one that makes some good points for barefoot/minimalist. She's the direction of the National Running Center at Harvard so pretty legit.
runnersconnect.net/running-interviews/footwear-outgrown-feet-evidence-behind-barefoot-running-dr-irene-davis

My biggest takeaway from this is the heel-strike pattern encouraged by most footwear does lead to decreased shock absorption by encouraging mid to forefoot striking is a good thing. Barefoot has the advantage because you correct a heel strike really fast but that's not to say you can train yourself not to in shoes. I've tried various levels of cushioning/drop heights down to the Altra zero drops. I could never get adjusted to the zero drop and have settled on a moderate support shoe as opposed to my previous high stability shoe. I've also been able getting a pretty consistent mid-foot strike and making a point to add in strengthening exercises for my foot muscles.  

signed,
Not a clinician but a PhD focused on biomechanics

[sadlebred]

Aug 14, 2017 10:18:07 GMT -5 wawa said:

Aug 14, 2017 10:10:09 GMT -5 sadlebred said:

I use minimalist shoes for daily life. Ya'll know I'm not a runner. Two knee surgeries and various injuries have left my legs/knees a bit unstable or at least unhappy when I wear shoes with support, heels (ie dress/work shoes), etc. My feet are happiest in shoes with no arch support, as flat as possible, and as little padding as is practical.

fascinating.  So what's your foot situation?  High arch?  Flat foot?  somewhere in between?

Also LOLs to the Ariats.  I still have my paddock boots kicking around somewhere.  I should clean them up and just start wearing them around.  They're comfy.

Bio-mechanically, I mildly overprotonate when I used to run before knee surgeries. I have fairly "normal" feet all around according to an old podiatrist and my physiotherapist (physical therapist)-no abnormally high arches or anything. It's really my knees for the reasons I mentioned above. I feel unstable in heels and shoes that have "stacked" or "high" padding like most running shoes. My feet and knees are much happier in flat shoes (ie no high arches, minimal padding, etc). On the rare occasion I put on heels, my knees and back hurt for a day afterwards; I no longer subject myself to that. 

Paddock boots look really cute with skirts or leggings! I'll even occasionally wear my tall boots out (yep, real Ariats I've ridden horses in) and ask where I got my "lovely equestrian-inspired" boots or "are those Brand-X?". They are shocked when I tell them that they are really for riding horses. Sigh--I don't ride much anymore. 

[aurora]

Thanks for inviting me here from the CEP post, wawa.

First of all, I don't actually have an agenda here so I have no problem whatsoever if people want high padding or custom orthotics or whatever. I understand that everyone's feet (legs, etc.) are different.

I have been running for 25+ years and used to go with the standard padded shoe with plenty of arch support. In college, I got a stupid injury (kicked a soccer ball right into a wall) that knocked my big toe and associated bones a bit out of alignment. My doctor at the time said the only real way to fix it was surgery, but that I didn't need surgery unless it bothered me. I ran for years through my 20s without any major issues (including my 1st marathon), but as I started to get older I started to notice more hip and knee pain as well as the foot. I went to my doctor and got some prescription orthotics, which unquestionably helped when I wore them. I also had some non-prescription ones I used in my general winter shoes, but of course it's hard to put that kind of thing in a sandal for summer.

The barefoot running craze hit, and I thought it was interesting. Why not try it? In the long run, my goal was to put off surgery and be able to walk and run without pain. If I could do something to strengthen my feet and reduce pain that didn't require surgery, what would it hurt?

I started with absurdly short runs - 0.25 miles around my block, literally barefoot. Over ~6 months, I built myself up to my regular running distances of 3-6 miles, using Five Fingers occasionally but more often minimalist shoes with a light but stiff foot plate because I prefer to run on trails and don't like getting poked with sharp rocks. All of my joint pain - foot, knee, hip - went away, and I found all of a sudden I could walk around in sandals with no support all day without pain, too.

I decided to do another marathon, and thought to myself "Gosh, minimalist shoes are fine for 3-6 miles, but I'll probably hurt myself if I try to train for an actual marathon in them." So, I rotated back into a pair of regular padded running shoes for a short (~2 mile) run to get the feel of them again. My arches hurt like crazy by about 1 mile, and I ended up having to take off the shoes and walk home barefoot. I put those shoes away, trained for and ran the (trail) marathon in the minimalist with no issues.

At this point, I'm sold for myself. My toe is still out of alignment, so maybe I'll need surgery some day, but I can wear shoes that I want for exercise and regular life without pain, and the change happened when I started barefoot running, so this seems to be what works for me.

[aurora]

Aug 14, 2017 9:53:21 GMT -5 wambam said:

I totally understand and agree that we lose strength in the muscles of our feet by wearing shoes and that wearing shoes perpetuates a cycle in which we need to wear shoes, because we don’t have the foot strength to be barefoot. That makes sense to me. What doesn’t make sense to me is WHY you’d *want* to be barefoot? What’s the appeal? Why would I spend months training myself not to wear shoes? I mean, I guess it would save money?

Also, I can open a bottle of wine without a corkscrew. But goddamn, it’s a lot easier if I just use the tool.

