The Hate U Give - book club discussion, all welcome to join!

[ufcasey]

Today is the day for our nineth book club discussion! The book picked for this month was The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas.

Just to help get you thinking, if you have a hard time figuring out what you want to say, there are some questions below. You definitely don't have to answer any of them! (I got these online this time! LOL!)

Things to potentially consider:
1. As Starr and Khalil listen to Tupac, Khalil explains what Tupac said "Thug Life" meant. Why do you think the author chose to put this in the book and use it as the title?

2. Starr pledges to “never be quiet” (Chapter 26, p. 438) - what's your thoughts on this for a teenager and in society today.

3. In navigating issues of race relations, Thomas gave her MC the ability to speak from a variety of perspectives: as a young black girl living in a tough urban setting, as a student in a suburban and predominantly white school, and as the niece of a police officer. How do you think this impacted the story and the reader's ability to relate to the story?

4. Starr intentionally speaks differently when she is at home with her urban black friends as opposed to when she is at school with her suburban white prep school friends. How did Thomas employ the idea of “voice” in writing to show character and conflict?

5. What scene in the book stood out the most to you? Why?

6. In the car when Starr and her boyfriend discuss racial stereotypes/questions - have you ever had conversations like that with someone of another race? Do you think they are helpful or hurtful?

7. How do you think inequality and intersections between wealth, family life, and race was portrayed in this book? 


All thoughts and opinions are welcome!
Sorry this was a week late! We'll be back on schedule this month, discussing A Gentleman in Moscow on 10/25

[ufcasey]

Tagging people who seem to have read the book:
underwaterrhymes , jr009j , leeba25 , socratic , Black Lavender , isabel , Jalapeñomel, abs , cvillern , andwhat , aurora , sugarbear , froggy76 , lexus , 05heel , Queen Mamadala , pandora89 , rainbowchip , snshne322 , minzy , AJL , darnkatz , charlatti , expectantsteelerfan , anglashly , hermione , starlily , bex , rootbeerfloat , hurricanedrunk , ally , travella , mrspez07 ,

[bex]

My thoughts were all over the place with this book so these responses may be jumbled. I also don't remember any of the names.

1) I thought the title and what it meant was pretty perfect for this story. thug obviously brings to mind a certain stereotype, so I thought it was an interesting choice because of that, and then the way Khalil explains the phrase it makes you look at white people almost immediately in the opening chapter, in a "we do this" kind of way. I thought that was important. Who is giving the hate? Its the white people. the hate we have given black people over centuries has created "thugs."


3) I thought the perspectives part of this was really important, both because Starr's viewpoint on the situation changed slightly depending on who she was talking to, and because as a white woman I could feel my perspective shift as well. We still see too many people on facebook or wherever complaining about "why is everything about race" and "cant we just have one thing that's not about race." so I thought Starr's overtly racist friend (whose name I cant remember) was kind of "all white people" - the ones who care about racial issues kind of, and we'll talk about it with you in the right setting, but now we're beyond that and we had a black president so OMG WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT IT. That kind of person. And she didn't really want to learn or grow from any discussion. So I think seeing how Starr dealt with that, versus her boyfriend, versus her uncle was interesting.

I also thought it was interesting that they made the uncle a cop. In some ways it almost felt like a cop out, to make it an easy "we don't hate all cops" thing, but in other ways I thought it was an avenue for good discussion and perspectives. You had her father, who is now law abiding, the uncle, who was a cop, and then her older brother who was trying to figure out his place, and Starr, and I thought the interactions there were all very interesting and opened up a different line of thought.


I thought the code switching was very authentic. I thought it just sort of brought home that Starr was two very different people depending on her surroundings and who she was with, and part of the conflict was to bring those two people together into one person.

The scene that stood out the most to me was when Khalil was shot. I just kept thinking of so many of the black victims of police violence, and Philando Castile in particular.

7) re: wealth and race etc, I thought it was made pretty clear that race "trumps" all, which we have heard WOC say on this board over and over again. I don't feel particularly qualified to talk about it more than that.

[sunbutter]

I enjoyed this book. Timely, relevant, significant and has potential to spark importance conversations, particularly among young readers. Technically, I enjoyed the writing style. For me, the relationships and characters stood out the most, beyond the setting and specific events.

