October Scouts Check-in

[miranda]

It's October- so Scouts has probably started for most of us. My question is: what do your Pack/Troop campouts look like?

[miranda]

We have nearly 100 boys in our Pack. We usually get about half that at our Pack campouts, which are twice a year (Fall/Spring). We camp at one of the 4-5 Scout campgrounds surrounding the metro area. We'll either do BB Guns, rock climbing, or other outdoor activity. We require parents to come with their kid, and everyone sleeps in their own tent but we also rent a big cabin in case some kids get cold or it rains. We also cook in the cabin.

We camp just one night, so we're only there less than 24 hours.

[miranda]

Okay I also have a question. We had our first den meeting Friday night. I have 19 boys in my den this year. About half are very nice and obedient. When I put the scout sign up they are quiet. When I tell them what the activity is, they listen, and then they do it. About half of the other kids are openly defiant. They will look me in the eye and do the opposite of what I ask. They will go out of their way to create chaos, or try to get attention. I find myself yelling most of the time, which I hate. But they can't/won't listen, and then they complain that they don't know what's going, or they tell me that whatever we're doing is dumb.

I know I'm doing something wrong, but I can't figure out what. It is apparent that about half the boys simply do not respect me. They smirk at me and ignore me. I have several parents there helping, but they don't intervene when the kids are acting out. Even when it's their own kid acting out. Once it was so bad that DH got very loud and gave them a lecture about respect. That was the one meeting they actually quieted down and did the work.

Any advice? I've tried talking sticks, candy incentives, positive reinforcement. The positive reinforcement seems to work well, but I can only do it with one kid at a time. For example, there's one particularly squirrely kid who craves attention- I usually give him some sort of "job" as an assistant to me to keep him occupied.

[waverly]

Ok, so I just came back from ours. There were like 74 kids from Lions to Weebelos. Only one parent and the scout allowed. Some had two parents, but I am assuming they had 2 kids in scouts, I guess.

There were a lot of tents everywhere, kids running everywhere. We had some organization of things to do for the adventure. We had hot dogs, chili, smores- the kind in the ice cream cone, and cobbler. It was pretty cold out. In the morning, people were packing up, so I did too and just left. I am not a morning person and did not feel like sitting around and hanging out, and I think all they had for breakfast was something to drink and a granola bar. I hightailed it out of there. It went from 4pm to morning, and I left probably around 8 am when DS woke up. We did not get much sleep as it was loud, cold, and hard, and you know sleeping bags getting everywhere. I didn't have a wagon anymore, so I had to make sure everything fit in a back pack, duffle, rolling bag, and I had to bring camp chairs. I got about 4 hours of sleep. 

I don't know on the den meetings. I know we have a lot of kids maybe 22?, so they split it into 2 dens, so that could be an option if you have someone to lead the other den. We seem to have a lot of volunteers, so it works out well.

[CrazyLucky]

Oct 2, 2017 9:22:33 GMT -5 miranda said:

Okay I also have a question. We had our first den meeting Friday night. I have 19 boys in my den this year. About half are very nice and obedient. When I put the scout sign up they are quiet. When I tell them what the activity is, they listen, and then they do it. About half of the other kids are openly defiant. They will look me in the eye and do the opposite of what I ask. They will go out of their way to create chaos, or try to get attention. I find myself yelling most of the time, which I hate. But they can't/won't listen, and then they complain that they don't know what's going, or they tell me that whatever we're doing is dumb.

I know I'm doing something wrong, but I can't figure out what. It is apparent that about half the boys simply do not respect me. They smirk at me and ignore me. I have several parents there helping, but they don't intervene when the kids are acting out. Even when it's their own kid acting out. Once it was so bad that DH got very loud and gave them a lecture about respect. That was the one meeting they actually quieted down and did the work.

Any advice? I've tried talking sticks, candy incentives, positive reinforcement. The positive reinforcement seems to work well, but I can only do it with one kid at a time. For example, there's one particularly squirrely kid who craves attention- I usually give him some sort of "job" as an assistant to me to keep him occupied.

I'm not a parent of a child with special needs, so I'm not sure if my comments are welcome or relevant.  I did want to comment regarding your concern above.  What age are you leading?  DH was the den leader for tigers last year and is again for wolves (?, I think.  I keep confusing wolves and bears) this year.  His Pack has a rule that until they are Webelos, a parent/adult/guardian must accompany them to every scout event, including meetings.  I think this helps DH a lot.  Although his den is much smaller.  19 kids is a lot!  Can you split into two groups?  Would that help?

[miranda]

Oct 2, 2017 9:53:53 GMT -5 waverly said:

Ok, so I just came back from ours. There were like 74 kids from Lions to Weebelos. Only one parent and the scout allowed. Some had two parents, but I am assuming they had 2 kids in scouts, I guess.