In summary: I think barefoot is woo.

To me, it was to eliminate the pain I was experiencing.

I do admit, though, being able to run in the same pair of shoes for a couple of years does save money and that's a nice perk.

[aurora]

I forgot to add to my OP: I have had both stress fractures and plantar fasciitis over the course of my running history, both when I was wearing padded running shoes, so I'm no stranger to overuse injuries.

[wawa]

Aug 14, 2017 11:43:02 GMT -5 aurora said:

Thanks for inviting me here from the CEP post, wawa .

First of all, I don't actually have an agenda here so I have no problem whatsoever if people want high padding or custom orthotics or whatever. I understand that everyone's feet (legs, etc.) are different.

I have been running for 25+ years and used to go with the standard padded shoe with plenty of arch support. In college, I got a stupid injury (kicked a soccer ball right into a wall) that knocked my big toe and associated bones a bit out of alignment. My doctor at the time said the only real way to fix it was surgery, but that I didn't need surgery unless it bothered me. I ran for years through my 20s without any major issues (including my 1st marathon), but as I started to get older I started to notice more hip and knee pain as well as the foot. I went to my doctor and got some prescription orthotics, which unquestionably helped when I wore them. I also had some non-prescription ones I used in my general winter shoes, but of course it's hard to put that kind of thing in a sandal for summer.

The barefoot running craze hit, and I thought it was interesting. Why not try it? In the long run, my goal was to put off surgery and be able to walk and run without pain. If I could do something to strengthen my feet and reduce pain that didn't require surgery, what would it hurt?

I started with absurdly short runs - 0.25 miles around my block, literally barefoot. Over ~6 months, I built myself up to my regular running distances of 3-6 miles, using Five Fingers occasionally but more often minimalist shoes with a light but stiff foot plate because I prefer to run on trails and don't like getting poked with sharp rocks. All of my joint pain - foot, knee, hip - went away, and I found all of a sudden I could walk around in sandals with no support all day without pain, too.

I decided to do another marathon, and thought to myself "Gosh, minimalist shoes are fine for 3-6 miles, but I'll probably hurt myself if I try to train for an actual marathon in them." So, I rotated back into a pair of regular padded running shoes for a short (~2 mile) run to get the feel of them again. My arches hurt like crazy by about 1 mile, and I ended up having to take off the shoes and walk home barefoot. I put those shoes away, trained for and ran the (trail) marathon in the minimalist with no issues.

At this point, I'm sold for myself. My toe is still out of alignment, so maybe I'll need surgery some day, but I can wear shoes that I want for exercise and regular life without pain, and the change happened when I started barefoot running, so this seems to be what works for me.

Interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  I apologize for the sorta....agenda assigning reaction I had.  I've found people who are into barefoot running to be like, "barefoot people" (like crossfit people.) and kinda weird about it, but it's not fair to assume that's your approach.  I was writing snarky responses in my head and realized I was being the weirdo.

I'm kinda thinking about my H here though - he's been struggling lately since I made him start triathlons with me in that he can't run more than once MAYBE twice a week without having some sort of lower leg pain.  (I have never gotten a totally clear answer on WHAT hurts.  It's not shin splints.  beyond that, no clue)  And it's worse if he's spent a lot of time wearing flip flops or being barefoot.  He HAAATES wearing shoes though.  So he's cranky about wandering around wearing sneakers in 90 degree heat.  I know flip flops are just...bad.  But maybe counter-intuitively he needs less time in substantial shoes??    worth thinking about anyway.

[wambam]

Aug 14, 2017 11:46:23 GMT -5 aurora said:

Aug 14, 2017 9:53:21 GMT -5 wambam said:

I totally understand and agree that we lose strength in the muscles of our feet by wearing shoes and that wearing shoes perpetuates a cycle in which we need to wear shoes, because we don’t have the foot strength to be barefoot. That makes sense to me. What doesn’t make sense to me is WHY you’d *want* to be barefoot? What’s the appeal? Why would I spend months training myself not to wear shoes? I mean, I guess it would save money?

Also, I can open a bottle of wine without a corkscrew. But goddamn, it’s a lot easier if I just use the tool.

In summary: I think barefoot is woo.

To me, it was to eliminate the pain I was experiencing.

I do admit, though, being able to run in the same pair of shoes for a couple of years does save money and that's a nice perk.

I don't begrudge anyone anecdotes. If it works for you and prevents injuries, DO IT!

[sadlebred]

aurora I'm intrigued. You can see my posts above for my reasons for going mostly-minimalist in every day life. What shoes do you you for trail running? I saw a few on Google.

[mrs.jacinthe]

I'm no longer a runner, but I wear merrell minimalist shoes for anything where I have to stand or be standingly-active (if that makes sense). When I ran, and now if I'm doing a lot of walking, I wear Mizunos, but for things like volunteering where I'll be standing up for long periods of time, the merrells are a much better choice. I find that minimalist shoes cause significantly less pain in my feet, no matter what surface I'm standing on. I've done 10-hour volunteering mega-shifts with no problems in the Merrells, but the one time I wore Mizunos, I had to take them off halfway through a 6 hour shift. They're great for forward momentum for me (which indicates to me that my stride is probably wonky and that's why I kept hurting myself running), but not so much for just regular foot support.