The one thing that bothered me is that it felt soft or watered down, like to reach more people, the main characters had to be really likable, beyond just relatable. Despite the two horrible tragedies in Starr's life, almost everything else was pretty rosey. Solid family dynamics, two parents who are thriving in their careers and are able to move out of the poor neighborhood, has some great friends and a seemingly perfect boyfriend, lots of other supportive adults around her...
I just think that many people who have gone through similar situations just don't have it so well in all these areas. This topic is darker to me than the way this story was presented.

3. The different perspectives did help the story capture the many complexities of this societal issue. I personally related to the story more because I can absolutely imagine a girl like Starr coming from my area of the country and living that double life, one in her neighborhood and one at private school. I have actually heard similar stories from older black men in my city. I did appreciate the storyline around the uncle and the challenges that he had in his roles - like Starr - having to play one role at work, one at home, one at his childhood neighborhood - and then when those roles have potential to conflict or intersect.

5. The scenes with Starr and her Father resonated the most with me. They were the most palpable and believable to me. In addition, his desire to protect his family and support his wife while still supporting his neighborhood and not wanting to feel like he "gave up on it" really stood out for me.

6. Yes, I have but usually more cautiously on my part in comparison to her boyfriend. I haven't started the conversation but rather have let the other person lead. I think if the conversation stays honest and respectful, it is absolutely helpful.

7. Like I mentioned above, I think the story was softened a bit and probably didn't represent the reality of these inequalities and intersections in the most realistic way.

[rootbeerfloat]

Besides the scene where Khalil gets shot, the scene where the police handcuff the dad stuck out to me. I could feel his fear that he would be shot and that his kids would have to witness that. And you had Seven and Starr who had already had "the talk," but Sekani who hadn't yet, and it was just heartbreaking.

I appreciated her parents, too. They weren't perfect, and they didn't agree on how best to take care of their family and their community at the same time, but they were good parents. The uncle was also interesting in how he was often conflicted or stuck in the middle.

I've had plenty of conversations with people of others races and about race, but I'm a POC. I think they are important, even if they are sometimes (or lots of times) unproductive. Starr's different voices and how she behaves in different situations and even talks about racial issues felt real to me. I seriously wanted to punch her friend in the face lol.

[ufcasey]

So I really, really liked this book. I listened to the audiobook for this one, and I think that was a great choice because the narrator did an excellent job with it.

I truly felt for Starr as she witnessed Khalil get murdered, had to deal with the police, and then waiting for justice that never came. I thought the smaller interactions with her family, her friends, and her boyfriend weren't just after thoughts, they really made up most of the story. Dealing with being in an interracial relationship, having to act differently around classmates at school versus neighborhood friends, and using her voice to speak up for yourself/friends/community are all things I will say I personally have no experience with, but it all felt very realistic when I was reading it.

I think this book was a LOT better than Jodi Picoult's book about racism, Small Great Things, that's for sure. Maybe it was because Picoult is white and can't really write from experience for this deeply personal topic, or maybe it's just because I thought it was weird that a white woman was basically monetarily profiting off of a story about racism, no matter what her good intentions were. Anyways, compare to that book this one was much better, despite being YA.

I really felt for Starr's parents as they tried to raise their kids to not be seen as 'less than' but still keep them tied to who they are and where they come from. Thinking about it and then hearing ignorant white people say that people just need to 'raise their children right' just pisses me the hell off, because they don't know how easy white parents have it.

[brewco]

ufcasey, I feel like you took words right out of my mouth. I thought this book did a great job of connecting so many issues related to racism, especially in our current time. I also read Small Great Things and had the same exact feelings as you- I was bothered that the story was told from the perspective of a black woman, written by a white woman who really had no basis for any of the experiences she was describing.

The Hate U Give is the only book I have actively recommended to people this year.

[aurora]

I also really liked this book. I think the author did an excellent job making a very difficult subject feel authentic -writing from the perspective of a teenager, no less! - and motivating a sense that we have to do something about police brutality against people of color. We have a lot of conversations about race on CEP and I could definitely relate a lot of the book to those conversations.