There were a lot of tents everywhere, kids running everywhere. We had some organization of things to do for the adventure. We had hot dogs, chili, smores- the kind in the ice cream cone, and cobbler. It was pretty cold out. In the morning, people were packing up, so I did too and just left. I am not a morning person and did not feel like sitting around and hanging out, and I think all they had for breakfast was something to drink and a granola bar. I hightailed it out of there. It went from 4pm to morning, and I left probably around 8 am when DS woke up. We did not get much sleep as it was loud, cold, and hard, and you know sleeping bags getting every where. I didn't have a wagon anymore, so I had to make sure everything fit in a back pack, duffle, rolling bag, and I had to bring camp chairs.

I don't know on the den meetings. I know we have a lot of kids maybe 22?, so they split it into 2 dens, so that could be an option if you have someone to lead the other den. We seem to have a lot of volunteers, so it works out well.

Confession: I despise the campouts. Freezing cold hard surfaces. And in the morning they insist on making huge freaking breakfasts with pancakes and sausage and the whole damn thing and I just want to leave! Once we packed up and left at 4am, in the dark. I hadn't slept all night and was just dying to leave. At the recent REI garage sale I did buy us some legit cold-rated sleeping bags and cots, so maybe that'll help.

I can't find another den leader, otherwise I would totally split it up. The Bear den is similarly gigantic and the den leader just quit the pack because she was tired of trying to lead such an unruly bunch. I'd really rather not quit at this point.

[miranda]

CrazyLucky, I would love to split it, but can't find a leader, and it's discouraged. I mentioned it to the Pack leader and he said they'd prefer one den. No idea why. He's a putz and a terrible leader, so I think he just doesn't want the administrative headache.

Another one of my problems is organizing the parents. To be fair, they are all willing to help. When we meet inside though, I only have room for a couple parents. And while they'll help the kids, they never speak up or discipline. It's totally awkward. I feel like I have an audience watching me fail! On the other hand, there's another lady who will say things like "why aren't they listening to you? They are supposed to listen!" Once she actually googled "how to make scouts listen to you" and stuck her phone in my face and suggested I try the same. (She wasn't being bitchy, she really thought she was helping me.) My response was basically, if you think you can do it, please do!

[waverly]

I will say, and I have only been to 2 meetings and a camp out. But the kids were in a separate room for the meeting, and were taken down the field for an adventure, so I wasn't near them to discipline. Once I was done with the meeting, I went to the hallway where the kids were and pitched in. I am a pitching in kind of person, so I don't know if they wanted me there or not, but I think it went more smoothly with me helping my kids.

At the camp out, parents were similarly hands off, but my friend and I would intervene. I think the ones with older kids were more hands off.

ETA- miranda, if I could have left without anyone noticing immediately after the campfire that would have been my choice.  Having camped way too much as a kid and way too many sleepovers, I am not mostly not for them at all anymore (except girls weekends).  Although it was good for DS to camp since he was afraid, and he conquered his fears. 

[orval]

Many of our parents are hands off as well. We require Tigers and Lions to have a parent with them. Some older kids just get dropped off. My dh was doing an activity at our first meeting and nearly stopped since no one would listen.
We were under the impression that it is a Scouting rule if you have more than 10 scouts in a den, you need to split.

We have three camp outs a year. The first is in two weeks and is just Tigers, Wolves and Bears (Lions if they want). It is run by our council. They will have to cook dinner one night and two breakfasts. Fri evening, Sat and Sun.

Webloree is the same format at the end of Oct., just Webelos and AOL's.

We also go to the Catholic Camporee in the spring. Similar format, all scouts.

We have our third meeting this Sun and I get to kickoff popcorn.

[orval]

Oct 2, 2017 10:16:28 GMT -5 miranda said:

CrazyLucky , I would love to split it, but can't find a leader, and it's discouraged. I mentioned it to the Pack leader and he said they'd prefer one den. No idea why. He's a putz and a terrible leader, so I think he just doesn't want the administrative headache.

Another one of my problems is organizing the parents. To be fair, they are all willing to help. When we meet inside though, I only have room for a couple parents. And while they'll help the kids, they never speak up or discipline. It's totally awkward. I feel like I have an audience watching me fail! On the other hand, there's another lady who will say things like "why aren't they listening to you? They are supposed to listen!" Once she actually googled "how to make scouts listen to you" and stuck her phone in my face and suggested I try the same. (She wasn't being bitchy, she really thought she was helping me.) My response was basically, if you think you can do it, please do!

Some packs have parents each pick a den meeting to lead so the Den leader is more like a manager.  I have seen some games for adults to pick which meeting you get to lead.  People can trade.  It spreads out the load so the Den leader doesn't have to do everything.  
We are starting this with Lions this year and hopefully it will continue. 