I have wide, fat feet with high arches and I'm most comfortable in Converse, flip-flops, or the merrells with no significant support or drop.

[laurack]

I got into it at one point years ago. I was a cross fitter at the time and wearing vibrams was all the rage. Unfortunately I sustained a stress fracture and while I know it was my own fault for not building up slowly enough etc. I'm still a little leery of the whole thing and have been wearing cushioned shoes

I feel I am injury prone ever since that happened too, probably because the recovery made all my body mechanics get screwed up?
but of course I'm also older so it's hard to say.

I have to say that prior to the vibrams and stress fracture I used to run in pretty minimal shoes anyway, they were these new balances that had a pretty thin sole compared to cushiony shoes. I never had an issue and I ran a marathon in those thin soles shoes so I regret the vibram running greatly. (While also realizing it may work great for many folks who are not me)

[labbie]

I'm a fan of doing whatever works! For me that's going barefoot around the house, wearing semi-custom orthotics in my stability running shoes, and a minimalist shoe for lifting/HIIT and other non-running workouts. I have extra bone/cartilage in my feet (navicular), fairly flat feet, and the beginnings of arthritis in my big toe. So when I found something that worked and allowed me to run without pain, I used it- and I'm not changing it until it stops working! So far it's been 3 years.

[Wines Not Whines]

I don't care what other people do. People's bodies are different, and I'm sure different people need different shoes. Personally, every sports doctor, ortho, podiatrist, and PT I've seen over the past 20 years has recommended a stability shoe for me. And the one time I went with neutral shoes, I got injured even though I was running very short distances. So I'll stick with my stability shoes for running.

I wear minimalist shoes for all other activities, including classes at the gym, lifting weights, walking around, and daily life. So my feet aren't in super structured shoes most of the time. I prefer to be barefoot when I'm at home.

[aurora]

Aug 14, 2017 12:59:15 GMT -5 sadlebred said:

aurora I'm intrigued. You can see my posts above for my reasons for going mostly-minimalist in every day life. What shoes do you you for trail running? I saw a few on Google.

I've had 3 pairs in the 7? (I can't remember exactly what year I started but around 2010) years, all from New Balance. I currently have these:

www.newbalance.com/pd/minimus-10v4-trail/WT10-V4.html?dwvar_WT10-V4_color=Outerspace_with_Bayside#color=Outerspace_with_Bayside

it actually has a tiny bit more cushion than my last 2 pairs but I was having trouble finding something with less at the time I bought.

[rondonalddo]

I like minimal shoes for lifting, but I wear stability shoes for running. Anyway, I think you can work on strengthening your feet and ankles and get some of the benefits without having to exercise in minimalist shoes. I have a Morton's neuroma in my left foot and doing my PT exercises (and that pinning-your-calf-with-your-other-leg-on-the-foam-roller move someone posted in here recently!) and hiking seems to help relieve symptoms.

[theoriginalbean]

My old running partner is a true barefoot runner. Personally, I have no desire to do that. I do run in zero drop shoes, though. Merrell Pace Gloves for short distances, and Altra One^2 for long.

[foundmylazybum]

I wear the newton distance which is 2mm drop and the Hoka Clayton which is 0mm drop for running. I have also worn 0 drop Merrills. They are all neutral shoes. I have been wearing the Newtons for a couple years now and before that I wore the Brooks Cadence which had 4mm drop. I like these shoes because they are all light and fast. I cannot. CANNOT stand high stability shoes that feel like bricks on my feet where you can't feel the road underneath you. That drives me insane.

I guess I'm not exactly sure what "minimalist" means? Like all these shoes are in the neutral category, so they don't have any stability posting (IE: plastic) in the center, and they really weigh less, break down quicker and have a lower profile that can transition easily to racing if need be. But they are still shoes lol. Like I wouldn't run in sandals or vibrams. Or bare feet (I mean strides on the grass haha). IMO that takes a lot of years to build up to--and for what? So I can feel grime and dirt underneath me? Please.






Shoes are only part of the equation of running--and realistically it's probably the smallest part that gets a lot of emphasis--more than it deserves because it *Seems* like it's an easy fix for injury--but it's not. Training and overtraining, Your biomechanics which are hard to change all play a larger role, as does strength. In order to do true barefoot running you really have to be a pretty experienced runner (think like the native people in Mexico) and you have to start slow--the people of Mexico didn't pick up running at age 32 after years of inactivity sitting on the couch. They had been 1) wearing those little sandals literally their whole lives and 2) running and kicking that little ball around since childhood lol.

I also kind of agree with wambam. Kenyan's and Ethiopians live in an environment where they don't always have access to shoes--but the minute they get shoes--THEY PUT THEM ON! It's not their lack of shoes that make them fast lol (and I'm not saying anyone here is arguing that), it's their total training regiment and perspective on running that makes them who they are as runners.