[aurora]

I think the part about Star's two voices was one of my favorite things about the book (in terms of being really well done). My high school had a significant population of black students (maybe 25%, so a minority but higher than the US population overall), but only a small number took the classes I took and hung out in my circle. I didn't think much about it as a teenager, but as I've learned more about race I have wondered if they felt similarly and talked in one voice with me and another with family.

I also wondered for a while if Thomas would give Khalil justice, which wouldn't be realistic but would maybe be more motivational for speaking out, or take the more realistic route. I think she made the right choice.

[oliviapope]

[quote author="ufcasey" source="/post/12867858/thread"


I think this book was a LOT better than Jodi Picoult's book about racism, Small Great Things, that's for sure. Maybe it was because Picoult is white and can't really write from experience for this deeply personal topic, or maybe it's just because I thought it was weird that a white woman was basically monetarily profiting off of a story about racism, no matter what her good intentions were. Anyways, compare to that book this one was much better, despite being YA.



I really hated Jodi Picoult's book and this is one reason why.

[oliviapope]

Oct 4, 2017 15:55:03 GMT -5 sunbutter said:

I enjoyed this book. Timely, relevant, significant and has potential to spark importance conversations, particularly among young readers. Technically, I enjoyed the writing style. For me, the relationships and characters stood out the most, beyond the setting and specific events.

The one thing that bothered me is that it felt soft or watered down, like to reach more people, the main characters had to be really likable, beyond just relatable. Despite the two horrible tragedies in Starr's life, almost everything else was pretty rosey. Solid family dynamics, two parents who are thriving in their careers and are able to move out of the poor neighborhood, has some great friends and a seemingly perfect boyfriend, lots of other supportive adults around her...
I just think that many people who have gone through similar situations just don't have it so well in all these areas. This topic is darker to me than the way this story was presented.

3. The different perspectives did help the story capture the many complexities of this societal issue. I personally related to the story more because I can absolutely imagine a girl like Starr coming from my area of the country and living that double life, one in her neighborhood and one at private school. I have actually heard similar stories from older black men in my city. I did appreciate the storyline around the uncle and the challenges that he had in his roles - like Starr - having to play one role at work, one at home, one at his childhood neighborhood - and then when those roles have potential to conflict or intersect.

5. The scenes with Starr and her Father resonated the most with me. They were the most palpable and believable to me. In addition, his desire to protect his family and support his wife while still supporting his neighborhood and not wanting to feel like he "gave up on it" really stood out for me.

6. Yes, I have but usually more cautiously on my part in comparison to her boyfriend. I haven't started the conversation but rather have let the other person lead. I think if the conversation stays honest and respectful, it is absolutely helpful.

7. Like I mentioned above, I think the story was softened a bit and probably didn't represent the reality of these inequalities and intersections in the most realistic way.

I disagree with you here. I feel like the author was trying to make a point, that no matter how successful a POC you are, it means nothing when you get pulled over.

[sunbutter]

Oct 4, 2017 22:55:05 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

Oct 4, 2017 15:55:03 GMT -5 sunbutter said:

I enjoyed this book. Timely, relevant, significant and has potential to spark importance conversations, particularly among young readers. Technically, I enjoyed the writing style. For me, the relationships and characters stood out the most, beyond the setting and specific events.

The one thing that bothered me is that it felt soft or watered down, like to reach more people, the main characters had to be really likable, beyond just relatable. Despite the two horrible tragedies in Starr's life, almost everything else was pretty rosey. Solid family dynamics, two parents who are thriving in their careers and are able to move out of the poor neighborhood, has some great friends and a seemingly perfect boyfriend, lots of other supportive adults around her...
I just think that many people who have gone through similar situations just don't have it so well in all these areas. This topic is darker to me than the way this story was presented.

3. The different perspectives did help the story capture the many complexities of this societal issue. I personally related to the story more because I can absolutely imagine a girl like Starr coming from my area of the country and living that double life, one in her neighborhood and one at private school. I have actually heard similar stories from older black men in my city. I did appreciate the storyline around the uncle and the challenges that he had in his roles - like Starr - having to play one role at work, one at home, one at his childhood neighborhood - and then when those roles have potential to conflict or intersect.