[funchicken]

Okay, so I have Girl Scouts, but one thing we do at the beginning of the year is have the kids break into smaller groups, make a list of respectful vs. disrespectful behavior for meetings, then each group picks a spokesperson, and we come back together to share ideas. We write a "behavior contract" on a big piece of poster board, and the girls sign it.

Can you break the kids into smaller groups within the meeting, give them an activity and have parents or older scouts supervise the groups? We sometimes set up stations and have smaller groups rotate through each station. We meet right after school, so we usually start our meetings with unstructured social time and a snack. We do things outside whenever possible, and we break activities up into 15-20 minute blocks(they're all 4th graders). What's the age range? I know nothing about Boy Scouts:)

[waverly]

funchicken, I think its grade level. For example, we are in Tigers- first grade. I know nothing also, but I am learning.

[miranda]

funchicken, I also have 4th graders. I've never done the respect contract though I have read about it. I also try to split up the hour into small blocks (talk time for no more than 5-10 minutes, then activity, then wrapup). It's really hard to get much done because we only have 60 minutes, and we meet at 6:00 on a Friday when the boys are all emotionally spent.

[waverly]

miranda, can you meet at a different day like Sunday at 4 or something?

[funchicken]

miranda, that is a tough time of day. I have a couple of ideas, but I have to run to a meeting. More soon...

[funchicken]

miranda, I don't know if it's possible for you to run the meetings this way, but can you break them up into teams of 4-6 kids, and then have one or two parents overseeing each team? The teams can come up with team names if they want and choose roles (team leader/spokesperson, instruction reader, supply helper, cleanup etc). This would probably be an activity in itself that would take up a big chunk of meeting time one week. They could be rotating roles, so a different kid gets to be the "team leader" each time.

If you printed instructions for the activities for each meeting one of the kids can read the instructions to the group, and parents can help make sure they're on the right track. Then you can sort of float among the groups and oversee things to make sure the activity is running smoothly and help re-direct the squirrely kids.

In a couple of weeks one of the teachers at our school is doing a training for the Girl Scout leaders on managing groups of kids. I'm hoping to get some helpful tips from her

[miranda]

Thank you all so much for your suggestions. I have really struggled with the current structure of the Pack, and how much I want to invest in changing the current culture. I'm kindof stuck with the meeting time and size of the den. Maybe a den of this size is simply impossible to run efficiently, but I'd like to think not. I've been watching carefully other teacher's methods. It seems like the ones with the most success are very calm and collected by nature. DH and I run on nerves and adrenalin. DH has taken more of a backseat because I keep telling him he can't be yelling at the boys all the time. I have to try really hard to give more praise than criticism. By "criticism" I mean "put down the piano" or "let go of his hair."

[funchicken]

To answer the original question about how we run campouts: we're part of a Service Unit that primarily serves one area (5 schools). We have 500 girls in our SU, so we only organize big encampments every two years, but there are other camping opportunities within our council. SU encampments usually require that we stay within a certain girl to adult ratio, and other than leaders and designated volunteers, extra parents don't attend.

Troop camping is organized by individual troop leaders, and you have to do a 30 hour training course to become camp certified. Part of that is because we don't usually have parents with us. My troop is doing its first solo camping trip this weekend, so I'll let you know how it goes The Girl Scout camps have a lot of different options for camping (lodges, glen shelters, tree houses, hammocks, tents), so it's sort of up to the individual troop to decide how to do things. You still don't get any sleep, though

[miranda]

Oct 6, 2017 7:01:04 GMT -5 funchicken said:

To answer the original question about how we run campouts: we're part of a Service Unit that primarily serves one area (5 schools). We have 500 girls in our SU, so we only organize big encampments every two years, but there are other camping opportunities within our council. SU encampments usually require that we stay within a certain girl to adult ratio, and other than leaders and designated volunteers, extra parents don't attend.

Troop camping is organized by individual troop leaders, and you have to do a 30 hour training course to become camp certified. Part of that is because we don't usually have parents with us. My troop is doing its first solo camping trip this weekend, so I'll let you know how it goes The Girl Scout camps have a lot of different options for camping (lodges, glen shelters, tree houses, hammocks, tents), so it's sort of up to the individual troop to decide how to do things. You still don't get any sleep, though

That sounds fun- and well organized!! There aren't many (any?) cub opportunities for camping without a parent that I've been told about, which is interesting. Even the 3 night summer camps or winter camps require a parent. Day camps are usually a ratio of 1:4 for the older kids.

Just found out instead of our traditional campout our Pack is going to a Camporee (like your big encampments). And they changed the date so we will be in NYC and unable to attend. I'm side-eyeing it a little- it's set up like a Halloween carnival with bounce houses, trick or treating, and carnival games. Granted my kid would have a blast, it seems a bit antithetical to the traditional campout.

[auntie]

Well, well, well.

