What kind of kid resource for this?

[shakinros]

I just got a call from DD's kindergarten teacher. Apparently DD was so disruptive in class today that they'd like to call the guidance counselor in to do an observation and recommend a course of action.

None of these issues are news to us, but in brief they are:
- not listening
- talking over others
- crying when she gets frustrated
- crying when she doesn't get her way
- refusing to participate at all if she doesn't get her way
- being told to do (or not do) something and directly disobeying. Not maliciously, but she sometimes just completely ignores that adults have authority.

K teacher says the first couple weeks she didn't think much of the crying - everything in K is so new that lots of kids have trouble adjusting. But today was very out of the norm, with DD distracting the other kids, being warned about talking out of turn, losing a privilege because of talking, then loud crying or hiding from the teacher for the last hour of class.

Kid didn't get a lot of sleep last night which probably exacerbated it. But in general, she is a very willful, self-directed, dramatic kid. Like, that's her personality. Frequently I love it. I was always such a people pleaser (still am!) that I love her give-no-fucks individuality. On the other hand, I don't want her to struggle in school, dislike it, and in turn, be disliked by the teachers and other kids.

I agreed to have the guidance counselor come observe class and requested a meeting after to discuss. Where else would you look for ideas to help this kid?

[2chatter]

There are a million therapists who will take your money for play therapy, behavior modification, personal enrichment - you name it. I'd start with the school counselor and ped running in parallel. Take the best of their recommendations.

There is a child that sounds like your DD in one of the kinder classes at DS' school - and I stared slack jawed because I had just never seen anything like it. I can totally see the appreciation of the individuality! But I really suck with kids so it was hard for me to handle and I escalated to the teacher because I lack the skills. I would suck at parenting a child with that personality - so you might look at resources for you, too. Like, I read Quiet to understand my introvert. Surely there's good reading for ODD or strong willed children (that regardless of what label
Fits or doesn't your DD - you will be able to relate and take
Something away from it). I'd feel
Like I needed a guidebook is my point!

[mommyatty]

DD's BFF sounds a lot like your DD, except add in violent outbursts when the crying doesn't work to get her way. School brought in a play therapist. Then her mom took her to a psychologist for evaluation and got a diagnosis of ADHD and social anxiety with some defiance in the mix for a little spice, I guess. The psychologist made suggestions for ways to better deal with the little girl, and her mom said it was life-changing. The teacher learned, for example, to whisper in her ear when she needed to correct her instead of calling her out in class, which made her social anxiety kick in which led to defiance which led to screaming fits which led to a trip to the office which led to a violent outburst.

So I recommend an evaluation with a therapist at least.

[shakinros]

That sounds about right mommyatty minus the violent outbursts. None of those. (Yet?) I would not be surprised to learn that DD's escalating meltdown today was fueled by correction in front of the other children - she's a total perfectionist.

I've been madly googling for books 2chatter. They're always my first go-to as well!

[shakinros]

All the child development blogs/child psych blogs I've read today have said a lot about validating feelings, correcting behavior, and neutral emotions from parents. Which, you know, every parenting book says. I wish DH had read one basically ever. I feel like this would go better if I wasn't the only one who had read anything about parenting.

[akafred]

Anxiety yes, ADHD maybe. I would get a private psych eval because school counselor can only do educational dx, not medical.

[traveltheworld]

Your daughter sounds a lot like my DS a year ago. He was strong-willed, defiant, and had melt downs frequently if he didn't get his way. We finally took him to get a full psych evaluation with a child psychologist. Turns out that his problem wasn't so much that he was incredibly strong-willed, but more because he had very high anxiety. The anxiety was what lead to a lot of the behaviours - essentially he needed to be in control of the situation, or else he gets too anxious and shuts down. We were surprised about that because we always thought that DS was strong-willed and just didn't care about what other people thought or wanted from him. We were also really surprised because DS had incredible language skills and was always very happy and verbal, so although we knew he had some anxiety, we thought it was well within the normal range and didn't think it was the primary driver of his behaviour.