5. The scenes with Starr and her Father resonated the most with me. They were the most palpable and believable to me. In addition, his desire to protect his family and support his wife while still supporting his neighborhood and not wanting to feel like he "gave up on it" really stood out for me.

6. Yes, I have but usually more cautiously on my part in comparison to her boyfriend. I haven't started the conversation but rather have let the other person lead. I think if the conversation stays honest and respectful, it is absolutely helpful.

7. Like I mentioned above, I think the story was softened a bit and probably didn't represent the reality of these inequalities and intersections in the most realistic way.

I disagree with you here. I feel like the author was trying to make a point, that no matter how successful a POC you are, it means nothing when you get pulled over.

I hear you. I'm sure that was part of the message but the choice of the victims suggests to me that it wasnt that simple. Starr wasn't pulled over. Her mom wasn't pulled over. Those unfairly suspected of something were tattooed, from the poor 'hood, etc..

[travella]

I didn't care for this book; however, I can see why people like it. The book was too YA for me. I got caught up with all the annoying YA aspects of the book and couldn't look past them.

Another thing that bothered me about this book is the lack of hope for change in the end. I guess with all that is going on in the world right now I need hope. So I guess this book just came across my lap at the wrong time.

[ufcasey]

Oct 5, 2017 8:07:53 GMT -5 travella said:

I didn't care for this book; however, I can see why people like it. The book was too YA for me. I got caught up with all the annoying YA aspects of the book and couldn't look past them.

Another thing that bothered me about this book is the lack of hope for change in the end. I guess with all that is going on in the world right now I need hope. So I guess this book just came across my lap at the wrong time.

I do wish this book wasn't YA, but lots of adults read Harry Potter and the Hunger Games etc, so I think leaving it YA opens it up for potentially more readership. And honestly, I would much rather have teenagers be reading this than half the tripe that's out there which is generally just romance driven - there's a big hole to fill for YA books that deal with real topics that are actually applicable to teenagers' lives and not just some love triangle fantasy world LOL.


I can definitely see how it would be nicer to read a more uplifting story where justice finally gets served. We all want that in real life, that's for sure. But I think the author was trying to be more realistic with the entire plot so pinning a happily ever after at the end would have been weird and would have maybe been misinterpreted as some kind of statement about how if you only did x, y, and z you could get justice. I think leaving the 'hope' to be hope for the future, fits more with the tone of the rest of the book. After all, her one racist jerk of a friend never really became that much less of a racist jerk, and ain't that sadly true to life too?

 

[monkeyfeet]

Another one who really liked this book. I read it before it was a book club pick so I don't remember many details.
I agree with Aurora that I thought Starr's two voices were powerful!

I also just read Small Great Things for my book club. The similarities were striking. I liked that one too, and I understand everyone's pov on a white women writing from a black woman's perspective, but I also think Jodi Picoult is going to reach a lot more people we want to be reached than Angie Thomas...just because Picoult has such a following. I definitely liked Thomas' ending due to the reality.

[travella]

Oct 5, 2017 10:51:58 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

Oct 5, 2017 8:07:53 GMT -5 travella said:

I didn't care for this book; however, I can see why people like it. The book was too YA for me. I got caught up with all the annoying YA aspects of the book and couldn't look past them.

Another thing that bothered me about this book is the lack of hope for change in the end. I guess with all that is going on in the world right now I need hope. So I guess this book just came across my lap at the wrong time.

I do wish this book wasn't YA, but lots of adults read Harry Potter and the Hunger Games etc, so I think leaving it YA opens it up for potentially more readership. And honestly, I would much rather have teenagers be reading this than half the tripe that's out there which is generally just romance driven - there's a big hole to fill for YA books that deal with real topics that are actually applicable to teenagers' lives and not just some love triangle fantasy world LOL.


I can definitely see how it would be nicer to read a more uplifting story where justice finally gets served. We all want that in real life, that's for sure. But I think the author was trying to be more realistic with the entire plot so pinning a happily ever after at the end would have been weird and would have maybe been misinterpreted as some kind of statement about how if you only did x, y, and z you could get justice. I think leaving the 'hope' to be hope for the future, fits more with the tone of the rest of the book. After all, her one racist jerk of a friend never really became that much less of a racist jerk, and ain't that sadly true to life too?