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scouts-will-admit-girls-allow-them-earn-eagle-scout-n809836

[waverly]

I just saw that. I guess I prefer DD to join girl scouts, but since her brother is in boy scouts, I could see it being convenient if kids could do events together.

[funchicken]

We discussed this at our last team meeting. I think the organizations offer different things. My girls will be sticking with Girl Scouts

[auntie]

Basically, DS’s den all had a little sister. Our den meetings were always coed. Rachel, Ruth, Katerina and Lauren went everywhere with us. Lauren and Katerina became Ventures at 14.

[mightymaude]

miranda, first, a confession: I haven't read all replies.

I believe your son is the same age as mine--now a Web 1?

DH has successfully managed his equally large den for the last two years by splitting the den into patrols like if they were boy scouts. He assigns a parent to each patrol each meeting and gives them expicit instructions on what should be done. Every patrol does the same stuff, but in small group vs. big group. It is like having three dens in one, but they all meet at the same time. He swaps up the patrol groupings every month or so.

[mightymaude]

As far as girls joining go, we have known about the impending decision for a year (insider info) and have been eagerly anticipating. Girl Scouts was a horrible disaster for DD and she has been wishing she were a boy so she could be a Cub Scout. Our pack is very liberal so we expect it to be no problem at all.

[auntie]

Oct 11, 2017 18:55:17 GMT -5 mightymaude said:

As far as girls joining go, we have known about the impending decision for a year (insider info) and have been eagerly anticipating. Girl Scouts was a horrible disaster for DD and she has been wishing she were a boy so she could be a Cub Scout. Our pack is very liberal so we expect it to be no problem at all.

Yeah, I like who they've been doing focus groups and "talking about the possibility" when it was pretty obvious this is the chosen strategy to shore up dropping enrollment all along.

I don't feel like they've firmed up the logistics of the transition in 5th grade yet. I have yet to get a firm answer on what that will look like. The BSA actually has a fair amount of experience in coed camping because of their teen programming- our council has several Crews and a Ship that are for 14-21 and coed plus a number of Explorer Posts which are a more hybrid BSA/community program. But they will allow girls to earn Eagle rank in some way. I am not looking at the circus around the first "girl to make Eagle".

I've been LMAO listening to the talking heads on the various news outlets talk about scouting and get it so wrong. 

[miranda]

Oct 11, 2017 18:51:27 GMT -5 mightymaude said:

miranda , first, a confession: I haven't read all replies.

I believe your son is the same age as mine--now a Web 1?

DH has successfully managed his equally large den for the last two years by splitting the den into patrols like if they were boy scouts. He assigns a parent to each patrol each meeting and gives them expicit instructions on what should be done. Every patrol does the same stuff, but in small group vs. big group. It is like having three dens in one, but they all meet at the same time. He swaps up the patrol groupings every month or so.

This a very common-sense idea, thank you! It's basically what I try to do at each meeting, but I'm not that organized. I'm going to ask for a second classroom, also, and make half go to another room.

[funchicken]

We survived our first troop campout! Prior to the campout I felt a little overwhelmed by all of the information I received when I did my training. I think it made troop camping seem more daunting than it needs to be. We ended up having to relocate and do a "Camp In" in a GS lodge because of bad weather, but the girls were able to practice setting up tents inside the lodge, and they did all of the meal prep and clean up. The weather cooperated enough that we were able to do a campfire outside. They want to stay in the treehouses for our next trip, and I'm feeling more confident

[miranda]

My first thought when I heard the news was "OMG I wanna be a den leader of a girl den."

Then I got less excited when I thought about the logistics. I foresee the girl dens pitted against the boy dens. I foresee the men in our Pack being annoyed by the involvement of girls. I foresee a girl den being viewed as overachievers. Or maybe I'm projecting. DH is an Eagle and watched the news last night looking bemused. He didn't say anything but I know he thinks it's a travesty for the Boy Scouts.

But functionally, I think it won't make a big difference. There's nothing we do that requires testosterone. DS has been asking since we joined why there aren't girls in the den. This might even convince him to stay on through Boy Scouts.

[mamaturtle]

DH told me the news about involving girls in Boy Scouting last night.

I told him if I was a teenager all boy crazy I would have wanted to date Boy Scouts and my parents would have gotten to know them because they were so involved in scouting as it is. DH admitted he would have joined Girl Scouts.

Girl Scout membership is cheaper ($25) than Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts ($33 without magazine, with is $41). As auntie, has said this maybe because there is low enrollment. They must be desperate. I am not registered because it is a lot and I can barely afford DS's membership but it is one of the cheapest extracurricular activity compared to athletics.

Cub Scouting seems more attractive because their requirements to achieve belt loops are so minimal and what I remember from Girl Scouting was too broad and too many requirements. I have yet to see what Boy Scout requirements are to earn badges or awards.