We were given some techniques on how to work with him. He also did a few sessions with the child psychologist. But the most important element was that once we saw his problems as being anxiety-driven instead of strong-willed/perfectionist driven, it really changed our perspective and helped us deal with it much more effectively.

[traveltheworld]

Also wanted to add - I also feel like our evaluation process/result has been life-changing. Again, we always attributed DS's issues to strong-will and stubbornness. After all, we are talking about a child who frequently cried for 2+ hours as a baby/toddler if he didn't get his way. When the child psychologist first diagnosed him with anxiety, I was skeptical - he was such a happy kid and has always just been stubborn!! Are you telling me then that he had anxiety issues even as a baby/toddler? But once we accepted it and "treated" his anxiety, it made a world of difference. So I'd look into that.

[shakinros]

That's interesting traveltheworld. How did you find a child psychologist that worked for your DS?

Same question akafred. How did you find the person who works with your DD?

[freezorburn]

shakinros my kid has a whole different set of issues, but I think it would be good to look for a developmental psychologist who also has a lot of experience working in educational settings.

If you have a local children's hospital they might have a department or be able to give you a referral.

Check with your insurance to see if diagnosis of any kind is covered, and if they have a list of in-network providers.

Also if you are on FB you might be able to find local groups of special needs parents who can tell you the names of psychologists that they have worked with and who they might recommend. You might have to try several different combinations of keywords to find them, or find them through personal word of mouth. Groups like this are often closed or private.

[sunbutter]

Awe, the growing pains of kindergarten. Sounds like you and the teachers are approaching it the right way. Kindergarten is a huge transition and each kid has to feel out the boundaries and I'm glad that your school has the resources to have a guidance counselor come on and help the teacher out.
If I was in that situation with my DD (also in kindergarten), I would have lots of talks with her. Not accusatory but trying to figure out where she feels bored or challenged and reminding her that she has to be respectful of the kids around her.

[kimberlybb]

shakinros , I also have a strong willed DD. I just started reading You Can't Make Me but I Can Be Persuaded by Cynthia Tobias. I'm not that far into it but I have already picked up a few good strategies so far. The book does have religious overtones though if that makes a difference. I haven't read this yet but have heard good things:
www.amazon.com/Parenting-Child-Who-Intense-Emotions-ebook/dp/B004ZLVCXE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&refRID=16BTSWMVTGT8PYWBHY9B&ascsubtag=aduZSWqWht-n-9vceh23en--849301864&linkCode=sl1&tag=modparmeskid-20&linkId=3da754d57f606e2ac56937df929172f8

[jlaok]

I'd recommend having your DD evaluated by an Occupational Therapist. They'll be able to either rule out any issues or recommend a therapy/treatment plan that might help.

[traveltheworld]

We have a local school for gifted children where you'd need a full evaluation from a child psychologist as part of the application process. I asked the school which clinics they typically see on applications, called the few that were given, and went with the one we felt most comfortable with. When I called the clinics, I was very clear that we weren't looking for an IQ test for school admission, but rather a more comprehensive evaluation. The place we went to knew exactly what wI as talking about, so that gave me a lot of comfort.

[akafred]

That is a great plan, traveltheworld. I would make sure they have good experience with kids with anxiety.

[kbw]

A lot of these sound like my DS last year and at times this year. He's just started kindergarten and I do see some improvement with him. Some things we've noticed if he gets overtired it makes it worse and if there's a lot that has changed in his routine for the day it will. We've had to move his bedtime up since k can be so exhausting.

I would definitely let the guidance counselor come in. She may be able to give the teacher and you pointers on how to spot some of these things before they occur or stop them before they progress.

[akafred]

One other thing that hasn't been stated her. The brain goes through a major rewiring at around the 6th birthday give or take. This can cause emotional lability. It's not uncommon for 5 year olds to have more meltdowns than a 4 or 6 year old. Couple that with long school days, less exercise, more concentration and sitting still, and K can be a pretty big transition for a lot of kids.