 

I agree with you. Like I said I think my problem with the book was mostly that it came across my lap at the wrong time. 15 years earlier and I think I would have really enjoyed the book.

[rainbowchip]

I need to get this book for people in my family. Especially my mother. She is one of those old white ladies who think there is no such thing as white privlege (because she grew up white and poor) and makes up excuses for police killing POC while berating "them" for riots.

I think this book illistrates perfectly what I've been trying to explain to her foe years now.

[aurora]

Oct 5, 2017 11:17:03 GMT -5 monkeyfeet said:

Another one who really liked this book. I read it before it was a book club pick so I don't remember many details.
I agree with Aurora that I thought Starr's two voices were powerful!

I also just read Small Great Things for my book club. The similarities were striking. I liked that one too, and I understand everyone's pov on a white women writing from a black woman's perspective, but I also think Jodi Picoult is going to reach a lot more people we want to be reached than Angie Thomas...just because Picoult has such a following. I definitely liked Thomas' ending due to the reality.

Which itself is a problem! I mean, I know Jodi Picoult has been writing for a while and it takes time to develop a following, but the systemic issues in publication and promotion of books make it harder for authors of color to gain that following.

[expectantsteelerfan]

My IRL book club read this book a few months ago. I thought it was well-done overall for an YA book, but didn't quite hold up as an adult book. I feel like she did a great job with the overall topic, but there were too many unbelievable characters or conveniences, and a lack of characterization for the secondary characters. If I remember correctly, my main problems were believing that a former 'thug' would be able to completely leave that life behind, yet still retain power and prestige in the neighborhood (her father), and that her white boyfriend who had no clue what her life was really like would just be cool with everything once he found out.
Also, when I saw how the title was spelled, I almost vetoed the book because I hate abbreviated convenience spelling, but once I read about the reason for the title I was much more accepting of it.

[sunbutter]

Oct 12, 2017 11:08:50 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

My IRL book club read this book a few months ago. I thought it was well-done overall for an YA book, but didn't quite hold up as an adult book. I feel like she did a great job with the overall topic, but there were too many unbelievable characters or conveniences, and a lack of characterization for the secondary characters. If I remember correctly, my main problems were believing that a former 'thug' would be able to completely leave that life behind, yet still retain power and prestige in the neighborhood (her father), and that her white boyfriend who had no clue what her life was really like would just be cool with everything once he found out.

This perfectly captures the thoughts that I had a difficult time articulating.

[charlatti]

Oct 12, 2017 11:08:50 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

My IRL book club read this book a few months ago. I thought it was well-done overall for an YA book, but didn't quite hold up as an adult book. I feel like she did a great job with the overall topic, but there were too many unbelievable characters or conveniences, and a lack of characterization for the secondary characters. If I remember correctly, my main problems were believing that a former 'thug' would be able to completely leave that life behind, yet still retain power and prestige in the neighborhood (her father), and that her white boyfriend who had no clue what her life was really like would just be cool with everything once he found out.
Also, when I saw how the title was spelled, I almost vetoed the book because I hate abbreviated convenience spelling, but once I read about the reason for the title I was much more accepting of it.

This didn't bother me because I have no personal experience with that life and the author does know it (I'm basing that on what I read in her author profile and in interviews). I didn't get the impression she was doing it for convenience of the narrative; if it works in the real life world she knows, it probably works.

[Nonny]

I finally finished it the other night, and can come into this thread now.

I agree with whoever said it's timely and relevant.  Highlighting Starr's struggle to try to fit into two different worlds (her neighborhood and her school) when she doesn't really feel like she belongs in either felt very real. But I also felt like the portrayal of her life was very rosy - everyone of her friends (except racist bitch Hailey) and family loved and respected her, and I feel like most people don't have that level of picture perfect relationship dynamics. I did decide in the end though, that because it was YA it was necessary to give Starr those relationships so that an otherwise depressing book didn't become mired down in tragedy even more.